Is this a legit 1860 Army?

I am going to claim that if the cylinders and nipples come with modern SAE or metric threads, the pistol is a reproduction. Based on a quick web search, these are common nipple threads.

Uberti produced C&B with 12-28 x .200” threads

Pietta produced C&B with 6m x .75m x .200” threads

Ruger Old Army models with long 12-28 x .250” threads

Walker and Dragoon models with 1/4"-28 x .215" threads

A much longer list is here:

https://possibleshop.com/s-s-nipples.html

According to this document: http://www.tresollc.com/Treso-catalog-2016.pdf

the original Colt thread is 225 x 32.

Might be other threads that can be checked, these Colt screws were all made before standardization became the norm in the US. By and large, there are so many "originals" floating around, which started as Italian repro's, that any claims of originality are suspect. There are more counterfeit Civil War items made within the last 50 years, than existed during the Civil War.

Agreed that if the threads are wrong you have your proof that it's not original.

Does the serial number land in range possible for an "original" antique?
Does the serial number land in range possible for a 2nd or "3rd" gen Colt?

^^^^^ investigation should focus around whether this is a second or third generation Colt. I certainly don't have the expertise to tell from photos, but there just doesn't seem enough wear for that to be a 160 year old pistol, no matter how heavily refurbished.

Jimkounter said:

The serial numbers put it at 1865. My issue is that the stamps including the serial number look too crisp except for on the barrel. The consequences of this are quite extreme here in the UK. If it is a fake then it's not an antique and would fall under section 1 of the firearms act. Ownership without the appropriate license is therefore illegal and leads to a MANDATORY 5 year prison sentence!

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Under these circumstances, with the transaction having just occurred, I would probably contact the authorities responsible for enforcing that law and advise them of your suspicion. Protect yourself first and foremost!

J-Bar said:

Under these circumstances, with the transaction having just occurred, I would probably contact the authorities responsible for enforcing that law and advise them of your suspicion. Protect yourself first and foremost!

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I had similar thoughts, except I'd contact the auction house for a return and refund and just be done with it. If it is "a heavily refinished original antique Colt 1860 Army," subjectively, it sure wouldn't seem to be worth the risk of 5 years in any prison. Moreover, legalities aside, objectively and depending on one's own definition of "a lot of money," it isn't worth a whole heck of lot from a monetary, and certainly not much from collectability, standpoint even if it is "a heavily refinished original antique Colt 1860 Army," the mere appearance of which leads one to be dubious of its authenticity. Not many collectors would want a "collector's item" that is so refinished it looks fake unless it was so cheap its authenticity didn't matter - in other words, whatever it is, it is no longer a "collector's item," but a "novelty item" (or if it is safe and functional, a "shooter").

I do not know the minutiae of UK gun laws - is the seller of the violating firearm exposed to any liability for its role, and/or, is a purchaser relying on the seller's expertise of such a "non-firearm" afforded any legal protection/defense, and/or, does "good faith and reasonable reliance" by the buyer or seller come into play as protection/defense. If you plan on keeping it, I'd consider getting a legal opinion to at least those questions. Note that a protection - you won't be charged or prosecuted - and a defense - you may be charged or prosecuted, but you have a defense against conviction - are different things.

Jimkounter said:

The serial numbers put it at 1865. My issue is that the stamps including the serial number look too crisp except for on the barrel.

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IIRC, a Colt 1860 Army with a large serial number, such as yours, would have a 4-screw frame for use with a shoulder stock. Yours has the recoil shields cut for the stock but only a 3-screw frame.

Jim

Are there any markings on the underside of the barrel under the loading lever?

Does it have Gain Twist rifling?

What I see looks like it could be a real Colt, heavily buffed, refinished and with some markings restamped. I think it would be helpful to see the whole gun and all the markings. Before you involve authorities I would at least check the screw & nipple threads and the rifling. If you don't like it no matter what and the company you bought from will take it back that's another option.

drobs said:

Are there any markings on the underside of the barrel under the loading lever?

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Probably "Personally Heavily Refinished By Sam Colt, 2016"...sorry, sarcasm mode off. As presented, regardless of markings it is at best "a heavily refinished original antique Colt 1860 Army" with no provenance. Short of suddenly discovered and readily provable provenance, it is and never will be more than that. Assuming no better provenance, I stand by my advice to the OP: return it to the auction house for a refund and be done with it.

The UK is a lot closer to Italy than the US. Plenty of opportunity for a faked Italian repro to make its way to an English Auction house.

TheRodDoc said:

Does it have Gain Twist rifling?

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That's one quick tell tale indication right there.

