Old Ammo

Malamute · Oct 20, 2018

Alte Schule said:
A few years ago I bought 100 rds of .303 Brit manufactured in 1941 and some 1950's manufactured ammo for my Tokarev.. I know to flush the barrel after shooting vintage ammo and I usually keep a small bottle of water mixed with a small amount of ammonia in my range bag just for that purpose. The last time I shot my Enfield, just 10 rounds, and Tokarev, two magazines, I just plain forgot to flush them. No excuse other than that.
About three months later, when I was gearing up for an outdoor range trip, I picked up the Enfield and a light went on over my head.
What was once a pretty decent bore was now severely pitted making the Enfield worthless. The Tok barrel was just as bad although I was able replace it with a new one that had been sitting in storage for awhile. No more surplus ammo for me....ever.

@Alte Schule What is the exact make, model and year of the Enfield, and what would you take for it since its worthless? Serious question.

Alte Schule · Oct 20, 2018

Malamute said:
@Alte Schule What is the exact make, model and year of the Enfield, and what would you take for it since its worthless? Serious question.

One of our resident THR Alum Enfield experts , Gunny, informed me that it is (was) a No.4 Mark 1. Sorry Malamute but two weeks ago the city Fire Marshall took it off my hands for $200 which is what I paid for it.

Steel Horse Rider · Oct 20, 2018

I have some 7.62 x 54R made in the late 1940's. It shoots just fine.

John Joseph · Oct 21, 2018

The thing is, would you want to rely on aged ammo for the long haul with your own safety on the line?
Would you rely on an aged '47 Hudson Hornet to take you safely down the Pan American Highway(with 71 year old tie rod ends and 71 year old brakes?)

Keeping ammo for plinking is one thing, but stocking ammo for Zombies is another matter.
I shoot the old stuff first. If I find that I've acquired too much of old stuff, that just means I'm not shooting often enough.

Malamute · Oct 21, 2018

Alte Schule said:
One of our resident THR Alum Enfield experts , Gunny, informed me that it is (was) a No.4 Mark 1. Sorry Malamute but two weeks ago the city Fire Marshall took it off my hands for $200 which is what I paid for it.

Thanks. I understand how disheartening it is to see a pitted bore, but Ive had several rifles that shot quite well even with badly pitted bores, so long as the rifling wasnt badly worn at the muzzle, such as from cleaning rods. One Winchester 94 improved noticeably after having 1/8" trimmed from the muzzle and recrowned.

GBExpat · Oct 21, 2018

Alte Schule said:
... What was once a pretty decent bore was now severely pitted making the Enfield worthless. ...

Have you testfired it? Pitted-bore barrels are often surprisingly accurate shooters.

EDIT: I just looked up Brazos Couny, TX ... too bad you don't live on the opposite side of the state where it is probably arid enough that no corrosion would have occurred in your firearms.

Riomouse911 · Oct 21, 2018

I’ve posted before about a batch of surplus .303 I bought (1942 VII stuff I think). It was a hangfire fest when it fired.

I have a bunch of ammo hitting the 15-20 year mark that I need to get out and shoot up and then reload. :thumbup:

Stay safe!

Oldman11 · Oct 21, 2018

I have one box winchester 405 grain blackpowder .45-70 in the two piece box,also a box of 500 grain smokeless 45-70 in the two piece box that will fire without problems. Matter of fact I will use them for deer season this fall.

GBExpat · Oct 21, 2018

I still have some .357 ammo that I loaded (with a Lee Whack-A-Mole loader) about 50 years ago.

These handloads still exist because we learned the hard way that it was better to use the IMR4227 on the .357 rather than the 700x, the latter providing a noticeable sharper and painful aural experience.

I periodically shoot a couple of those old rounds (with plugs & muffs) just for Ss&Gs. They fire fine every time ... and reinforce our decision to put them aside, unfired.

FL-NC · Oct 21, 2018

In my experience, it is mostly about the way the ammo has been stored. I used ammunition deployed in the military that was older than me, especially things like 50 caliber and 40 mm, not to mention items like LAW rockets and demolitions. The US mil is pretty strict about the standards in contracts for how ammunition is packed, and imposes even more standards on themselves when it comes to storage- never had any problems with it working as advertised.

