Star BM timing issue/primer smear

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Robk13

Robk13

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  • Hello all, I recently purchased one of those little Star model BMs and so far I'm delighted. I replaced the mainspring before I did anything, then removed the extractor and disassembled to remove any and all grime. When I reinstalled the captive main spring I turned the nut part that rides on the barrel all the way in then out about 3/4 of a turn. This made the slide fit much tighter to the frame and now doesn't have any slack when cocked and shaken. Before it was rattling to all hell (like an GI 1911) but I figured I'd leave it be for now.
  • So I test fired 1 mag of Remington 124 grain fmj and some 124 grain Men German nato bullets. Everything functioned flawlessly, however I recovered the cases to see how well the firing pin performed and there is a slight "smear" on the primer from the FP. I've heard this is a "timing issue" any info on how to cure this is greatly appreciated, my OCD is kicking in on getting this pistol to eject without smearing.
  • Is this common for this type of pistol or should I replace the firing pin spring? Also I'm curious if turning the captive main spring nut out 3/4 of a turn could impact this?
 

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Robk13 said:
  • Hello all, I recently purchased one of those little Star model BMs and so far I'm delighted. I replaced the mainspring before I did anything, then removed the extractor and disassembled to remove any and all grime. When I reinstalled the captive main spring I turned the nut part that rides on the barrel all the way in then out about 3/4 of a turn. This made the slide fit much tighter to the frame and now doesn't have any slack when cocked and shaken. Before it was rattling to all hell (like an GI 1911) but I figured I'd leave it be for now.
  • So I test fired 1 mag of Remington 124 grain fmj and some 124 grain Men German nato bullets. Everything functioned flawlessly, however I recovered the cases to see how well the firing pin performed and there is a slight "smear" on the primer from the FP. I've heard this is a "timing issue" any info on how to cure this is greatly appreciated, my OCD is kicking in on getting this pistol to eject without smearing.
  • Is this common for this type of pistol or should I replace the firing pin spring? Also I'm curious if turning the captive main spring nut out 3/4 of a turn could impact this?
Click to expand...
Welcome to the forum!

Firing pin drag or smear can damage the pin over time. This is caused by the pin remaining forward while the slide is recoiling and the link is pulling the barrel down and out of battery. Look for excessive wear on the slide shelf that cams the hammer, the hammer itself, the barrel link, and locking lugs (both on the barrel and slide). Also check to make sure the firing pin isnt binding in its channel which could mean a bent pin, or excessive grime and old grease gumming it up. Lastly, make sure the firing pin return spring isnt weak, missing, or broken.
 
If it ain't broke don't fix it. Put it back the way it was and see if it still "smears" the primers. Find some other way to "tighten things" up. Buy another Star for spare parts. You will likely need them.

M
 
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"Firing pin drag or smear can damage the pin over time. This is caused by the pin remaining forward while the slide is recoiling and the link is pulling the barrel down and out of battery."

I fully agree with the comment and the problem is Star has been defunct for quite awhile now and parts are rapidly drying up. I would not make this a heavy use firearm.
 
M1key said:
If it ain't broke don't fix it. Put it back the way it was and see if it still "smears" the primers. Find some other way to "tighten things" up or buy another Star for spare parts. You will likely need them.

M
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Thanks everyone for the replies, I am quickly appreciating this fourm.

I will get everything checked out and try to post a few pics. I'm going to blow out the FP channel and test fire then turn the nut on the captive main spring back in and test fire again.

It's too bad star tanked because I love the way this pistol feels, just like a slender 1911 but in cheap 9mm. I have all the replacement parts I thought I'd need. 2 firing pins 2 extractors a barrel some barrel links some springs ECT ECT. I was planning on shooting it occasionally at the range no more than 300 rds a month.

I have also heard many speak to the same school of thought as GunnyUSMC and m1key. If it's common place I will just keep on shooting but I have never noticed it on my 1911s or hi power.

@M1key when you say another way of tightening things up how could one go about doing that? I'm new to a captive recoil set up. Also can anyone explain how loosened up or tightened up the recoil spring nut actually makes the slide tighter or looser and does this place more stress on the barrel link?

Thanks again for everyone's input!
 
Robk13 said:
Thanks everyone for the replies, I am quickly appreciating this fourm.

I will get everything checked out and try to post a few pics. I'm going to blow out the FP channel and test fire then turn the nut on the captive main spring back in and test fire again.

It's too bad star tanked because I love the way this pistol feels, just like a slender 1911 but in cheap 9mm. I have all the replacement parts I thought I'd need. 2 firing pins 2 extractors a barrel some barrel links some springs ECT ECT. I was planning on shooting it occasionally at the range no more than 300 rds a month.