You can always take it to a firearms appraiser.
There's a few reputable antique gun dealers here who do professional appraisals for insurance purposes.
I would think that there are also many in the U.K..
I'm surprised that there wasn't an appraisal letter accompanying the gun at auction, which may have increased its value if the gun's authenticity was acknowledged by an expert.

Here's an example of one in the U.S.:--->>> http://www.davidcondon.com
Then click on appraisals.

arcticap said:

You can always take it to a firearms appraiser.
There's a few reputable antique gun dealers here who do professional appraisals for insurance purposes.

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I would be careful doing that because if it turns out to be a fake and therefore an illegal item or at least illegal for Jimkounter to possess, the appraiser may have some duty/requirement to turn it over to the appropriate authorities rather than return it. I am not saying that is the case, only that it should be considered. In my opinion, this gun certainly seems to be one of those things that has "bad outcome" written all over it and if I were Jimkounter, I'd consider the ability to return it and rid myself of it without much or any financial loss to be the much larger "collector's success story" than the initial acquisition and ownership of this fine example of whatever it is. Again, just my opinion.

The checkering on hammer spur is right for original colts.

Joe Bleaux said:

I would be careful doing that because if it turns out to be a fake and therefore an illegal item or at least illegal for Jimkounter to possess, the appraiser may have some duty/requirement to turn it over to the appropriate authorities rather than return it. I am not saying that is the case, only that it should be considered. In my opinion, this gun certainly seems to be one of those things that has "bad outcome" written all over it and if I were Jimkounter, I'd consider the ability to return it and rid myself of it without much or any financial loss to be the much larger "collector's success story" than the initial acquisition and ownership of this fine example of whatever it is. Again, just my opinion.

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I agree that there would be a risk.
However the U.K. does have a modern court system by which to sue the auction house for any losses.
And if he worked it out with the auction house then they could send it to the appraiser to satisfy all of the legal hurdles & requirements without any risk to the buyer [OP].
Then he could get it authenticated and also have the gun in the end.
After all, he did bid on it and doesn't have any proof [yet] that the gun is a fraud.

I wish it were easier. At least it doesn’t have a “1/2 meter” rod stuck out the back to make it meet some arbitrary minimum length measurement.

Another option would possibly be to have the auction house hold the firearm in good faith while the appropriate licensing process took place, and/or the gun is added to an existing license until it was otherwise proven to be a legit antique or a fake.

The photos are of such clarity that one can see under all that sheen there is a lot of surface pitting and wear. The nipples have a lot of grime and rust and the area under the hammer is heavily encrusted. There is what looks to be erosion from burning powder gases at the cylinder mouth. There is a lot of wear and tear apparent on that gun.

That 1860 revolver barrel does have some extra sexy curves & lines, does it not?

expat_alaska said:

IIRC, a Colt 1860 Army with a large serial number, such as yours, would have a 4-screw frame for use with a shoulder stock. Yours has the recoil shields cut for the stock but only a 3-screw frame.

Jim

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Please help me identify and understand where the difference in the cut-out should be on the frame.

Here's an original 3 screw civil war model 1860 from Condon's website that's described as being made in 1862:--->>> http://www.maxanet.com/cgi-bin/mnlist.cgi?condon/27661

Are they comparable revolvers?

If not, I found this early 4 screw civil war model 1860 on page 2 of Condon's website that's described as made in 1862 and an early civil war production:--->>> http://www.maxanet.com/cgi-bin/mnlist.cgi?condon/27839

Is there a reference about the 4 screw model serial numbers?
I don't know how to recognize the differences with the frame other than I see a slight difference with the cut out on the early 4 screw model on the right side.
Can you help me identify the difference in the OP's photo vs. one of the most comparable revolvers?
What reference provides info. on when the production feature was changed by serial number or production date?
Both of the Condon guns were said to have been made in 1862.
Please help me to understand.
The OP's 3 screw model cut outs seems to be the same as the 3 screw model on Condon's website.

Could there have been a mix and match of left over parts after or close to the end of the war if the OP's revolver was actually made in 1865?
We don't even know its serial number to confirm its production date.
Should there be a notch cut out on the bottom of the OP's grip frame which wasn't photographed?

Thank you.

Hi articap,

I think either I explained it wrong or you did not understand what I posted.

The recoil shields on the 3-screw and 4-screw frames are cut the same. I believe it was on this forum or another one where I read that the 4-screw frame did not come into being until after a serial number range much lower than the OP's revolver. The OP does not give a number but states that the serial number was long enough to put the manufacture date at/around 1865.

I am not a great student of the 1860 Army, and I believe it is wholly possible that mix-and-match happened after the War, and I see no reason that the bottom of the backstrap was not notched for the shoulder stock.

Sorry for any confusion on my part.

Regards,

Jim