EIB0879 · Oct 21, 2018

My BIL has some 7.62 x 51 match ammo from the 60's he still shoots.

Alte Schule · Oct 21, 2018

[
QUOTE="GBExpat, post: 10948222, member: 55426"]Have you testfired it? Pitted-bore barrels are often surprisingly accurate shooters.

EDIT: I just looked up Brazos Couny, TX ... too bad you don't live on the opposite side of the state where it is probably arid enough that no corrosion would have occurred in your firearms.

[/QUOTE]
Brazos County averages 40-50% humidity. Bring some moisture up from the gulf and several days of 80% to 100% humidity is not unusual especially in the spring, summer and early fall.
I thought the corrosion occurs because of the Fulminate Mercury that was used in the primers of older/surplus ammo and not the weather. My firearm safe(s) are in a temperature controlled environment and I have two Boveda humidity control packs in each one. The ammo was stamped 1942 so there is no telling what temperature extremes that stuff was exposed to in 70 plus years. It all went bang though.

EIB0879 · Oct 21, 2018

When my stepfather died I inherited his gun collection. To keep peace in the family I spread them out among the family. He had a couple of BLRs, one in .308 and one in .243. I kept the .243 for my kids to use and the .308 went to my BIL.

My stepfather used the .308 a lot to deer hunt and never cleaned it. The barrel was pitted and I didn't know thar until my BIL cleaned it. He was bummed at first and then shot it. It turned out to be quite accurate. He uses it in inclement weather and has shot quite a few deer with it.

GBExpat · Oct 21, 2018

Alte Schule said:
I thought the corrosion occurs because of the Fulminate Mercury that was used in the primers of older/surplus ammo and not the weather.

Potassium chlorate in the primer compound provides oxygen atoms upon ignition and what remains is potassium chloride.

Potassium chloride is hygroscopic (like sodium chloride, a.k.a., table salt). It will attract moisture from the air and initiate a Rust Fest in your steel bore (and any other KCl-coated surfaces).

Potassium chloride, by itself, poses no danger to steel so in an arid environment one does not have to rush to remove it.

-----------

BTW, I have read that the mercury in mercuric primers will amalgamate with brass and make it brittle and unsuitable for reloading.

mm93 · Oct 21, 2018

I've got a lot of very old ammo, and most goes off without a hitch. The real issue is loose ammo, or ammo that's not sealed, and I have no idea how it's been stored over the decades. But ammo properly stored has always been good to shoot for me.

mjsdwash · Oct 21, 2018

I have kicked enough bolts open to know that ammo does go bad, and that does not always mean duds.

GBExpat · Oct 21, 2018

re: Mauser type rifles and misfires ...

Rather than counting to 15 (or 20,30,etc) before lifting the bolt to recock and try again, look to see if you have a recock slot milled into your bolt ...

You can use the rim of a cartridge or empty case in one of these slots to recock without unlocking the bolt.

John Joseph · Oct 21, 2018

FL-NC said:
In my experience, it is mostly about the way the ammo has been stored. I used ammunition deployed in the military that was older than me, especially things like 50 caliber and 40 mm, not to mention items like LAW rockets and demolitions. The US mil is pretty strict about the standards in contracts for how ammunition is packed, and imposes even more standards on themselves when it comes to storage- never had any problems with it working as advertised.

The military has highly trained technicians that regularly check on ammo stores for just such reasons.

Slamfire · Oct 21, 2018

MoscowMike said:
Saw a comment the other day about restricting ammunition purchases because the short shelf life would make it effective gun control.

A while back I found 30 rounds of FA 43 45 ACP ammo tucked away in the basement. Yesterday at the range they all went bang just fine. Seemed to have as much recoil as the PMC and Herters I had been shooting. One round didn't eject properly, not sure why, but at 75 years old I'll accept that.