I have also heard many speak to the same school of thought as GunnyUSMC and m1key. If it's common place I will just keep on shooting but I have never noticed it on my 1911s or hi power.

@M1key when you say another way of tightening things up how could one go about doing that? I'm new to a captive recoil set up. Also can anyone explain how loosened up or tightened up the recoil spring nut actually makes the slide tighter or looser and does this place more stress on the barrel link?

Thanks again for everyone's input!
Click to expand...

I dont see how the recoil spring could cause this if everything else is in spec, but perhaps with compound wear......

In any event, it cant hurt to try a few different tension settings and see if it helps.

I dont doubt Gunny when he says he sees it often, as he shoots guns daily for a living and examines the cases closely, though I have never noticed it myself. To my way of thinking, though, this shouldnt be happening on a properly functioning pistol unless something is binding or worn.

Never had a BM myself, but I have 2 Firestars and they have been flawless. :D
 
The drag mark from the firing pin is a timing issue. Some gun designs just have better timing. 1911s tend to leave very little to no drag mark, but a S&W M&P leaves a good one. We nicknamed the older Taurus handguns Tore Eye because, they leave a long drag mark. THe Browning Hi Power leaves a very short drag mark that can be hard to see. The Ruger P series pistols have a short drag mark that turns to the right.
Drag marks from a firing pin is more common then most people think.

On page three of this topic you can see some pics.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/what-kind-of-guns-do-the-bad-guys-carry.847899/
 
Nightlord40k that's what I'll probably do. I talked to my brother earlier and he said 2 of his Glocks and his Norinco Tokarev smear about like that, but I'm kind of like you it seems like it's incorrect to me.
That being said Gunny has by far and away more experience than I do in this area so he is most likely correct. Probably me being more anal than I need to be but hey it's a hobby
And thanks to everyone again for your input and advice, I'll shoot the thing as is for now maybe try another spring later on.

Here's a few photos of the little Spanish pistol I'm pretty proud of it. Reminds me of the finish of a 1911A1 I once had and hefty like it too!
 

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GunnyUSMC said:
The drag mark from the firing pin is a timing issue. Some gun designs just have better timing. 1911s tend to leave very little to no drag mark, but a S&W M&P leaves a good one. We nicknamed the older Taurus handguns Tore Eye because, they leave a long drag mark. THe Browning Hi Power leaves a very short drag mark that can be hard to see. The Ruger P series pistols have a short drag mark that turns to the right.
Drag marks from a firing pin is more common then most people think.

On page three of this topic you can see some pics.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/what-kind-of-guns-do-the-bad-guys-carry.847899/
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link Gunny!! It's hard to believe this is the first time I've noticed this! It's a sound relief to know that it's a common occurrence though. Interesting idea to think about the timing and design aspects of a firearm. Very good information in your link and quite interesting!
 
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The firing pin is a lot harder then the primer or brass. Not a problem.

"Primer wipe" is a teardrop-shaped firing pin impression, accompanied by a drag mark (scratch or gouge) following the "point" of the teardrop and leading away from the primer, sometimes into the brass. This is because the firing pin does not fully retract after the round has fired and the slide is traveling back during ejection, causing the case to drag across the firing pin as it is thrown clear. It is not in any way harmful, except sometimes to the case if the primer pocket edge is gouged. Kahr will tell you it is a normal condition for their pistols, even saying so in the owner's manual.
 
Thank you for the information, interesting that they even go so far as to put that in their manuals. If it's okay with kahr it's okay with me!! This must be one of those guns that does it by design.
 
A few things happen when a semi auto is fired. The primer is pushed to the rear, slamming into the breach face. This will transfer any tool markings on to the primer. Then there is primer flow back. This is where the some of the primer flows along the tip of the firing pin and into the firing pin aperture in the breach face. As the slide starts to move to the rear, the barrel slightly drops. If any of the primer flow back is in the firing pin aperture it is sheared off, leaving what is called shear marks. The firing pin drag mark is at 12 o’clock and shear marks are at 6 o’clock.
When entering cartridge cases into the NIBIN system, the primer drag mark helps to line it up. If a cartridge case doesn’t have a drag mark, then you have to look for the extractor and ejector marks to line it up. In this pic you can see how the 12 o’clock drag mark is placed at 3 o’clock and the shear mark at 9 o’clock. This cartridge case was fired from a Taurus PT111 G2 or a G2C. The ring around the firing pin strike that has the shear marks is from the primer flow back.
7A354B18-84B7-4F17-89C7-A2A2BF8DBE19.jpeg
 
