Who does revolver "combat" training?

What I actually said was:
"Anyone who is a serious handgunner realizes the need, and should have the desire, to become knowledgeable and have some skill with revolvers. This means both single action and double action revolvers. So it's useful to go to at least local classes at some point. It's part of building and developing skills."

The difference here from what I said and believe, and what some others have said, is where I begin and end. Others who have a different starting point, self defense against multiple armed attackers for instance, have a different set of criteria for what they are doing and where they want to end up, that's all. If a person sets out with a limited goal they meet it soon. If a person wants to become competent and knowledgeable with a variety of handguns then they figure a goal of taking the time to study and learn from experience the use of a variety of semis and wheelguns. It's a necessity to do that because there is no other way to reach that goal. It has to be done over time, years in fact.

The serious handgunner says, "yeah, I don't know how to run a revolver yet. But I'll take the time to learn as I can." Folks with another objective, that they are serious about, start by saying "Revolvers are outdated and outmatched for modern self defense and modern competition so I don't have the time." The starting point is their idea of self defense scenarios and needs and how to work a handgun into that. It's not a bad thing, but it is a different thing.

If you like handguns you want to develop your skills with them. From age 20 to 80 there's always something new to learn.

I believe Thunder Ranch still does. At least they did when I was interested.

tipoc, just saying that your idea of “serious handgunner” reflects your personal preferences as my idea of it reflects mine. I’m a pretty serious handgunner still a long time after I have relegated revolvers to the PITA category that they so clearly belong in. JMO of course. I just don’t think disliking one type of gun to the point of its exclusion has anything to do with how serious one is about guns.

rpenmanparker said:

tipoc, just saying that your idea of “serious handgunner” reflects your personal preferences as my idea of it reflects mine. I’m a pretty serious handgunner still a long time after I have relegated revolvers to the PITA category that they so clearly belong in. JMO of course. I just don’t think disliking one type of gun to the point of its exclusion has anything to do with how serious one is about guns.

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So you basically joined the discussion about revolvers and training which is located in the Revolver Forum to tell those who carry them then you don't like them, they're obsolete, they're a PITA, to get a semiauto instead, so on and so fourth? No disrespect but if you dislike revolvers to the point of exclusion and have no other info to help the OP, I'm kind of confused as to what your goal is?

Styx said:

So you basically joined the discussion about revolvers and training which is located in the Revolver Forum to tell those who carry them then you don't like them, they're obsolete, they're a PITA, to get a semiauto instead, so on and so fourth? No disrespect but if you dislike revolvers to the point of exclusion and have no other info to help the OP, I'm kind of confused as to what your goal is?

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I have knowledge to impart which I think can be helpful to the OP in his quest for better results in shooting games. I have had training sessions which also included folks using revolvers and have made observations on that basis. My initial posts in this thread were just about those obsevstions, not my dislike of revolvers. Only after other poster(s) promoted revolvers as a necessary interest for all “serious” handgunners did I offer my own opinion on that subject. The term forum implies an open discussion with views from all quarters being expressed. If you just want validation for your views, forums are the wrong place to look.

But honestly, I know you are right. I think my first post was valid, but I should have left it there. What I should have said to close out my participation was that if you want to get better with a revolver, you really need a revolver-specific training course. What I have seen in a mixed course was that the revolver couldn’t keep up and got left behind.

Here's a bit more, from Josh Lentz...
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015/8/19/five-tips-for-better-revolver-competition-with-josh-lentz

More on shooting in ICORE...

"Revolvers are allowed in all action pistol games. But not many wheelgunners expect to see their name near the top of the leaderboard, when they’re also competing against semi-autos that hold a lot more rounds. This is because round gunners spend a lot more time reloading, while eating up precious scoring seconds on the clock.
Revolver shooters accept the fact that they’re at a definite disadvantage in action pistol games―unless that game happens to be the International Confederation of Revolver Enthusiasts (ICORE)."

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2018/8/31/introduction-to-icore/

D.B. Cooper said:

So the moral of the story is, changing to a high capacity 9mm isn't going to help me, and neither is getting some training; I'll still be dead last.

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Why do you think that is? Are you a clutz or a geezer? I have no experience in shooting games from which to give advice, but from what I've witnessed, I wouldn't blame a performance on the equipment. I do have a lot of experience racing, and I've come to believe that "talent" has a major bearing on how far someone can go in the rankings. For someone without remarkable talent, extensive training can bring them from near the back to near the front of the "followers," and they can perform much more safely.

