Example of handguns not being "show stoppers".

Maybe I’m missing something but you’re missing the point.

STOPPING POWER

Not killing power

If I read your account right two shots and your friend was dropping. That seems to indicate that the rounds did their job.

I don’t know about others, but I’m looking to end an attack not kill someone. If someone dies, that’s just an effect of being shot and losing blood. The reality is I’ve been on the wrong end of a gunman shooting up a classroom and all BS aside, the only thing that matters is getting home to your family safe.

You also supported the point I make over and over

SHOT PLACEMENT

Your friend died
Thankfully for him and his family EMS was able to revive him. The reality is that the wounds would have ended his life had EMS not been there or had been there slower.

Frankly I don’t care what caliber one uses. I go back and forth between number or rounds to carry vs caliber. With what I saw in DC yesterday with BLM blocking streets and attacking people in cars, I’m leaning towards as many rounds as I can reasonably carry if I have to head to a populated area.

hope he recovers quick. do u know why the shooting happened. i remember a class i took when i was in the fire department. something like 90% live from gun shot wounds if they make it to the ER.

beeenbag said:

Yes, it started as a disagreement over money regarding their co-owned business. The shooter was intoxicated on prescription nerve pills. He walked in the door and sucker punched my friend, completely blindsided and un expecting, then drew his gun and started shooting. My friend was unarmed, but after watching the video of it, there would have been no chance to even draw a defensive firearm.

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dam wish him the best. sometimes letting it be know u carry a gun may help. but when someone is on stuff like that there are not thinking clear or on the same planet.

Then there's stories of folks who got shot with one round of 22LR, and keeled over dead.
One Indian Trapper, a woman, killed a record-size Grizzly with a single-shot 22 Short rifle, back in the 50s.

If pistols were the effective be-all-end-all, we wouldn't have rifles, now, would we?

Indeed, being thrown back against a wall in a spray of blood after being shot is strictly movie/tv fancy. Sadly, that’s where 90% of Americans get their ideas about guns and shooting, crime and cops, etc.

It’s fairly common to have people shot multiple times with “duty quality” calibers and ammo and keep fighting/shooting/running etc. that’s why when you read “ ### was shot 6 times” it doesn’t faze people in the know... but it reads like crazy “firepower fueled overkill” in a paper to those who’s total life experiences include NYPD Blue and Dirty Harry.

Been to LOTS of shootings, homicides, suicides, etc. A “one shot stop” can occur, and I’ve seen a few... some were coconut shots, others in the 10 ring. The saddest was a 15 year old who shot an ice cream man during a robbery, the single .380 fired just hit the poor guy right in the heart and he was done. I’ve also arrived to find a guy die after being shot through the knee with a .223, an attacking 120 lb rottie drop from a single homeowners .380 fmj, a light 20 ga target load of #8 shot completely decapitate a 14 year old gangster who was being shown another gangsters “newly acquired” shotgun, an elderly mans suicide with a Wlidey .475, a long time drug addict taking 13 rounds of 9mm fmj in the torso (13 total) and not die, ad nauseum.

Should one ever be in a situation to need to fire their own gun to end a deadly threat plan on shooting more than once or twice, because you may have to fire your gun again and again until you are no longer in danger.

Stay safe!

i went to 3 medical calls for attempted suicide. one 25acp id not go throw the scull. a 12ga to the face blew of most of the face. and a judge 410 with buck shot one went it to the scull rest took the jaw off. these people survived the two with the shot guns were mutilated for life. a kid i went to school with was shot with a 308 win that came tho the house during hunting season. hit his in the back of the head and came out his eye. he use to like showing off by taking his eye out in school.

here in new york we can only have 10 rounds. so 45 makes sense if u can control it id like to get a gun in 357 sig if i can afforded one lol or 45 acp. the sig may give more trauma then a 40 s&w.

