.444 Marlin vs. 45-70 Govt in popularity

Yes. But the 444 “should” make a comeback with several states opening up their rifle hunting to straight walled cartridges. However, ammunition companies are going to dictate that. Or people will need to reload. 444 ammunition in a lot of places is scarce at best. And it can be expensive when compared to say 308 or 30-06.

his what the marlins should look like(Winchester timber carbine in .444), slim,trim and light. I have owner marlin .444,s and still own marlin 45-70,s and they seem heavy-bulkey to me. I shoot the 265gr Hornady bullet with a heavy load of H-4198.

The 444 came out in 1964. The older 45-70 had been all but dead since the 1890's, Marlin wanted a big bore and the 444 significantly beat 45-70 black powder level loads easily, at least on paper. The problem was that almost all of the 44 caliber bullets at the time were meant to expand at 44 magnum levels. The 444 got a bad reputation for not being very effective on game larger than deer. Marlin decided to revive the 45-70 from the dead in 1973 to solve the problem but it took a while for modern loads to be developed so the 444 continued to be more popular for a while. With modern loads the 45-70 is a little better, and there were more options for heavier, bullets designed to work at 45-70 speeds. The 45-70 quickly bypassed 444 once better loads were available. But in recent times better, and heavier 44 caliber bullets have come out and the 444 is making somewhat of a comeback.

I've owned several 45-70's going back to original modern Marlins introduced in 1973 and I have friends with 444's. I'm not a huge fan of either, but if picking one I still believe the 45-70 is the better round. It offers more options from mild to wild.

I own both and if we are just talking about the cartridges, I strongly believe the 444 is hands down a better more versatile cartridge. At lever rifle pressure levels they can both be loaded to near as makes no difference the same energy levels. The 444 is faster though and with higher BC bullets so it is a lot flatter shooting and much less affected by the wind. They can be made to shoot relatively flat with 300+ grain bullets and still have tolerable recoil levels, whereas to get the velocity and BC out of the 45-70 you have to crank the energy levels to higher than the average person wants to tolerate. On the other side of the coin it can be downloaded to 44 magnum levels and use cheap 44 mag 240 grain bullets.

Now if we talk about the actual execution, well, that's not quite as favorable to the 444. Marlin throat-ed the 444 way too short intending it to use 240 grain bullets, and they made the twist rate too slow. That was a mistake. The cartridge shines with 300+ grain bullets, but the compromise is 265's. There are only a few bullets of 300 grains or larger that will fit in the throat and feed in a marlin. Another mistake was the went with the 44 mag rifle bore diameter of .431 instead of the .429 diameter used in 44 mag revolvers. This means if you want to shoot cast bullets you have to get special made bullets.

Now the unfortunate thing is the vast majority of 444 rifles on the market are crippled with these problems. Because of this no mainstream manufacturer is ever going to make proper 444 mag ammo because it wont work in the older guns. They aren't going to tarnish their reputation by making something you will have a bad result with.

If you want a fantastic big bore hunting rifle though get yourself a single shot of your preference in 444 marlin with a 1-20" twist and ream the throat out so you can run a 300 grain sierra JSP or a 300+ grain gas checked hard cast. If you want an off the shelf lever rifle though the 45-70 is better executed.

I have both and agree that the 444 has been handicapped in the past by several things including, but not limited to, wrong twist rate for heavy bullets, improper throating, and microgroove rifling (all Marlin). My original 336-444 will, if I live long enough, get a cut rifled, one in twenty-two twist and throated for 350 grain express bullets. It will no longer be my 94s big brother.
I prefer the 44 diameter in handguns and personally feel it should make a good medium rifle.
That said, some of my best big bore shooting was with a rolling block 45-70 I built up in the 60s which was a solid 1.5 MOA rifle with aperture sights and a 370 grain bullet.

Because the .45-70 is available in a wider selection of firearms, and reloading components are more varied as well. I think the .444 is a good round, but I don't think it's going to make a sweeping comeback...

45-70 for me, don't know anyone with a .444

someguy2800 said:

If you want a fantastic big bore hunting rifle though get yourself a single shot of your preference in 444 marlin with a 1-20" twist and ream the throat out so you can run a 300 grain sierra JSP or a 300+ grain gas checked hard cast.

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Just.....no. My 444S 1:38 microgroove shoots those 300gr Sierra’s to Sub-MOA accuracy. And here’s the trick....it’s super complicated though. Just trim your brass to LeverEvolution length brass and crimp at the cannelure. COL remains the same. Case capacity remains the same.

Jmr40 gave a nice explanation on the 444 and the all but dead 45-70. An 1886 Winchester in 45-70 is on my bucket list.