Just keep on shooting old ammunition, maybe you will get lucky blowing your firearm up, like the experience of the people in the following thread:

For those that think old ammo is still ok....
http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/powder-keg/38539-those-think-old-ammo-still-ok-print.html

A buddy of mine took his Sig p220 .45 down the range with us the other weekend. He had some old winchester hollowpoints that looked like they had been buried for 30 years. With myself still being new to guns and shooting, i didnt think anything about it.

Well he took one shot and it blow up in his hand. Now he has shot numerous rounds through this gun without a problem, of course they were new. Anyway, noone was hurt but the sig. This is hte way the gun is stuck in. It will not budge. Id say its a nice new paperweight

Remington 700 Overpressure with 20 year old factory ammunition

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527519

I'm sighting in my Remington 700 BDL .270 / Nikon 3X9 BDC today, and I decided to rotate old stock ammo. In this case, brand new (20 years ago), 130 grain ammo by a well known US ammunition Company. I bought several boxes of this brand, same lot, back in the early 90's after I discovered how wonderful they worked on woodchucks.

So I'm firing my 2nd round... WHAM! My mild .270 rifle bellows and whacks me in the glasses, odd I thought, as my .270's never kick like that.

The bolt won't open. I mean it is JAMMED. So after 5 min of banging on the bolt with my hand (HARD),it opens Ok, now the bolt draws back hard and the brass feels like its WELDED to the bolt face. I had to use a leatherman tool to pry it out. Rim was damaged, blackened, primer floating around, etc. Bolt appeared ok (Thank the Good Lord for Remington's 3 rings of steel protecting me!), and after switching ammo and using newer stock, the rifle functioned and sighted in 100% perfect. Scared the hell out of me though! This was factory ammo too, not reloads.

Ok, so I called Remington (ammo was early 90's vintage 130 grain Rem bronze point). They only back their ammo for 10 years (expected shelf life according to Remington). Note* I kept this ammo in a cool, dry place, sealed in a US Military ammo can for the past 2 decades. I have ammo from the 50's and 60's that still shoots fine. I guess with gunpowder, it's like rolling dice.
$C:\Users\garan\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif$

So, I'm glad the rifle is a Remington, as it was strong enough to take the hit without any damage, otherwise it would be my dime (and hide). I had our armorer (LEO), check it out as well. The bolt face appears ok, and I pulled the firing pin, ok as well. Damn strong rifle.
$C:\Users\garan\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif$

That brass was warped near the rim, I hate to guess what the PSI was, I'm betting well over 80,000 PSI, given how stiff that bolt was to open.
$C:\Users\garan\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image005.gif$
If I can get a photo posted, I will. Now I have several boxes of old .270 ammo to dispose of, as I'm not going to shoot it through my cherished 700 BDL anymore. At least the brass is still good and my right hand is still attached to my arm!
Time to go out and stock up on .270's!!!

Picher; Yes, bore was / is like a mirror. The rifle is a MINT early 80's BDL 700. No rust or pitting. She is one sexy rifle, it was love at first sight...
$C:\Users\garan\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image006.gif$
The high gloss wood and rich, deep blue steel.... MMmmmmm!!!!

It was close to 90 on Sunday in Maine, and humid. The ammo has been stored correctly, but, after all, it HAS been 20 years or so. I know my knees are not the same as they were 2 decades ago, so I guess I can't expect the ammo to fair any better. It just caught me off guard, as I stock up on (and shoot), old ammo, and NEVER had any issue. I guess I need to rotate my supply more often...
$C:\Users\garan\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image006.gif$

HK Blown up with Brazilian Surplus

http://www.jerzeedevil.com/forums/showthread.php/90285-Gun-Blown-up

Hello gang i was just wondering if any of you guys have ever blown up a gun while shooting. I had the unfortunate luck of blowing up an HK-91 back around 1989. Me and a buddy of mine were buying cases of mil surplus from a company in ohio at the time in 1000 rd. cases. We had gotten a few cases from said company and never had any issues. Well the last case we got from them was from brazil cbc i believe it was. He called me and said he was having jamming issues with this ammo in his sar-48 bush gun. I told him well i'll go out with you and run some through my 91 it'll eat anything. Well the third round out of the 91 "BOOM" pretty scary it was.