GunnyUSMC said:
A few things happen when a semi auto is fired. The primer is pushed to the rear, slamming into the breach face. This will transfer any tool markings on to the primer. Then there is primer flow back. This is where the some of the primer flows along the tip of the firing pin and into the firing pin aperture in the breach face. As the slide starts to move to the rear, the barrel slightly drops. If any of the primer flow back is in the firing pin aperture it is sheared off, leaving what is called shear marks. The firing pin drag mark is at 12 o’clock and shear marks are at 6 o’clock.
When entering cartridge cases into the NIBIN system, the primer drag mark helps to line it up. If a cartridge case doesn’t have a drag mark, then you have to look for the extractor and ejector marks to line it up. In this pic you can see how the 12 o’clock drag mark is placed at 3 o’clock and the shear mark at 9 o’clock. This cartridge case was fired from a Taurus PT111 G2 or a G2C. The ring around the firing pin strike that has the shear marks is from the primer flow back.
View attachment 827720
Click to expand...
Neato, thanks Gunny!

I dont suppose its possible to check the database for samples from a Star BM?
 
I was going to bring mine to work with me this morning but forgot.
I don’t think I have ever had a Star BM come across my desk at work.
 
I've got a couple of BM's, don't think I've noticed this on mine. Haven't looked that closely. I've got MEN 124, don't have Remington. I do have some other 115 and 124 gr, S&B, Fiocchi and Yavex (Yavex is really hot, def NATO and maybe approaching +P).

Gunny, based on your listed location, I'm not far from you- neighboring parish, in Central. Let me know if you want to give them a run, I'm sure we can work something out ;)
 
The stuff classic has on sale that says Ruag ammotech made in Switzerland is pretty hot also. It also attracts a magnet harder than any other 9mm I've ever seen!! Fiocchi and Men are a staple for me in 9mm! I'm curious but does your Men ammo have NATO printed on the front?

Interesting Gunny that you have never had a star show up in your profession. Maybe they too know parts for these pistols are hard to come by!
 
Robk13 said:
I'm curious but does your Men ammo have NATO printed on the front?
Click to expand...
I think the MEN has it, have to check. It's the white box stuff. I've gotten both MEN and S&B white box, both with and without the NATO cross stamp.
Robk13 said:
The stuff classic has on sale that says Ruag ammotech made in Switzerland is pretty hot also
Click to expand...
Haven't tried that yet. Re the Yavex, I have both 115 and 124 grain. The 124 is, I think, the hottest stuff I've shot, and I won't shoot that out of the BMs anymore. I get serious fireballs even out of fullsize guns with 5 inch barrels; with the BMs it's approaching beachball size. I'm leaving that to my CZ and other stout guns.
I've read up and the Stars apparently were intended for hotter Spanish loads, but still, I'm hesitant to beat them up too much.
 
lsudave said:
I've got a couple of BM's, don't think I've noticed this on mine. Haven't looked that closely. I've got MEN 124, don't have Remington. I do have some other 115 and 124 gr, S&B, Fiocchi and Yavex (Yavex is really hot, def NATO and maybe approaching +P).

Gunny, based on your listed location, I'm not far from you- neighboring parish, in Central. Let me know if you want to give them a run, I'm sure we can work something out ;)
Click to expand...
Central just down the road. We may just have to get together and see who’s BM shoots the dest.
 
lsudave said:
I think the MEN has it, have to check. It's the white box stuff. I've gotten both MEN and S&B white box, both with and without the NATO cross stamp.
Haven't tried that yet. Re the Yavex, I have both 115 and 124 grain. The 124 is, I think, the hottest stuff I've shot, and I won't shoot that out of the BMs anymore. I get serious fireballs even out of fullsize guns with 5 inch barrels; with the BMs it's approaching beachball size. I'm leaving that to my CZ and other stout guns.
I've read up and the Stars apparently were intended for hotter Spanish loads, but still, I'm hesitant to beat them up too much.
Click to expand...
That's kind of how I'm treating the Ruag Swiss 124s, feels like smg ammo to me so it's being set aside for stouter weapons but my star likes the men NATO alot as well as fiocchi and so far no peening or lug damage to speak of (I watch very closely). I've heard the same about these being made for "hot Spanish Santa Barbara ammo" but I've never found a reliable source of this ammo being chronographed.

Where do you get the yavex and who makes it? 50rds of that hidden away doesn't sound too bad to me.

Also I just changed the barrel link in my BM to one of those bar stock ones made by EGW and it's a tighter fit in the gun. The new links are higher quality and definitely better finished. I recommend anyone with a star BM to grab up some of those while they're still making them.
 
Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but don't the BM have a "protruding" firing pin like the Tokarov TT33 where the firing pin protrudes when the slide is forward and the hammer down -- Its extremely dangerous to lower the hammer and leave it with a live round in the chamber with guns of this design -- why the original "Peacemaker" revolver were carried with an empty chamber under the hammer.

This protrusion tends to aggravate the propensity for firing pin drag marks on the primer.
 
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