If you are running 111s vs 43s, where are you losing time? Is it all lost in the reloading, or because you're having to reload too many times or are you shooting too slow also? How many shots on those 26 targets? 26 shots would be 5 reloads versus one on an autoloader. Why wouldn't changing to 9mm help? Even if you kept a revolver, a 929 would eliminate at least one reload, and an autoloader would cut out 4 reloads. In that video, Chris Baker is doing a revolver reload in about 4 seconds. Five reloads would add 20 seconds to your time. Again, I don't know if that string only took 26 shots, but if it did, half your extra time might be consumed reloading, and the other half might be lost somewhere else.

D.B. Cooper said:

I'll tell ya what guys, and I'm shaking my head as I type this, I just shot the last week of the league season yesterday. 26 targets in a string and I ran it in 111.xx seconds. I watched another guy run the exact same course with an M&P 9mm in 39 seconds. (His wife ran it 43 seconds.) That guy was only good enough for 5th place in the centerfire pistol iron sight division. I don't even know where I finished because I didn't even qualify for ranking. So the moral of the story is, changing to a high capacity 9mm isn't going to help me, and neither is getting some training; I'll still be dead last.

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I have no experience with shooting games either, but I've always been interested in running a revolver in IDPA. I just haven't drummed up the courage yet. For me, I think I'd have more fun with a revolver, and I'd enjoy the challenge over semiautos. I'd be competing against myself, and trying to beat my own scores instead of worrying about what everyone else was doing.

With that said, what's your goal? If it's to be as fast as and to compete against semiautos, that would be very unrealistic goal IMHO. You're setting yourself up for disappointment. IMHO, GarrettJ had the most logical reply.

If I were you and I was worried about competing against others, I'd seek out revolver only competitions. If I just wanted to compete against myself, I'd try to identify any bottlenecks, and I would then come up with solutions to try and minimize them... I'd also attend other revolver matches to observe what others who were faster than me were doing.

I've worked many fast paced numbers/production driven jobs that had quotas that I had to meet. In the end, I always ended up being the best or one of the best performers by watching what what those who were at the top were doing. Asking them questions and peeking around the corners trying to see how each and everyone of them did things, and what tips or tricks they had up their sleeves. I'd mimic the behaviors that they all had in common, and would steal little tips and tricks that each individual used while trying to find what worked best for me. I'd be sort of a hybrid of all the top performers... I'd probably would take this same route if I was trying to compete... Find out what those at the top are doing, what equipment and ammo they're using, etc, and then taking all that into account, try to figure out what works best for me. After that, I'd focus on repetition and muscle memory. The more I did it, the faster I became.

GarrettJ said:

Not to try and discourage you, but I don’t know that the typical self-defense centered class is going to help you all that much if your goal is to improve at USPSA.

While shooting and reloading quickly and accurately are beneficial to both sport and defense, there are a number of areas that would help you improve at USPSA that won’t be covered in a defense class. (Breaking down a stage, planning when/where to reload/etc). Reloading techniques are often taught differently as well.

If improving at USPSA is your end goal, you would be better off asking over on the Brian Enos forum, where you could get more competition-specific responses.

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You should call Jerry, he might be able to impart the knowledge you require. That 686 in his hands is close to full auto. I’m sure S&W would sponsor his replacement like they did him.

D.B. Cooper said:

If you're talking about Michulek, and if he offered a training course, I'd take it!

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He’s a very nice guy. I had the chance to meet him once. I’m sure I sounded like a babbling idiot. He was very gracious and took it all in stride. That S&W performance center .357 is really sweet and yes they sell it at a premium price point but you can get the exact same one. Are your iron sights adjustable?

D.B. Cooper said:

I've got to find a way to dry fire, but there just isn't a place in my home that I'm comfortable with an ND. But, at this point, I'm just practicing how to shoot bad.

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That post provided a lot of useful information. So...

1. You're rushing things. Before you've learned how to shoot well or even adequately, your moving into competition. Seeing that you aren't that good at it you're disappointed, out of all proportion, at the results.

2. "there just isn't anyplace in my home that I'm comfortable with an ND." Well that's good. No one should be comfortable with an ND. Follow the 4 basic rules and you won't have one. Relax and practice. The 4 rules are interlocking. Violate one and you will still be able to safely dry fire.

3. "At this point I'm just practicing how to shoot bad." Heck yeah! Then getting irritated with yourself that you can't shoot better. If you can't stand still at 10 yards and place all 18 rounds (2 reloads) into a 6" bull reliably you won't get better at it by speeding up.

