Finally got a grail gun - S&W Triple-Lock

Status
Not open for further replies.

jmace57

Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2011
Messages
956
Location
Texas
I bought the below Triple-Lock a couple of weeks ago in an auction. It is one of the British WW1 contract and is serial number 225. It is in nice shape, but has had the cylinder (455 Webley) shaved to handle 45 Auto Rim cartridges. I have been wanting one for years, and I wanted a shooter. It has all of the British WW1 stampings...and all of the post-WW2 stampings (BNP, NOT ENGLISH MAKE). In really good mechanical condition.

TL1.jpg

TL2.jpg
 
Since its shaved for .45 AR, the regular .45 ACP will work with moon clips, right?
 
If it works with 45 Auto Rim, then in theory it should work with 45 ACP in moon clips.
But I'd watch for issues with the primer flow as it's struck.
I'd definitely watch that before going all out with multiple clips or extra clip carriers.
 
I have read to either use Auto Rim, or handloaded (light) 45 ACP loads as it was pre-heat treatment and 45 ACP has higher pressures.
 
I can see the worry in a Webley that was converted but the triple lock? Isn't this the same gun that Elmer and Skeeter were hot rodding .44 SPL loads before the Advent of the magnum? Not saying for you to load something crazy but I wouldn't believe that you need to baby it either.
 
I can see the worry in a Webley that was converted but the triple lock? Isn't this the same gun that Elmer and Skeeter were hot rodding .44 SPL loads before the Advent of the magnum? Not saying for you to load something crazy but I wouldn't believe that you need to baby it either.
These guns were not heat-treated and the metallurgy isn't all that hot. Why risk damaging a collector's item? If you have to have hot loads, sell it, buy a new .44 Mag and pocket the difference.
 
These guns were not heat-treated and the metallurgy isn't all that hot. Why risk damaging a collector's item? If you have to have hot loads, sell it, buy a new .44 Mag and pocket the difference.
I didn't say to hotrod it, I said if they are the same guns they hit rodded then you don't need to baby them. I would think they can take regular spec .45 ACP loads. Hell in 1917 Smith made that exact revolver from the factory.
 
I didn't say to hotrod it, I said if they are the same guns they hit rodded then you don't need to baby them. I would think they can take regular spec .45 ACP loads. Hell in 1917 Smith made that exact revolver from the factory.
The Model 1917 was the first revolver Smith heat-treated -- because the Army required it. Colt had been heat treating cylinders since 1903.
 
Beautiful triple lock OP!

Myself, I see the cylinder shaved for Auto Rims as a plus. That is all that I shoot through my S&W 1917 (1937 Brazilian).
 
jmace57,

Didn't know you posted your British contract Triple Lock No 225 on this forum as well. Here's the civilian production Triple Lock in .44 Special, also serial number 225, that I own. Posted here for the benefit of those not on the Smith & Wesson forum. 20190224_085920.jpg
 

Attachments

  • 20190224_085945.jpg
    20190224_085945.jpg
    85.7 KB · Views: 2
  • 20190224_090021.jpg
    20190224_090021.jpg
    79.1 KB · Views: 2
  • 20190224_090152.jpg
    20190224_090152.jpg
    70.2 KB · Views: 2
At the risk of starting a bloody argument, let me point out the Triple Lock doesn't work. That is, no one can show that guns made after S&W dropped the triple lock feature are less accurate, or wear out faster than guns with the lock.

One probable reason is that the triple lock is backward -- the actual lock is a pin in the frame pressed backward by a spring that locks into a hole in a tab dovetailed into the crane. The pin is an "object at rest" and tends to stay at rest under recoil, compressing the spring and partially (and sometimes totally) unlocking. When S&W came out with a retro-version about 20 years ago, they reversed that -- the lock was a ball bearing in the tab, and was pressed forward to engage a seat in the crane. With this arrangement, it locked tighter under recoil.
 
At the risk of starting a bloody argument, let me point out the Triple Lock doesn't work. That is, no one can show that guns made after S&W dropped the triple lock feature are less accurate, or wear out faster than guns with the lock.

One probable reason is that the triple lock is backward -- the actual lock is a pin in the frame pressed backward by a spring that locks into a hole in a tab dovetailed into the crane. The pin is an "object at rest" and tends to stay at rest under recoil, compressing the spring and partially (and sometimes totally) unlocking. When S&W came out with a retro-version about 20 years ago, they reversed that -- the lock was a ball bearing in the tab, and was pressed forward to engage a seat in the crane. With this arrangement, it locked tighter under recoil.


I'm your huckleberry.

With all due respect, your description is slightly incorrect. The 3rd lock of the Triple Lock is a tapered pin mounted in the underlug of the barrel, not the frame. In the photo below the arrow on the right points to that pin. The arrow in the center of the photo is pointing to the 'companion' (my own description) pin that mates into a hole in the end of the ejector rod, not much different than on most Hand Ejectors. This assembly is held in place by the two pins shown in the photo. I have never driven the pins out to see for sure, but my suspicion is that both pins are actually one 'U' shaped piece of steel. With one spring pushing both of them backwards.

Triple%20Lock%20Mechanism%2002%20SN%20ALTERED%20with%20arrows_zpszdyjquua.jpg




Here is another view of the assembly.