Caliber and guns for self defense have changed many times over the years. Most often it's due to trends set off by an event, or something new that has hit the market. And then you can blame Gun Rags for some of the BS trends started, they get paid to write sales adds.
Most everyone remembers the FBI shootout in Pinecrest, Florida. Platt was a dead man at the beginning of the fight. He was hit with a fatal shot from a 9mm, but he continued to fight. he shot 6 Agents, killing two, before the fight was over. He would have killed more if he had not run out of ammo. This event brought the 10mm to the kitchen table. It became the round that everyone needed. But as time went by it was discovered that it was to powerful for most to handle. Then we got the 40 S&W, but a lot of people refused to put down their 45 Autos. Most of these were called old farts. Then the wonder nines hit the market. Every Gun Rag had an article on 9mm vs 45 Auto showing us how much better the 9mm was. Then the Clinton assault weapons band killed the wonder 9 craze. Then the market was hit with compacts and sub-compacts in every caliber you could think of. Another trend set into motion by events, but this time it was political.
Then police departments started going to 40 S&W, and so a lot of people followed. Now police departments are going to 9mm and people are following. One of the reasons for police going to 9mm is due to new and effective bullets. And that most officers can shoot better with a 9mm pistol.
Now will we ever see an end to these trends and events that change what is popular to carry? I don't think so, but I will assure you that if you are over 40yo and don't go with what is new, you will be called an old fart.
#1 Be able to shoot and hit with what you carry.
#2 more rounds is always better.
#3 Quick and easy reloading is always a good thing.
#4 If ever in a fight, fight to win.
#5 You have an 80% chance of surviving if shot with a handgun, but so does the bad guy.

Prior to 1994 local LE officers bought their own guns and could carry anything they could qualify with. In 1994 the city PD went with 9mm Smith 5906's and have since replaced them with Glock 17's. The County PD, Sheriff's office, plus Fish and Game all went to Glock's in 40 S&W. The Georgia State patrol can't make up their minds. They were issuing Smith 4506's in 45 ACP, but went to Glock's in 40 S&W before Gaston gave them Glocks in 45 GAP which they tried for a few years before going to Glock 17's in 9mm currently.

Since 1994 we've had a dozen officers have to fire their weapons. Six involved 9mm, 5 were 40 S&W, and in one case several of each. In all but one case no more than 2 shots were fired and the bad guy/gal and was dead when they hit the ground. The only time multiple shots were fired involved a mentally disturbed lady who refused to stop. After a 20 mile chase involving multiple agencies they finally got her off the road, but she refused to exit the vehicle. When one officer broke out her window she fired a shot at him and missed. Four officers, one each from the county, city, Sheriff's office, and GSP, then fired 3 shots each in less than 2 seconds, all 12 shots hit.

We've had no situations where 45 was actually used, but I'm certain the results would have been exactly the same. But 45 couldn't have possibly have been any better. In fact the Sheriff's department is going to change to 9mm., probably in 2020. I have no idea what the County is planning. They've researched data from agencies who are using 9mm they see no difference in effectiveness between 9mm, 40, and 45. And while the extra ammo may not be needed, it never hurts, and there is no downside.

What we essentially have is a hole being poked... no massive energy transfer, no rapid drop in blood pressure, but a hole. We can discuss kinetic foot pounds of energy all day long, but in the end, no carry gun is going to deliver enough energy to incapacitate someone. Yes CNS shots will end the fight, but I'm not counting on that.

That is what I have always thought. Handguns poke holes. The more holes in critical areas the quicker you can end the fight. CNS end it fast. But people are moving all over the place when bullets start flying.
Might be a bad thing. Wyatt Earp was the only one not hit at the OK Corral and he was the only one who stood still.

beeenbag said:

What we essentially have is a hole being poked... no massive energy transfer, no rapid drop in blood pressure, but a hole. We can discuss kinetic foot pounds of energy all day long, but in the end, no carry gun is going to deliver enough energy to incapacitate someone. Yes CNS shots will end the fight, but I'm not counting on that.

