What’s with the 300 blackout stigma?

ATLDave said:

I think it's less a "stigma" issue, and just some people responding to the massive marketing (and perhaps consumer) push to 300 blackout.

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Winner.

I’m a tree hunnert hater. The biggest reason why is that people are having this new “incredible” round shoved down their throats by the gun advertising media with LOTS of claims and little oomph to back it up. You take a .223 power level case, chop it up a bit to reduce case capacity, put in a fatter heavier bullet to slow it down and totally destroy what high velocity advantage that the little fast bullet has on hydrostatic shock and call it the greatest thing since tilting barrel pistols were invented. I like low and slow too, but that’s been done for a century and change... and done with style in the Winchester’s, Henry’s, Marlins, Sharps, etc...

Back to the drawing board...Thought process???

1. Cut case capacity from a “sub-par” round to make it better?
2. Add weight to bullet to “improve” effect on target, but totally sacrifice flat trajectory for it?
3. Add diameter to bullet... because umm.... Murica... Why not. Sounds better.
4. Make the ammo expensive to buy.
5. Make reloading it more difficult (really, harbor freight mini chop saw is essential?) and more expensive (.308 bullets are roughly double .224)
6. Make it so that it can easily set back and chamber in a .223.... kaboom
7. Call it great because it can be quiet... so can a 22 short. Or a .45acp. Or anything else.
....And last but not least...
8. Hype it as the best new deer round available...with less range, speed, and power than .223 but also with more elevation drop at range, more wind deflection, and a more picky action on a rifle...that mimicks the 30-30 which has been killing deer since about the time smokeless powder became a real thing. But yeah... it’s new and wonderful and worth paying a dollar a shot for because THrEE HUNnerT sounds better than 223 and it’s got that really nifty surname of BlackOut which also is just there to sound cool.

Oh did anybody mention the 300 whisper... nah it sucked compared to BlackOut.

All the grandstanding that this dog receives has minimized legitimately good AR platform rounds like 6.8, .277 wolverine, .30 AR, etc...

BUT, it is whatever floats a persons boat. 300blk clearly doesn’t float a thing for me, but it is in actuality a somewhat effective round now that it’s had bullets developed to perform at low speeds. Lots of other rounds do the same thing as good or better, but it does get the job done. And to make matters worse, the stinking thing is so popular that people are now doing the same thing to .308 brass in an ar10.

beeenbag said:

My question is, how come there are so many quick to dismiss the 300 blackout, when in the 125g flavor, it rivals the Russian round very closely? Add to favor on the side off the 300, the ability to be suppressed easily, and the pistol powders used making it much more effective (read retaining velocity) in shorter barrels.

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Because it really doesn't and its subsonic "suppressability" is little more than a marketing ploy, presenting what's been done with x39 (and a variety of other rounds) for several decades. Now that the inflation has made $200 tax stamps much cheaper than they used to be, suppressors are gaining popularity in the US and that growing market has been the main target. The BO has one advantage and one advantage only: it feeds through standard AR magwells from standard AR mags. For a price, though, but the marketing costs have to be covered somehow.

It's just another round among others, somewhat inferior to the x39 and pricier to boot, for one very specialized purpose. Some like it, some couldn't care less, but aside from its limited tacticool mall ninja rep there isn't anything that special about it.

hq said:

Because it really doesn't and its subsonic "suppressability" is little more than a marketing ploy, presenting what's been done with x39 (and a variety of other rounds) for several decades. Now that the inflation has made $200 tax stamps much cheaper than they used to be, suppressors are gaining popularity in the US and that growing market has been the main target. The BO has one advantage and one advantage only: it feeds through standard AR magwells from standard AR mags. For a price, though, but the marketing costs have to be covered somehow.

It's just another round among others, somewhat inferior to the x39 and pricier to boot, for one very specialized purpose. Some like it, some couldn't care less, but aside from its limited tacticool mall ninja rep there isn't anything that special about it.

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Marketing costs? Converting my first rifle to Blackout cost me $89 for a barrel and $23 for a set of dies. I'm not sure who recouped any marketing costs from me.

jmr40 said:

The way I see it the 7.62X39 is a step down compared to the better 223 loads with 70+ gr bullets. The 300 BO shoots the same bullets as 7.62X39 another 200 fps slower. If someone wants to shoot subsonic loads with a suppressor that is the only practical use for the 300 BO that I can think of.