I think you can have or get a bad round or lot of ammo with any manufacturer. That being said the ammo that blew my 91 up was military surplus from brazil. Thats the problem with mil surplus its put onto the market because its deemed not worthy of use for the military of said country.

So you get some good some bad you take your chances. But when your setting off small explosions with each trigger pull in your weapon anything can happen at any time with any manufacturers product.

Just be sure to wear eye and e

ar protection and good gloves are'nt a bad idea either. "**** HAPPENS" you know, don't you just love that saying.

Be safe and have a great weekend.

http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21886

Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:29 PM

'Tailgunner', on 17 Jul 2012 - 13:16, said:

$C:\Users\garan\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image008.gif$

I picked up some surplus ammo a couple of years ago and had a couple of hang fires. The hammer would drop and a second later the rifle would discharge.

After that happened a couple of times, I decided I wasn't going to shoot that stuff any more. So I took the ammo apart, thinking I'd at least salvage the brass. After I'd pulled all of the bullets and dumped the powder, I tried chucking the primed cases in a vice and then hit the primers with a pin punch and a hammer. I found that some of the primers would "pop" but others would just sizzle and smoke. I'm pretty sure those were my hang fires. It was an interesting experiment.

The last surplus ammo I had looked so bad that I never fired any of it. Like you, I took it apart. The powder was clumped together. The base of the bullet was green with corrosion. I decapped all the brass, burned the primers and powder outside when burning rubbish, and sold the brass and bullets to a scrap company. Recouped a very small amount of initial price. That was the last time I got fooled on surplus ammo crap.

My guess is that most of the foreign countries that are selling surplus goods to the USA, don't care much about how they handle or store the items, as long as it gets on the shipping container and they pocket the purchase price, they are happy. Caveat emptor is Latin for "Let the buyer beware." It especially applies to surplus goods that have a shelf life. Where was it stored? How was it stored? What temperature? Subjected to water or salt air? Exposed to a structure fire? How was it transported? Etc. etc...too many unanswered questions. A deal that is too good to be true, usually is too good to be true.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7756780&postcount=6

Although it's remotely possible that a defective load (very unlikely if factory ammo) or poorly stored ammo that had deterioated. I had some H450 go bad and an "accuracy" load from a .30/06 w/180gr bullet locked up the bolt and removed case looked like a belted magnum...... but gun was unharmed.... primer was blown however and pitted the bolt face...... I pulled down the rest of the ammo and powder "stunk" like vinegar and inside of cases were turning green from acid corrosion..... Ammo had only been loaded 6mos earlier... and powder looked and smelled "ok" then.

Garand Blowup with WWII ball

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7870113&postcount=13

I have an old shooting buddy who some years ago was shooting some WWII ball (don’t know whose) but his M-1 was disassembled in a rather rapid fashion. He was lucky only his pride was hurt. He said he took a round apart and found rust looking dust along with the powder. Bad powder. Just sayin…..The op rod can be rebuilt which might be a good way to go. Op Rods are getting harder to find and when you find one a premium price is required so it seems. Garands require grease. I’m not sure if you are aware of this. If you are, please no offence taken.

Garand Blowup with old US ammunition.

http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?p=1344088

There was a thread on another forum titeled “What’s in your ammo can” and many guys had old surpluss ammo so I told this story. Ty (arizonaguide) asked that I come put it here also so here it is boys, draw your own conclutions.

Back in the mid 80s my Dad and a bunch of us went shooting in Arizona. Dad had a couple thousand rounds of WWII surplus .30M1 (30-06) ammo that looked great on the outside cut his M1 in half in his hands. He was kneeling with elbow on knee when the first round of this ammo went BOOM! We were all pelted with sand and M1 shrapnel.