Of course, there's always the .450 Marlin to consider-the classic "solution" looking for a problem to fix.

If you walked into a mom&pop combo gas station I bet you'll find 45/70 before 444 ammo. I wad in a hardware store in Maine and they had 351 and 401 Win ammo,boxes looked older than dirt thougj.

highlander 5 said:

If you walked into a mom&pop combo gas station I bet you'll find 45/70 before 444 ammo. I wad in a hardware store in Maine and they had 351 and 401 Win ammo,boxes looked older than dirt thougj.

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Not once in my entire life have I walked into a gas station looking for ammo, nor have I ever bought ammo on the way to or during a hunt, but your right there are a lot more options for factory 45-70 ammo and in different power factors.

someguy2800 said:

Not once in my entire life have I walked into a gas station looking for ammo, nor have I ever bought ammo on the way to or during a hunt, but your right there are a lot more options for factory 45-70 ammo and in different power factors.

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Truth being stranger than fiction... there was a truck stop/gas station in Salina, Utah that had ammo right behind the counter. They had 2 boxes of Winchester .348's... that I, of course, bought. You never know...

Shortened .444 Marlin brass is ideal for making .44-40 blanks that will feed through lever-action rifles. .44-40 cases are too short and will jam the action if they don't have bullets. This problem came up when I was doing Civil War reenacting with a Henry reproduction.

Charlie98 said:

Truth being stranger than fiction... there was a truck stop/gas station in Salina, Utah that had ammo right behind the counter. They had 2 boxes of Winchester .348's... that I, of course, bought. You never know...

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Actually I take it back, I did once buy a box of 25-06 from a tiny gas station in Wadena MN about 15 years ago although it was not during deer season. I was passing through getting gas and noticed it behind the counter. I was amused that among the dozen or so boxes of ammo they had that 25-06 would be one of them so I bought it.

Yes...

highlander 5 said:

If you walked into a mom&pop combo gas station I bet you'll find 45/70 before 444 ammo.

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I cannot believe how often this is used as an argument. Really???

Now that Trapdoors are being made as reproductions we can expect more interest in the .45-70.

I know one guy with a .444. I know several with a .45/70.

They really do overlap a lot, so the real question could be which is more versatile.

I find the .45/70 will shoot everything from 300 gr JHP to 520 gr. LFP bullets through my guide gun really well....from waffle-stompin' loads with the jacketed or super-hard cast bullets to easy-plinking 405 gr lead loads that look like cigar butts being lobbed at distant targets.

I don't think one can be so versatile with a .444...but I could be mistaken.

Stay safe!

The workable bullet weight range in 444 is going to be 180-400 grains or so, a bit less for the slow twist guns. 45-70 definitely has the weight advantage, no question there. It has no problem at all being downloaded just like the 45-70. A 240 grain bullet at 1000 fps all the way to fulll house loads. Only thing is there is not nearly as much load data on it, but no problem at all to download.

Speaking of full house loads - I just got messing around on Buffalo Bore's website and found their "45-70 Magnum" load. 405 grains at 2000 FPS.

Who wants to pull the trigger on that puppy?

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=151

Mosin Bubba said:

Speaking of full house loads - I just got messing around on Buffalo Bore's website and found their "45-70 Magnum" load. 405 grains at 2000 FPS.

Who wants to pull the trigger on that puppy?

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=151

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Thats really not that hot. Right in line with what is listed in load manuals.

The hunting load I shoot in my 444 is a 320 grain hard cast over a book load of RL7, which goes 2300 fps over my chrono. That works out to be 3759 ft lbs. Mine is a single shot action so I could actually go a bit higher if I so desired. 4000+ ft lbs would be doable and safe in a single shot like an Encore, CVA, handi rifle, ect...

last year i was given about 30 of those 45 cal power belts for mz, i had no use for them in my hawken. they were 452 if i remember right but have that hollow band to seal the bore. i have a Siamese mauser in 45/70 and i have made some wacky loads over the years in this rifle. the power belt were the 165s, i don't think they make that weight anymore there was just room for a crimp and with 15 grains of trail boss they shot very good. i have the target some where but at 50 yards i put 5 in under 3/4 inch group and they were hitting the same spot as the 405s at 50. i wish i had more these seem to be moving at a good speed i shot one in to a 12 in pine 4x4 it came out the back.

If those power belts were cheap i would use them as a varmint load. i was hoping a deer walked out the day i was shooting it was rifle season. this shows the 45/70 is more versatile then most think. i like the 444 to but lack of brass. the hole twist thing and few rifles makes it easy to chose the 45/70.