From a terminal performance perspective it may well kill game and stop threats. But it doesn't do it as well as other more common rounds. If someone is looking for better performance in an AR package than the 223 gives one of the options in 6.5 or 6.8mm is where they need to be looking.

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^^^^^ My take on it as well. Particularly when subsonic and for defense. IMO...you would do just as well (if not better) going .45acp on an AR platform.

"Back to the drawing board...Thought process???"
Of course that's only if you're perpetuating the "stigma" lol
Let's look from a different angle since it was originally concieved not to replace the M4 but the MP5 9mm

1. Let's increase case capacity to maximize supersonic capabilities in a 10" barrel.
2. Add weight to bullet to "improve" effect on target without sacrificing trajectory.
3. Let's decrease bullet diameter to achieve better BC for increased downrange effect.
4. Let's make cheap ammo avaliable unfortunately Sandy Hook less than 2 years into it eliminated all cheap ammo making even 22 rimfire prices double and triple.
5. Make reloading really easy, great source of brass so easy venders practically give it away, let's make it so magnum pistol powder works.
6. Yep that's a problem, if you're prone to putting the wrong ammo in a gun.
7. Yeah cause a 22 short is a very effective deer cartridge, you said it yourself the Blackout nears the deer capabilities of the vaunted 30/30 in a short package that works well suppressed.
8. The "hype" is still largly due to it being excellent at a secondary role.

The biggest problems with the other "legitimate" AR rounds is ultimately they don't really offer much over a 5.56 for the extra cost. The last blackout upper I put together was under $200.

Flintknapper said:

^^^^^ My take on it as well. Particularly when subsonic and for defense. IMO...you would do just as well (if not better) going .45acp on in an AR platform.

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Except 45 ACP in an AR platform is a mess of propitiatory parts. The lower has to be special since 45 ACP double stack does not fit through the standard AR magazine-well and nearly all the parts in the upper are 45 ACP unique. 300 BO takes the change of one part, the barrel.

Olympic sells 45 ACP mags that work in a regular AR 15 lower, don’t even need an adapter. You would need a cut upper, the same as 458 socom or 450 BM, a barrel and bolt carrier because it’s not going to be a gas gun anymore.

I don’t know about everyone else but my 300 is a complete upper ready to go I don’t swap barrels around going from one round to another. That way it is a one part swap with just two pins.

FL-NC said:

Yep. Except I would have marked the upper.

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Did some checking.....this should do the trick:





https://www.customardustcover.com/A...emium-Laser-Engraved-Inside-Outside_p_15.html

Not very expensive at $14.99 delivered.....might have to get one.

There's clearly a use case. I'm just surprised the use case is of interest to so many people. I'm particularly surprised given that the current thinking on terminal ballistics is that wound channel size is all that matters for sub-2k fps wounding. A .3-diameter hole is not very big, though I would not want an extra one in any part of me.

Chuck R. said:

Did some checking.....this should do the trick:

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Of course, the kaboom danger is not in putting 223 ammo in a 300 BO upper... it's in putting 300 BO ammo in a 223 upper.

Yup, you're right.......

Guess I'll just have to keep paying attention to what I'm doing, sure as hell not marking all my other ARs......

Chuck R. said:

Guess I'll just have to keep paying attention to what I'm doing

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Can't argue with that!

mcb said:

Except 45 ACP in an AR platform is a mess of propitiatory parts. The lower has to be special since 45 ACP double stack does not fit through the standard AR magazine-well and nearly all the parts in the upper are 45 ACP unique. 300 BO takes the change of one part, the barrel.

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Quite a bit of work to swap out a barrel. Most folks simply plop an entire 'upper' on their lower for sake of ease and to maintain the sight system (whether irons, red dot, scope).

No trouble to put an Oly kit on your present lower. NO modifications necessary.

http://www.olyarms.com/shop/pistol-caliber/k45-ur.html

Most shooters with much of a firearms inventory already have a .45acp and ammo, so you aren't adding anything new. Subsonic...energy levels are just about identical. For self defense (out to 50 yds.) I just don't see the allure of the BO if you aren't special forces going door to door, room to room.

But I suppose there is a niche that find it useful for other purposes and that is great. The more gun owners/shooters the better as far as I am concerned.

Flintknapper said:

Quite a bit of work to swap out a barrel. Most folks simply plop an entire 'upper' on their lower for sake of ease and to maintain the sight system (whether irons, red dot, scope).