When the dust cleared Dad was rolling around on his back with buttstock in one hand, for stock in the other, barrel and receiver hanging by the sling around his arm trying to yell “mortar” thinking he was back on Okinawa in battle. The blast had removed his ear muffs, hat, glasses, and broke the headlight in my truck 15 feet away but Dad was only shook up and scratched a bit once he got his wits back. It sheared off the bolt lugs, blew open the receiver front ring, pushed all the guts out the bottom of the magazine, and turned the middle of the stock to splinters.

After a couple hours of picking up M1 shrapnel we headed to the loading bench and started pulling bullets. Some of the powder was fine, some was stuck together in clumps, and some had to be dug out with a stick. It didn’t smell and was not dusty like powder usuley is when it’s gone bad. Put it in a pie tin and light it and it seemed a tad fast but not so you would think it could do that, wasent like lighting a pistol powder even. He had 2000 rounds of this stuff and nun of us were in any mood to play with it much after what we watched so it all went onto a very entertaining desert bon fire. I got the M1 splinters when Dad died last year and will post pix here below for your parousal and entertainment.
$C:\Users\garan\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image009.gif$

Anyway, I no longer play with any ammo I am not 100% sure has always been stored properly . . . cheap shooting ain’t worth the risk to me anymore! I still buy surpluss if the price in right but I unload and reload it with powder I am sure of or just use the brass.

She was a good shooting servasable Winchester M1 before this.

Catastrophic Failure

http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?43897-Catastrophic-Failure

Had a bad experience a week ago. Went to the range to test fire some handloads through a Springfield M1 and ultimately it blew up.

Details: Rifle - M1 Garand, Springfield manufacture receiver (1942) rebarreled in1947.
Ammo: 3-rounds. Reloaded - full-length sized once fired Federal brass, 163 grain mechanically pulled surplus bullet, Winchester Large Rifle primers, 46.5 grains of IMR4895 powder. Powder was dispensed/weighed using RCBS Chargemaster system calibrated immediately before use. Brass was checked for OA length and was within specs. prior to loading. Bullets were seated to crimping groove but not crimped.

Third round fired and rifle disintegrated through magazine well area.

Later analysis of rifle indicates bolt face fracture and case head failure. Lower front of bolt face sheared off around ejector hole causing passageway for hot gases and fragments to enter magazine well area and blow out stock and triggerguard floorplate. Receiver held and bolt frozen in place. Bolt has been removed and shows fracturing of both locking lugs as well as longitudinal fracture back from ejector hole. Extractor has backed out. Last round/fractured brass still stuck in chamber.

Post 151

Original loads were:

1) Primer seating depth was checked by visual and finger feel.
2) The original powder was old - still in metal can and starting to show brown dust (on retrospect).
3) Pulled bullets were GI AP.

Signs of Overpressure in 20 Year Old Handloads

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=782395

I loaded some rounds about 20 years ago. I don't remember seeing any signs of overpressure at the time. However, when I blew the dust off and fired a few rounds last week I got a stiff bolt and flattened primers. I stopped after the second round and plan to pull the rest of the lot to verify the powder charges. Oddly enough, I still have the same can of powder that was used, but I'll probably end up dumping it for piece of mind, unless the powder charges are obviously over weight.

The cases were neck sized to the rifle. They've been stored bullet down in an MTM case within a steel ammo can.

I'd like some information on how or why these loads are exhibiting signs of overpressure. I'd also like to know if I need to change the way I'm storing my ammo.

Rifle: Remington 788

Caliber: .243 Win

Bullet: Hornady 87gr BTHP

Powder: 43.0gr IMR 4350

Primer: CCI 200

COAL: 2.697

I pulled two of the bullets and both showed signs of corrosion and exhibited a slight acidic odor. It looks like SlamFire was on the mark and I caught this at just the right time. I also measured the charges and both came in at exactly 41.9 grains, so that kind of seals it since these were supposed to be 43.0 grains. I'll definitely be pulling the rest of the lot.

I just finished pulling the rest of the lot. It looks like the charges were light because the powder was stuck to the inner wall of the cases. It's stuck on there hard enough that it needs to be scraped off. I may try to burn it off by igniting the primers - in the chamber, of course.