3. Take you're time and relax.

Many years ago my old gun club ran an IDPA style match every month. We ran a few revolver friendly matches, i.e. 6 rounds per magazine. Those matches humbled a lot of fast shoooters as they were not used to reloading. We all learned to slow down on the spray and pray and speed up the reload. It takes time and practice to get good.

It sounds like with the latest advice you could get on the right track. One more thing, how much recoil are you trying to shoot with? You mentioned 44 Magnum, but I think I understand you're shooting .44 Special. I don't know how much that recoils in the gun you're using, but you might want to practice with less.

DB, do yourself a favor and try the same drills with a low recoil single action, semi auto like a 9mm 1911. Try to borrow one if possible with a red dot sight. In other words just for argument's sake, try to make the shooting as easy as possible.

I can't shoot a double action trigger for the same reason as you. I pull it down and to the side every time. I can't see a target very well at 15+ yards. But with my 9mm 1911 and the red dot sight I am right on target...the right target! Sure longer distances mean more scatter, but not the systemic repeated error you were describing. Give yourself a better chance to be good. Then after you see those results, you can decide what you want to do: get better revolver training or switch to a single action semi auto.

Now if you want a "major" gun, use an all steel .45 ACP 1911 for the experiment.. It is relatively soft shooting when you get close to the major classification minimum of 165 power factor. In fact if you can't borrow what you need, you can get an ATI for $329 delivered from Smoky Mountain Guns and Ammo and have your own. A green dot Sightmark Mini Pro Spec from Amazon is $85 and a red dot mount for the mini dovetail is under $20.

D.B. Cooper said:

To bring this back to training at Gunsight, I'm not sure the benefit of paying $1700 for instruction, plus lodging and food costs, plus airfare, only to have the same experience I get every week at my local range--of struggling to keep up with 50 Glocks.

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^^^ I agree. For what I think you want to accomplish I think money would be better spent elsewhere.

D.B. Cooper said:

So the moral of the story is, changing to a high capacity 9mm isn't going to help me, and neither is getting some training; I'll still be dead last.

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No No No

Let me repeat: No No No

I believe you want to excel. You need to convince yourself that you can excel. Forget what others are doing concentrate on what you are doing.

You must find a place that you can dry fire every day. It does not have to be big. My sister was a many times and many state Jr. Smallbore Rifle Champion when she was a kid, her dry fire range was a narrow 3' wide hallway. If you can't move while dry fire practicing then you can't move but being stationary and practicing is way better than no practice at all. Do your draws and trigger work in a closet if you must and then "air gun" in the living room but do something.

I want to say a few things to you about spending money on lessons but don't want to say so in public so I'm sending you a PM.

D.B. Cooper said:

Whatever I do, it won't be with a 1911. I absolutely hate that gun. Primarily because of the grip safety.

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Understood. But still, just try it. You don’t have to marry the gun. Just take it out to lunch.

D.B. Cooper said:

So the moral of the story is, changing to a high capacity 9mm isn't going to help me, and neither is getting some training; I'll still be dead last

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D.B. Cooper said:

I'm still missing too much, which requires me to fire continually at the same target and reload and fire some more. I haven't yet figured out when to walk away from a target after having missed it x number of times. Slowing down doesn't seem to help my hit ratio, either

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You need to work on your fundamentals and your self-image. Both are discussed somewhat in this currently-active thread:

https://thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/mechanics-of-the-double-action-trigger-pull.847793/

Revolvers in competition can't (afford to) miss. The first commandment of revolver shooting in competition is "Thou shalt not miss" This applies especially to steel. Work on your shooting fundamentals. If your fundamentals are weak when there's no time stress, you can't hope they're any better when you speed up. Spend a lot of time shooting itty bitty groups, in double action, of course, and under no time constraints and using an official NRA-type bullseye target. You'd be doing this a lot, so in a perfect world you'd have a .22 revolver (e.g. S&W Model 617) to save money on ammo. Ideally, you should get to the point where you're able to shoot 3" 5-round groups at 25 yards in double action and under no time constraints.

Quality dry fire is an important supplement to this as well. Live- or dry-fire, emphasis should be awareness of the front sight and trigger control (through the entire shot).

As far as self-image, that'll improve as you see improvement in your fundamentals. Right now, I get the impression you're putting the cart before the horse by trying to smoke a rapid fire stage, and getting frustrated. It doesn't sound like you have the basic skills to do that just yet, so I'd step back and work on getting a solid foundation.

BTW, how far are you willing to travel? Looks like it'd be pretty far no matter where you'd go.