158 LSWC and 2400

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Lee Q. Loader

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Recently I've read other threads where many of you recommend 14 to 14.5 grains of 2400 and a 158 LSWC as a great load for 357 mag. I would guess that load would be around 1200 fps velocity in a 4 inch barrel.
I have always believed, (incorrectly I think), that if you push a lead bullet that fast you will lead your barrel, unless the bullet has a gas check.

Maybe I don't correctly understand the purpose of the gas-checked bullets. Anyone care to educate me? :)

I would really like to try this load in my 357, it's a 4 inch Security Six. I have a good quantity of SNS 158 LSWC sized to .358", and last time I was at Sportsman's Warehouse they had a bunch of 2400.
I've been loading .357 mag for a long time, but I've always used jacketed bullets, the lead bullets are for my .38 special.
Will I see leading with the 2400 load? Any advice for this load would be appreciated.
 
Are the SNS bullets coated? If so, I doubt you'll see any leading at all. If not coated, I'd just try a few and see.
 
Here's what Montana Bullet Works has to say about gas checks:

Gas checks serve two purposes. First and foremost, a gas check helps protect the all important base of the bullet from gas cutting. Hot propellant gases can strip tiny pieces of lead from the bullet base causing poor accuracy and leading problems. The copper gas check, with a BHN of about 100, also helps grip the rifling and can produce better accuracy in maximum velocity loads. Revolvers are particularly hard on cast bullets. In the cylinder, the bullet is hammered with the initial combustion of powder and forced to conform, read enlarge, to fill the cylinder throat. Moving out of the cylinder, the bullet passes an unrestricted space of between .002 and .008 or more inches between the cylinder face and the barrels’ forcing cone. More distortion. Finally, the bullet slams into the forcing cone and is distorted again to fill the dimensions of the bore. Very hard passage for a mere lead slug. Production grade revolvers with their generous tolerances are particularly hard on lead bullets. Custom built guns like those from Freedom Arms, John Linebaugh, Hamilton Bowen and others, are built to such tight tolerances, that not only do they shoot cast bullets incredibly, almost eerily well, the bullets have to be sized a little smaller than normal to even chamber (which is one of the reasons we ask for the make and model of gun you intend to shoot when you place an order). The higher the psi and velocity of your load, the more sense it makes to choose a gas checked bullet.
 
Gas checks can come off in mid-flight. Bad for accuracy.

The SNS 158 LSWC lists a standard cast bullet alloy. The bullets should work well with 2400 powder.

I load 13.0 grs with my home cast 163 gr lswc. No gas check needed in 357 magnum.
 
Leading:

You hit the loud button, BANG, the bullets of to the races. The 1st thing the bullet has to do as it moves forward is seal the leade of the throats in the cylinders. Same bullets with different seating length/oals. The top bullet has a small gap around the nose, the bottom bullet is a tight fit in the leade.
99pBGCP.jpg If the leade/throats of the cylinders are smaller then the bore diameter, you'll get leading.

As the nose of the bullet enters the leade, the back/base/bottom drive band of the bullet has pressure exerted against it. That pressure is in the forum of hot gasses. That pressure not only pushes the bullet forward, it expands the bullets base (obturation) to seal the same leade/throat of the cylinders. The bullet enters the forcing cone & then the bbl. The bullets base of the bullet has to now seal the bbl. As the hot gasses put pressure on the base of the bullet it is also compressing the grease groove of the bullet. This compression of the grease groove forces the bullet lube outward & forward. Years ago on another website I was talking with a member about the differences between square lube grooves Vs round lube grooves. He sent me this picture, if you look closely you can see that the lube grooves of the recovered bullets are shorter/compressed.
M8QJ3DM.jpg
Another example of the bullet's lube groove compression. This is a hollow based hollow point cast lead swc.
Swqedh0.jpg

As the hot gasses expand the bullets base & compress the lube groove, some of the hot gasses get by the bullets base and into the lube groove. This pressurizes the lube groove and aids in pushing the lube outward along with forward lubing/sealing the middle/front drive bands. The lube as it is pushed forward will also seal any micro imperfections in the bbl.

Man/moment/machine time:
Have the right load (pressure) for the alloy of the bullet so that pressure can expand/seal the bullet's base, compress the lube groove and pressurize the lube groove. Get all these things correct and you will not have any leading.