No trouble to put an Oly kit on your present lower. NO modifications necessary.

http://www.olyarms.com/shop/pistol-caliber/k45-ur.html

Most shooters with much of a firearms inventory already have a .45acp and ammo, so you aren't adding anything new. Subsonic...energy levels are just about identical. For self defense (out to 50 yds.) I just don't see the allure of the BO if you aren't special forces going door to door, room to room.

But I suppose there is a niche that find it useful for other purposes and that is great. The more gun owners/shooters the better as far as I am concerned.

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So the Olympic mag is not a true double stack magazine if it fits in a standard AR mag-well.

I was not really thinking about swapping barrels as a way to switch between calibers on demand though I have never found a barrel install/swap all that bad with the proper tools. All my AR's are complete builds and I don't even typical switch uppers on a lower since each gun was built for a specific use/purpose. It's more like I have a bunch of extra AR parts laying around and I only need to buy one unique propitiatory part to assemble a 300 BO rather than a 5.56 gun from a bunch of spare/extra 5.56 parts.

45 ACP may compare favorably with 300 BO sub-sonic ballistic-ally (though I still believe 300 BO sub-sonic has more accuracy potential at range) but it lack the flexibility to also shoot super sonic ammo that triples the muzzle energy output. And 300 BO runs direct impingement vs 45 ACP blow-back. Nothing wrong with a 45 ACP carbine its just not a flexible as a 300 BO carbine IMHO. As a reloader the ammo cost are simple not much of factor I load both cartridges.

45 ACP may compare favorably with 300 BO subsonic ballistic-ally (though I still believe 300 BO sub-sonic has more accuracy potential at range) but it lack the flexibility to also shoot super sonic ammo

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After considering my "not much difference" comment was speculation I decided to throw one together to see what the difference is.

The 300 does have the "jack of all trades, master of none" thing going for it though.

"No trouble to put an Oly kit on your present lower. NO modifications necessary."

Except for that $780 price tag more if you want a flat top or key mod handguard oh yeah $45 a piece for extra mags sweet deal to give up the ability to swap mags and go supersonic.

The 300 BLK does have magazine capacity over .45 ACP for sure; 30 rounds in a STANAG mag is a lot more compact then a 30 round .45 ACP magazine.

300 BLK is my favorite caliber. It's versatile, easy and cheap to reload, and it does everything I need from subsonic suppressed fire to 2500 fps super sonics. I don't really care if others don't like it, I do, and I'd guess the other 31,000 members of the 300 black out group on FB agree!

WestKentucky said:

Winner.

I’m a tree hunnert hater. The biggest reason why is that people are having this new “incredible” round shoved down their throats by the gun advertising media with LOTS of claims and little oomph to back it up. You take a .223 power level case, chop it up a bit to reduce case capacity, put in a fatter heavier bullet to slow it down and totally destroy what high velocity advantage that the little fast bullet has on hydrostatic shock and call it the greatest thing since tilting barrel pistols were invented. I like low and slow too, but that’s been done for a century and change... and done with style in the Winchester’s, Henry’s, Marlins, Sharps, etc...

Back to the drawing board...Thought process???

1. Cut case capacity from a “sub-par” round to make it better?
2. Add weight to bullet to “improve” effect on target, but totally sacrifice flat trajectory for it?
3. Add diameter to bullet... because umm.... Murica... Why not. Sounds better.
4. Make the ammo expensive to buy.
5. Make reloading it more difficult (really, harbor freight mini chop saw is essential?) and more expensive (.308 bullets are roughly double .224)
6. Make it so that it can easily set back and chamber in a .223.... kaboom
7. Call it great because it can be quiet... so can a 22 short. Or a .45acp. Or anything else.
....And last but not least...
8. Hype it as the best new deer round available...with less range, speed, and power than .223 but also with more elevation drop at range, more wind deflection, and a more picky action on a rifle...that mimicks the 30-30 which has been killing deer since about the time smokeless powder became a real thing. But yeah... it’s new and wonderful and worth paying a dollar a shot for because THrEE HUNnerT sounds better than 223 and it’s got that really nifty surname of BlackOut which also is just there to sound cool.

Oh did anybody mention the 300 whisper... nah it sucked compared to BlackOut.

All the grandstanding that this dog receives has minimized legitimately good AR platform rounds like 6.8, .277 wolverine, .30 AR, etc...