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A bud of mine, his sister decided to commit suicide in front of her ex boy friends house. The relationship had broken up, by him, and she wanted to make him feel sorry. She shot herself in the chest, through the heart in fact, with a 22 lr pistol. A passer by heard her screaming inside her car, called the cops, and they got her to the hospital. The surgeon decided not to operate, because that might disturb the blood clot that had formed,plugging the small wound. I don't know when or if they recovered the slug, but, she survived.

Now, if the wound was sufficient that a blood clot could not have formed, then she would have died. Blood loss, as the lower article tells, is fatal. All you are doing with a handgun is poking a hole in something and trying to make it bleed enough. The poor guy who was shot in the OP's post, would have died had he not had quick medical attention, primarily to stop bleeding and to introduce blood into the system.


Breaking Point: How Much Blood Can The Human Body Lose?
https://www.medicaldaily.com/breaking-point-how-much-blood-can-human-body-lose-350792

According to the American College of Surgeons’ Advanced Trauma Life Support (ATLS), hemorrhaging can be divided into four classifications of severity. The first class is the least severe, concerning a hemorrhage equal to or lesser than 15 percent of the body’s total blood volume. For reference, when a person donates blood, about eight to 10 percent of the body’s blood is removed. There are generally no symptoms of blood loss at this point, though some may feel slightly faint.

A Class 2 hemorrhage is a loss of 15 to 30 percent of blood volume. This is where symptoms of blood loss begin to manifest. “The body tries to compensate at this point with, among other things, a faster heartbeat to speed oxygen to tissues,” Alton said. “The patient will feel weak, appear pale, and skin will be cool.”

The next level of blood loss occurs with the Class 3 hemorrhage, which references loss of 30 to 40 percent of total blood volume. This could be around 3 to 4 pints of blood, for those keeping track. Blood transfusion is usually necessary with a hemorrhage of this magnitude, according to Alton.

“At this point, the heart will be beating very quickly and is straining to get enough oxygen to tissues,” he said. “Blood pressure drops. Smaller blood vessels are constricting to keep the body core circulation going.”

The final classification of hemorrhaging, Class 4, occurs when a person loses over 40 percent of their blood volume. A hemorrhage so severe requires immediate and major resuscitative help, or else the strain on the body’s circulatory system will be too great to survive. The heart will no longer be able to maintain blood pressure and circulation, Alton said, so organs will fail and the patient will slip into a comatose state preceding death.

We have all been educated by the in print press to think of lethality as easily calculated numbers, KE, particularly, but this is advertising dressed up as psuedo science. You might remember psuedo science being used to sell cigarettes:



In print Gunwriters are shills for the industry, they needed something quick and simple to push product. It sold products, but was all nonsense.

I don't think that there is anyone that you can kill that has protection from a higher source. You can discount this if you want to luck. No issues there, depends on your beliefs. I wish your friend the best. You see people killed with firearms of all calibers from small to large. Placement of course matters. Other variables as well, like movement, position, location, and probably others. For the rest, I will defer to others who know a heck of a lot more than me.

beeenbag said:

The moral of the story is, 5 rounds of well respected ammo, in a midsized service round and service size gun still did not prove fateful.

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Oh, it was fateful all right. It just wasn't fatal (except for the whole "having to be revived from the dead" thing).

Seems to me that particular combination of handgun and ammo did its job.

Lets be reminded that a handgun is the chosen weapon because you can keep it on you more comfortably and ready to hand. It's not the most capable weapon for accuracy or stopping power in all cases. Not at all.

I would suggest a short barreled shotgun aka Shockwave could do a better job - but having it on you while, say, mowing the grass is somewhat more difficult than a pistol. Better the handgun when two pit bulls start circling you than the shotgun next to the bedstand. #1 Buck would be the more preferred solution for that situation, I suppose I might consider a scabbard on the mower to be possible.

One man posted he carried at home all the time and when his wife asked why, he stated that 100% of the home invasions occurred at home. Choose what you will but be prepared to accept compromises that enable your convenience rather than be hampered by a reference standard that is difficult to maintain.