Most leading occurs from using too hard of an alloy & flame cutting occurs to the bottom drive band and causes leading. Most commercial casters use to hard of a alloy/too hard of a lube. +/- 15bhn bullets doing 260fps+ in a 308w.
QCvbTnt.png
What the bore of that 308w looked like after 30 shots with that 2600fps+ load/15bhn lead bullets. A lot of people mistake antimonal wash for leading. The grey you see in the bbl easily comes out with a single pass of the brush.
kFuSQZL.png

Same bullet cast the same day as the lead bullets used on the target above. This time they were PC'd (coated) & shot from the same firearm/same load/same day/same everything. Note the same accuracy and yet there's 50fps when using the coated bullets.
tEeK5wb.jpg

This is why coated bullets are superior to their traditionally sized/lubed counterparts. You have to get the alloy perfect to the bullet design for the pressure of the load to be able to seal the bbl. The coated bullets already have the lube everywhere it needs to be and can do so with a lot wider range of alloys Excellent fit/excellent seal/excellent obturation leads to higher velocities and makes it easier to find accurate loads.

If you are not sure about your bullet/bullet design/alloy/lube, simple take Johnsen's paste wax and coat the heck out of the bullet's body. This will take the pressure of the load/correct alloy for the pressure/correct lube for the pressure out of play. Hence, seal the bbl just like coated bullets to stop the flame cutting that causes leading.
 
Not all bullets are created equal. Last year I did head to head testing with these 35cal hp's in a snubnosed 38spl.
0A0Ga7O.jpg
As you can see there's differences in the bullet's bases, number of lube groove, type of lube grooves, number of drive bands, different sizes of the middle/top drive bands. I've tested all these bullets in longer bbl'd 38spl & 357, the bullet design really didn't matter in the longer bbl.'s and hotter 357 loads. I already knew that some of those bullets pictured above always gave higher velocities then others but it was a real eye opener when I was testing 38spl p+ loads in a 2" bbl'd snubnosed revolver. These 4 bullets have always performed/given higher velocities & in that 2" bbl'd 38spl I was getting as much a 50ft+ over other bullets pictured above.
vlZBK9y.jpg
What they have in common is the ability to seal the cylinders/bbl.'s faster making them more efficient. The bullet on the left has a huge base/bottom drive band, same for the 148gr hbwc that was turned backwards. The 3rd bullet has a gc and the bullet on the far right is a home swaged jacketed hp made from 9mm cases.

In the 357's the bullet design really doesn't matter but if you have 38spl's why not buy a bullet design that performs at a extremely high level in the 38spls. I ended up using the bullet (green bullet top row 2nd from left) in the snubnosed 38spl with a 950fps load. I gave up a little velocity over the 4 bullets pictured above. But they are designed to perform at the lower velocities and they weigh in at 160gr coated. I also use those same bullets in a 2 1/2" bbl'd 357. I'm getting 1200fps with that bullet in the 2 1/2" bbl using 2400.

I know the op is using swc's but might as well bring up the difference in hp's. Of those 8 bullets pictured above the top row left, top row 2nd from the left (green) and the top row far right have hp's that are designed for lower velocities. That top right is a lyman 358156 bullet that was a special order It has a .156" hp pin compared to the standard .125" hp pin that was used in the top middle bullet (red 358439). The bullet in the bottom row center bullet is from the 1940's. It a cramer bullet and is called the "hunter" in there catalogs, it was specificcaly designed for the 357mag/small hp.

Same bullet different hp sizes/shapes.
Penta points ='s 800fps to 1000fps
large round hp ='s 1000fps to 1200fps
MGkzk5b.jpg

Anyway 1200fps with a 158gr cast bullet in a 4" bbl'd 357 should be child's play. With a good bullet design/correct alloy you should be in the 1300fps+ range with a 4" bbl.
 
Thanks everyone for the replies. Forrest, thanks for taking the time to educate me on leading. I'm going to give the load a try. I'll keep an eye out for leading and if it happens I know how to clean it out.
Thanks again!
 
Oh yeah, next question is, when my supply of lead bullets runs out, should I go to coated SWC for both the .38 special and .357 mag?
Do the coated bullets eliminate leading or just reduce the chances of leading?
 
12 or 12.5gr of 2400 has always been for me a nice, very accurate target load for 357 with a 158gr cast lead bullet. I've been shooting cast lead bullets for decades in many calibers and I just don't experience a leading problem that some others claim to have. Even in full house 44 Magnum loads with no gas checks.
I'm a target shooter and I have experienced accuracy issues not to my liking with coated lead bullets. For short range blasting ammo they are fine.
 
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The info is already here in the thread but just to repeat..... I have experienced leading with 14 grains of 2400 under a 160gr lead bullet......when the bullets were hard and undersized. Also when the bullets were VERY soft. With moderately hard bullets of proper size it is not an issue with plainbased bullets.
 
Oh yeah, next question is, when my supply of lead bullets runs out, should I go to coated SWC for both the .38 special and .357 mag?
Do the coated bullets eliminate leading or just reduce the chances of leading?