BUT, it is whatever floats a persons boat. 300blk clearly doesn’t float a thing for me, but it is in actuality a somewhat effective round now that it’s had bullets developed to perform at low speeds. Lots of other rounds do the same thing as good or better, but it does get the job done. And to make matters worse, the stinking thing is so popular that people are now doing the same thing to .308 brass in an ar10.

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Some of these arguments are downright comical. I ask again, where is all this hype you guys are whining about? Second, who cares and why does it prevent you from judging based on merit? To be honest, I hear FAR more crap from those who hate/misunderstand the cartridge than I ever hear positive hype. All this nonsense just comes off as cynical bias, with very little basis in fact.

1-3. The BO was designed for subsonic use with suppressors. When you limit velocity, the only way to gain terminal effect is to increase diameter and mass. This should be obvious.

4. Ammo is no more expensive than anything else that is not 5.56, 7.62x39 or 9mm. If we're holding it against the cartridge that it's not as cheap to shoot as 5.56, that dooms 99.99% of the cartridges available and is absolutely asinine.

5. BS. I don't make cases that I can buy. The .300BO is no different. You only cut cases if you WANT to form them from cheaper .223 brass.

6. If you can't be trusted to put the appropriate ammunition in your guns, sell them and take up golf or underwater basket weaving.

7. Last I checked, subsonic .22Short is good for squirrels and such but not much else. Show me a .45ACP rifle that can also cover 250yds with supersonic loads.

8. Really??? Where is this hype and is it really hyped as the "best new deer round available"?

CraigC said:

When you limit velocity, the only way to gain terminal effect is to increase diameter and mass.

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This is why I'm puzzled at the level of the appeal this round seems to have (I'm not a "hater," as I can't see that this round's existence harms me in any way). If I'm shooting subsonic stuff with the intent of having terminal effect against flesh, I would want more diameter than .30. I get that it's larger than .224, but that's a round that is moving supersonic.

if not for one bullet Maker, I would tend to agree.

ATLDave said:

This is why I'm puzzled at the level of the appeal this round seems to have (I'm not a "hater," as I can't see that this round's existence harms me in any way). If I'm shooting subsonic stuff with the intent of having terminal effect against flesh, I would want more diameter than .30. I get that it's larger than .224, but that's a round that is moving supersonic.

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Dill said:

if not for one bullet Maker, I would tend to agree.

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Sub-sonic puts a tall demand on terminal ballistic performance and it's always a compromise. The smaller diameter bullet of 300 BO (compare to 45 ACP) makes for better external ballistics and a bit more efficient suppressors for a given volume but in-turn your bullet technology has to be a bit more advanced to achieve comparable terminal effects. For better or worst the popularity of 300 BO and sub-sonic/suppressed guns has push low velocity bullet technology to advance. Maker Bullet is a fine example of technology responding to the need/demand. I am working up a load with their 220gr bullet (pictured in one of my earlier post), going to use it for coyote hunting and maybe some deer hunting next year.

Flintknapper said:

Quite a bit of work to swap out a barrel. Most folks simply plop an entire 'upper' on their lower for sake of ease and to maintain the sight system (whether irons, red dot, scope).

No trouble to put an Oly kit on your present lower. NO modifications necessary.

http://www.olyarms.com/shop/pistol-caliber/k45-ur.html

Most shooters with much of a firearms inventory already have a .45acp and ammo, so you aren't adding anything new. Subsonic...energy levels are just about identical. For self defense (out to 50 yds.) I just don't see the allure of the BO if you aren't special forces going door to door, room to room.

But I suppose there is a niche that find it useful for other purposes and that is great. The more gun owners/shooters the better as far as I am concerned.

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Ok, I paid $800 to build my .300BO AR. That Olympic upper is over $700 by itself, it uses goofy looking proprietary magazines and I completely lose supersonic capability. So again, how is this better? Not to mention that Olympic Arms has had severe financial troubles in recent years.

ATLDave said:

This is why I'm puzzled at the level of the appeal this round seems to have (I'm not a "hater," as I can't see that this round's existence harms me in any way). If I'm shooting subsonic stuff with the intent of having terminal effect against flesh, I would want more diameter than .30. I get that it's larger than .224, but that's a round that is moving supersonic.

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There's always the .450BM, .458SOCOM and .50Beo but you also get an exponential increase in recoil with supersonic loads in this chamberings. Supersonic .300BO is still a powderpuff.

I avoid the stigma completely by building a 7.62x40WT.