Reminds me of a photo thread where posters put up pics of their preferred shower carry and what box for the gun they used hanging off the shower head. IIRC we have someone who tag lines he keeps his AR in the shower with him - better than a .380 for capacity and stopping power.

When it comes down to choice Call For Fire is the preferred military answer to superior accuracy and stopping power. From there instructing the MG with a target is next, if you have a mortar team employ them, Call for Final Protective Fire is nice to have, aiming your own weapon - usually a carbine or rifle, is often employed, and a handgun for personal defense is pretty much the last choice. This discussion on internet forums tends to resolve around what handgun to use and is often focused on police use. Considering they used .38 Special for decades and found it satisfactory we shouldn't ignore that as a baseline. But how many of us want to tote a .44 Automag or some such?

We don't, we compromise, and that's what we deal with.

My years of deer hunting with various rifles and pistols and studying the effects has taught me that there is no such thing as an instant stopper. If you can shoot a deer through both lungs and the heart with a 30-06 and still watch them run for 150 yards, a 9mm doesn't have a chance. Occasionally you get a hit that knocks them unconscious and the appearance is that it just turns the lights out and they drop where they stand but there is no guarantee of that especially with a pistol. A bullet wound to the vitals just starts the timer for the for the brain to run out of oxygen, sometimes they just loose consciousness first but sometimes not.

This story is a bit gruesome but we learn from experiences so I will tell it anyway.

Bow hunters often say when you shoot a deer with a bow not to even get out of the stand until 30 minutes after you shot it because they will go lay down a hundred yards away and bleed to death. A couple years ago I shot my third deer with a 357 mag revolver. The shot was with a hot loaded 140 grn XTP and went through both lungs dead center and out the other side. I thought I saw him pile up about 50 yards away so I waited 10 minutes and went to look and kicked him up and shot him again quartering away as he got up and ran which entered through his belly, went through the diaphram and ended up in his offside ribs. Waited 10 more minutes and kept looking. He got up again and laid down 100 more yards away. I could see him laying with his head up so I walked a bit closer and shot him in the neck right at about the base of the skull. I walked up to him and he was still alive so I shot him again right through the brain. His muscles all tensed but he did not stop breathing. Waited a couple minutes until I thought he had stopped breathing so i walked up and gave him a nudge with my boot and he kicked back at me and started panting again. I shot him again in the brain from a different angle with a 357 and he still did not die for another couple minutes. The moral of the story is that you can't count on any bullet wound to be instantly fatal. My first shot was fatal but I didn't wait long enough for the timer to go out. I'm probably not going to do any more deer hunting with a 357 revolver either.

There are plenty of real world first hand scenario's where the lights go out instantly, you only need to check The Tube to see for yourself.

Obviously it's not wise to rely solely on shot placement in a SD situation as there will be a host of variables going on. IMHO it's likewise not wise to rely on caliber alone either, within reason of course. I submit capacity is probably just behind shot placement in terms of importance.

What that means in a nut shell is I'd rather have 15rds of 9mm over 8rds of 45, and I'd rather have either of the aforementioned over 30rds of 22.

I know, and have seen, many people survive gunshot wounds to the "A-zone" by both handgun and rifle rounds. It happens- but I'd still rather fight with a handgun- any handgun- than any other implement that I would actually carry around as a civilian.

An interesting video I thought I would share.
There are points I disagree with, but most are spot on.

So we have...
Stopping (Physical and Psychological) Power
Killing Power
Knockdown Power
and now...
Show Stopping Power

I keep telling this to my hog hunters, "If your don't do significant damage to the CNS, directly or indirectly, expect hogs to run." This is in reference to either directly hitting the spinal cord, brain stem, or brain or by indirectly damaging them through hitting an adjoining structure (e.g., vertebrae) or via hydraulic/hydrostatic shock. The same really goes for humans, only with handguns, you aren't apt to get hydrostatic shock. So short of getting CNS damage, don't expect a human to immediately crumple after being shot.