I'd go with coated bullets. Coated bullets not only reduce the chance of leading it's easier to find accurate loads with them.
 
Thanks everyone for the replies. Forrest, thanks for taking the time to educate me on leading. I'm going to give the load a try. I'll keep an eye out for leading and if it happens I know how to clean it out.
Thanks again!

It is just worth pointing out that there are no cast bullet recipes for 2400 currently on Alliant's site. I have, as have many others, loaded up as high as 15gr In heavy framed revolvers (IIRC, the old max was 15.2), but that was based on older loading manuals and is no longer shown on their site.
 
I don't recall reading Phil or Elmer to complain of leading with cast bullets in overloaded Specials and Magnums.
More than likely because they knew that they could shoot 16-1 or 20-1 bullets that fit their guns, without leading. I have pushed some 12-13 BHN, LSWC 44 caliber bullets to over 1,200 fps, but I used a decent lube and they fit my guns, with minimal/no leading...
 
I have only gotten leading once. I loaded up a 160gr cast bullet in a .357 Magnum case with a charge of HS-6 that was too high. I shot it then in a Levergun and I'm guessing they ran out of lube before leaving the barrel because the front half of the barrel showed considerable leading. I only fired 2 rounds because of the felt recoil before I looked. The rest of the rounds were pulled.

Note, the rounds were over pressure and the only time I saw leading in any of my guns. The excessive charge was my mistake, not done intentionally.
 
It is just worth pointing out that there are no cast bullet recipes for 2400 currently on Alliant's site. I have, as have many others, loaded up as high as 15gr In heavy framed revolvers (IIRC, the old max was 15.2), but that was based on older loading manuals and is no longer shown on their site.

Probably because Alliants website is pretty much useless compared to the amount of load data found elsewhere.:)
Lyman Cast manual is the place to look.

For the OP, just get coated bullets, SWC if need perfect holes .
 
It is just worth pointing out that there are no cast bullet recipes for 2400 currently on Alliant's site. I have, as have many others, loaded up as high as 15gr In heavy framed revolvers (IIRC, the old max was 15.2), but that was based on older loading manuals and is no longer shown on their site.

I emailed Alliant about their lack of cast bullet data for their 2400 powder. The reply was basically that they don't test with lead bullets because there are so many different designs out there..... or some such. I guess they don't want the liability. They pointed me to the Lyman cast book.
 
I have loaded at least six different lead swc bullets with 2400, from mild to almost max. Plain base 357446 is one of my favorites as is its gas checked cousin 358156. In 38 cases I use from 12 to 13.5 grains of 2400 and crimp in lower groove. In 357 cases I go up a grain. Gas checks do increase pressures. ( see Brian Pierce's articles on this). I have had little leading issues with either bullet and have cast from wheelweights and linotype both.
 
I emailed Alliant about their lack of cast bullet data for their 2400 powder. The reply was basically that they don't test with lead bullets because there are so many different designs out there..... or some such. I guess they don't want the liability. They pointed me to the Lyman cast book.

Good answer on the part of Alliant, but only a partial truth.

Even before alliant bought Hercules powder co, Hercules didn't have a lot of 2400/357 data. A link to a page out of the 1987 Hercules reloading manual showing their 357mag data/only 2 cast bullets.
https://i.imgur.com/jmCl4Wv.jpg

Alliant buy's out Hercules in 1994 and still has cast bullet & pressures listed in their reloading manuals until 2005. But there's still only 2 357mag loads listed for 2400.
http://castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Alliant/Alliant_2005.pdf

By 2008 alliant got smart and did a major over hall of their reloading manuals. The 2 main things they did was quit listing the pressures of the loads and use Speer bullets only for their 357mag loads. They still had cast/lead bullets for their cowboy action bullets/loads, but cowboy action loads do not use 2400 along with they heavily pushed the rcbs molds/bullets in their cowboy action loads. What's interesting about the 2008 357mag data in that manual is they still listed 1 lead bullet. A generic 158gr lead swc but they didn't list a rcbs mold # like they did in the cowboy action section.
http://castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Alliant/Alliant_2005.pdf

Alliant still doesn't push their rcbs molds, they mainly use the speer lead bullets in their modern reloading manuals/data. Those are a soft swaged bullets. That's why you don't see any powders used for "hot" loads listed in their modern manuals. It's either cowboy action loads or swaged bullet/low pressure loads.

Alliant see's no $$$ in pushing their rcbs line of molds or they could easily enough put out a reloading manual for their cast bullets that would be comparable to what lyman puts out. But at least they are smart enough not to put a lot of data out there that would help the competition either.
 
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