What makes anyone think gunpowder lasts forever? What makes anyone think the stuff fails safe? The real answer is that anyone who thinks gunpowder lasts forever and that as it deteriorates, it stays safe, is misinformed.

$C:\Users\garan\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image011.jpg$

$C:\Users\garan\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image013.jpg$

$C:\Users\garan\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image015.jpg$

$C:\Users\garan\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image017.jpg$

FL-NC · Oct 21, 2018

John Joseph said:
The military has highly trained technicians that regularly check on ammo stores for just such reasons.

Yep. And when the ammo is sent forward to the enduser deployed a long way from an ammo handler, it is stored in the cans and crates in conex boxes that go below freezing in the winter and are hot enough in the summer to fry an egg on- and the ammo still works fine.

John Joseph · Oct 22, 2018

Slamfire said:
Just keep on shooting old ammunition, maybe you will get lucky blowing your firearm up, like the experience of the people in the following thread:

For those that think old ammo is still ok....
http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/powder-keg/38539-those-think-old-ammo-still-ok-print.html

Remington 700 Overpressure with 20 year old factory ammunition

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527519

HK Blown up with Brazilian Surplus

http://www.jerzeedevil.com/forums/showthread.php/90285-Gun-Blown-up

http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21886

Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:29 PM

'Tailgunner', on 17 Jul 2012 - 13:16, said:
$C:\Users\garan\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image008.gif$

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7756780&postcount=6

Garand Blowup with WWII ball

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7870113&postcount=13

Garand Blowup with old US ammunition.

http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?p=1344088

View attachment 808530

Catastrophic Failure

http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?43897-Catastrophic-Failure

Signs of Overpressure in 20 Year Old Handloads

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=782395

What makes anyone think gunpowder lasts forever? What makes anyone think the stuff fails safe? The real answer is that anyone who thinks gunpowder lasts forever and that as it deteriorates, it stays safe, is misinformed.

$C:\Users\garan\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image011.jpg$
$C:\Users\garan\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image013.jpg$
$C:\Users\garan\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image015.jpg$
$C:\Users\garan\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image017.jpg$

Slamfire,
You seem well educated on the issue.
Say one has a box of 20 year old ammo, either milsurp or commercial. Would it be prudent to pull down a sampling for inspection before test firing? If so, what is it that one should look for? Discolored brass? The physical condition or odor of the powder? What do you suggest?

Slamfire · Oct 22, 2018

FL-NC said:
Yep. And when the ammo is sent forward to the enduser deployed a long way from an ammo handler, it is stored in the cans and crates in conex boxes that go below freezing in the winter and are hot enough in the summer to fry an egg on- and the ammo still works fine.

I will bet that there are people who don't know that there is a water plant on the other end of their faucet, or that Walmart gets its chicken from poultry farms. Chicken does not magically appear in the Walmart Deli, though the smells of rotisserie chicken are quite magical. And water, without those gnomes testing the water, cleaning the water, that stuff coming out of the tap would be very diseased.

If your job is a 11 Bravo, it is not necessary to know that there are Ammunition Specialists combing through ammunition stockpiles, inspecting ammunition, sorting good from bad. Knowledge of these guys will not help the trigger pullers save their lives, or the lives of their battle buddies. So, some will probably take it for granted that their ammunition is good, because it always has been good. There is no magic here, but rather it is due to the hard work of Ammunition Specialists removing old, deteriorated ammunition, before it is issued to the troops.

The amount of munitions that are unsafe to keep, or unsafe to issue, is staggering. It is literally beyond the comprehension of many, so they will just ignore the numbers, and the concept. But in real life, DOD has so much old, dangerous, unstable, ammunition that it does not have enough money to demill all the stuff!

The current demil stockpile is estimated at almost 480,000 short tons of conventional ammunition and more than 300,000 missiles and missile components. At an approximate cost of$1,800 per ton to demil this stockpile with future additions or generations, the demil liability to DOD is almost$2 billion through the current budget and program years. At the current funding level, the stockpile, instead ofgetting smaller, continues to grow.

https://asc.army.mil/docs/pubs/alt/...ation_(Demil)__A_Growing_Challenge_200801.pdf

Google the term "insensitive munitions", and look for information from the Marine Corp Ammunition PM, and the Army Ammunition PM. There is a whole universe out there hiding in the strawberry patch.