Triple%20Lock%20Mechanism%2001_zpsfhjibozz.jpg




The third pin pops into a hardened insert mounted in the yoke. There is no dovetail involved, the insert is held in place by screw at the rear of the yoke. The insert was case hardened for wear resistance. All the colors have worn off this one, but the hardness is still there. You can see the mark made by the 3rd pin as it rides up a ramped groove in the insert before popping home in the hole. You will also note in the first two photos that the pin is tapered, to help it find its way into the hole.

Hardened%20Cylinder%20Insert%20enhanced_zpspygr7rpj.jpg




This 44 Special Triple Lock shipped in 1907. It is a very early one, the SN is under 200. Note that the caliber marking on the barrel says 44 S&W CTG. The 44 S&W SPECIAL CTG markings came about the next year.

Triple%20Lock%2001_zps5ilw6ied.jpg




Regarding the latch disengaging under recoil, the spring on the 3rd latch of this Triple Lock is stiffer than the spring in the latch under the barrel of the 44 Hand Ejector 2nd Model pictured below.

44%20HE%202nd%20Model%20SN%2020620%2002_zpsluk0foc2.jpg




So if the 2nd Model, with its weaker spring does not unlatch in recoil, and it does not, why in the world would the stiffer spring of the Triple Lock allow the latch to disengage under recoil?

I have not put boat loads of rounds through the old Triple Lock, but I can assure you with my mild 44 Special rounds it had no problem.

I don't believe anyone ever claimed the 3rd lock made the Triple Lock more accurate, it was just a marketing strategy that S&W employed to help push sales of their new 44 Special revolver, the first N frame Hand Ejector the company made.

Roy Jinks states in his book History of Smith and Wesson, published in 1977, that sales of the Triple Lock were slow, with only about 2,200 Triple Locks sold per year. So after 15,375 Triple Locks were made, the 3rd latch was dropped from production. The price of the Triple Lock at the time was $21. When the 3rd latch was dropped from production in 1915 the price of a 44 Hand Ejector 2nd Model was $19. This reflects the extra cost of manufacturing the 3rd latch.

Also, I have read reports that the British were not enthusiastic about the 3rd latch, believing that battlefield mud could enter the slot where the 3rd latch lived, disabling the gun. The more open design of the 2nd Model was less prone to being disabled by mud.

Regarding the ball plunger S&W is putting in some of its revolvers today, it is a cheap solution to get rid of the latch under the barrel. Dropping in a pre-manufactured ball plunger into the frame is very inexpensive. Less expensive than making up the complex rods and springs necessary for a traditional under barrel latch.

I ain't gonna get into the pissing match about how stout the loads should be in a Triple Lock. I only shoot mild handloads through mine. No need to over stress a gun that would be difficult to replace.

Most Triple Locks were chambered for 44 Special. According the SCSW calibers included 44 Special, 44 Russian, 44-40, 455 Mark II,and 38-40. 23 are reported to have been chambered for 45 Colt. 1226 are reported to have been chambered for 450 Eley. There were even a few chambered for 22 Long Rifle. The great majority, 13,753, were chambered for 44 Special.

Kudos to the OP for his find, shoot it in good health.
 
Last edited:
Yep -- and that pin (in the frame) points backward. So when the gun recoils, it tends to remain stationary, which is to say it tends to unlock.

And as I pointed out, no one has ever shown that triple-locks were more accurate or more durable than the guns without the lock.
 
I have fired over a thousand rounds through multiple Triple Lock revolvers and never have had one of them unlock when firing.

An engraved firearm is not more durable than one that is not engraved, nor is the engraved one more accurate. As with a Triple Lock, some folks appreciate fine workmanship.

While we are at it, IF a Triple Lock were to be produced today, any guess as to what retail on it might be? I would guess $2499.
 
As my photo clearly shows, the pin is not in the frame, it is mounted under the barrel.

And I also cannot see why recoil would cause the pin to unlock any more than the pin in a conventional Hand Ejector, where the pin is also under the barrel and the spring pushes it backwards.

And as I said earlier, the spring in the Triple Lock (I have three of them) is stiffer than the corresponding springs in a conventional Hand Ejector.

In fact, the engagement of the 3rd latch is much deeper than the engagement of the normal Hand Ejector latch under the barrel.

So it would take some pretty stout recoil indeed to compress the spring enough to disengage the 3rd latch.

I have not had any experience with the pin unlocking under recoil.

Have you?

Regarding accuracy, I have no argument with you. S&W put the 3rd latch in purely as a promotional ploy. They probably just did it to show they could. When sales were not so great, they discontinued the idea. Because it was so expensive to machine it they never bothered to do it again, latching the cylinder at the rear and the front of the extractor rod proved sufficient. I never said that the 3rd latch was supposed to make the guns more durable or accurate, my disagreement with you is over your contention that the guns tended to unlatch under recoil.
 
As my photo clearly shows, the pin is not in the frame, it is mounted under the barrel.
It also shows the pin points backwards.

And I also cannot see why recoil would cause the pin to unlock any more than the pin in a conventional Hand Ejector, where the pin is also under the barrel and the spring pushes it backwards.
An object at rest tends to stay at rest.
Regarding accuracy, I have no argument with you. S&W put the 3rd latch in purely as a promotional ploy.
Exactly right. Which is my point. The third lock does not contribute to accuracy, strength or durability. Which is to say, it doesn't work..
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top