Slamfire · Oct 22, 2018

John Joseph said:
Slamfire,
You seem well educated on the issue.
Say one has a box of 20 year old ammo, either milsurp or commercial. Would it be prudent to pull down a sampling for inspection before test firing? If so, what is it that one should look for? Discolored brass? The physical condition or odor of the powder? What do you suggest?

I will answer that later. I am busy tonight.

FL-NC · Oct 22, 2018

Slamfire said:
I will bet that there are people who don't know that there is a water plant on the other end of their faucet, or that Walmart gets its chicken from poultry farms. Chicken does not magically appear in the Walmart Deli, though the smells of rotisserie chicken are quite magical. And water, without those gnomes testing the water, cleaning the water, that stuff coming out of the tap would be very diseased.

If your job is a 11 Bravo, it is not necessary to know that there are Ammunition Specialists combing through ammunition stockpiles, inspecting ammunition, sorting good from bad. Knowledge of these guys will not help the trigger pullers save their lives, or the lives of their battle buddies. So, some will probably take it for granted that their ammunition is good, because it always has been good. There is no magic here, but rather it is due to the hard work of Ammunition Specialists removing old, deteriorated ammunition, before it is issued to the troops.

The amount of munitions that are unsafe to keep, or unsafe to issue, is staggering. It is literally beyond the comprehension of many, so they will just ignore the numbers, and the concept. But in real life, DOD has so much old, dangerous, unstable, ammunition that it does not have enough money to demill all the stuff!

The current demil stockpile is estimated at almost 480,000 short tons of conventional ammunition and more than 300,000 missiles and missile components. At an approximate cost of$1,800 per ton to demil this stockpile with future additions or generations, the demil liability to DOD is almost$2 billion through the current budget and program years. At the current funding level, the stockpile, instead ofgetting smaller, continues to grow.

https://asc.army.mil/docs/pubs/alt/2008/1_JanFebMar/articles/38_Conventional_Ammunition_Demilitarization_(Demil)__A_Growing_Challenge_200801.pdf

Google the term "insensitive munitions", and look for information from the Marine Corp Ammunition PM, and the Army Ammunition PM. There is a whole universe out there hiding in the strawberry patch.

This goes back to my point. Its all in the storage, and ammunition is surprisingly more forgiving than many people think. I will concede that most of my experience has been with small arms ammunition (which is what is being discussed in this topic, and I imagine everywhere else on this site), along with experience with items such as demolitions and explosives, mortars, and anti-tank weapons- not missiles, missile components, and the like. And I personally disposed of amounts of ammunition and explosives that I couldn't even calculate- UXO, IEDs and IED materials, captured stores from enemy caches (to include artillery rounds, RPGs, and 107 rockets) and even our own items if they had become damaged, sensitized, or otherwise deemed suspect or unservicable due to damage or other incidents.

John Joseph · Oct 25, 2018

The import of this topic, I'll wager, is that somebody has bought, say Bulgarian or Argentine milsurp by the case stored under who knows what conditions for the past 50 years, or they found Uncle Fidel's war souvenir Lahti complete with a half box of circa 1930 Parabellum.
Is that ammo safe to shoot? Is that ammo even safe to store?
Surmising this from the past performance of 30 year old .22s or 25 year old shotgun shells not giving problems can be very deceiving.
We need something to continually evaluate in order to make meaningful, valid determinations.
That crate of 1950's Yugo rifle ammo you bought for $25 before Sandy Hook might have been functional then, but is it even safe now?

In the early 80's I got a deal on Remington 9mms and put it aside for safe keeping. When I got around to touching off a box 8 years later it stove piped every shot. Winchesters were fine so it wasn't the pistol and I ended pulling 250 rounds for salvaging the brass and projectiles.
It was a waste of money, time, energy and a false sense of security that comes from keeping a stack of worthless ammo... just in case...

Old Ammo

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Similar threads