.338-06: The Song of the Sirens.

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sage5907 said:
I wouldn't recommend anyone get a 338-06 unless they first like a 30-06 because a 338-06 is just a super 30-06.
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Ya know, I dated a girl in college who was a lot like my wife, a couple in fact - I certainly have a type. They were great girls and I’m sure they are very happy and great wives for their husbands, but for me, they were not quite what my wife is. So my wife might just be a super version of those girls, or they a watered down version of my wife, but ONE fit, and the others didn’t...
 
Varminterror said:
Ya know, I dated a girl in college who was a lot like my wife, a couple in fact - I certainly have a type. They were great girls and I’m sure they are very happy and great wives for their husbands, but for me, they were not quite what my wife is. So my wife might just be a super version of those girls, or they a watered down version of my wife, but ONE fit, and the others didn’t...
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Ya know, I've been married over 40 years and I know a lot more about rifles that I do about women. My neighbor who has been married two times and after he got old had 3 live in girl friends says "if you understand women you are one." My wife says if I had to make a choice between her or my hunting she would pack her bags. That's a joke between the two of us but she likes to say it.
 
DM~ said:
I'm just wondering how you came to the conclusion that .338", 225's were a good weight bullet for the "biggest brown bears"? And will comfortably handle them???

DM
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Knowledge, and a wealth of experience. But thanks for asking.
 
LRDGCO said:
Knowledge, and a wealth of experience. But thanks for asking.
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So, you must have taken some big bears with that cartridge/bullet??

What 225 grain bullet did you use on them? Where did you hit the bear how did the bullet perform, and do you have any bullets you used to show how they expanded??

I'm anxious to hear of your experience on this...

DM
 
sage5907 said:
View attachment 829892 View attachment 829893

I wouldn't recommend anyone get a 338-06 unless they first like a 30-06 because a 338-06 is just a super 30-06. I have owned one for about 3 years, used it to take deer and hogs and I really like the cartridge. The second point is that you should use a familiar rifle because if you first don't like the rifle you won't like the cartridge. My rifle is a featherweight pre 64 Model 70 Winchester A-Square version that with scope and sling weighs 8 pounds 7 ounces. I have stuck to my original plan which was to use 180 grain bullets with a velocity between 2700 and 2800 fps. I selected the Nosler AccuBond because that was the only 180 grain bullet I could find. I tried several powders such as R 15, IMR 4064, R 16 and R 17 and I quickly found Reloader 17 to work really good. I can go up to 60 grains without any problems. I have no intent to shoot bullets heavier than 200 grains. Bottom line, I wanted a 338-06 for many years and I should have had one 30 years ago. I would have loved it in the mountains of Colorado. It really feels good when I shoot it but about 5 rounds is all I want at one time. The people who own the 338-06 always say it performs at a higher level than would be expected and I believe that to be true.
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Beautiful rifle.

From what I've heard - the 210 gr. NP is a wonder-bullet out of the 338-06, punching well above its weight. Would expect the 200 gr. Accubond and 210 gr. Swift Scirocco to do the same.

The Scirocco, for a 210 gr./.338 - has a crazy high BC of 0.507.

Starting at 2800 fps, it has a 6" MPBR (+/- 3") of 280 yards, and a manageable 2200 fps/2260 lb-ft/11" drop at 350, and 18" at 400... which is a hair flatter than both my .270 Win./150 gr. NP and 140 gr. TSX.




GR
 
Even if my understanding is that you don't really need it, I also hear you really want it. Furthermore, you will soon have a stress releaved barrel on a rifle you already master for a candidate at reboring. From my end of the Internet, this looks just like the perfect storm! Enjoy your new rifles and post some targets when you get to the load development part. :)
 
I know that song. I heard it a few years ago, crooning about .375 H&H's in classic looking rifles...I ended up on the rocks, but happily so.
Those are some really good arguments in favor of the .338-06. My interest had just as much to do with the history and romance of the .375 H&H, but if you are a numbers guy, the .338-06 is hard to beat in terms of performance and utility. I certainly wouldn't kick a .338-06 out of bed in the morning if I found myself involved after a moment of weakness.
 
Garandimal said:
Beautiful rifle.

From what I've heard - the 210 gr. NP is a wonder-bullet out of the 338-06, punching well above its weight. Would expect the 200 gr. Accubond and 210 gr. Swift Scirocco to do the same.GR
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Thanks for the good words. My rifle was planned around the 180 grain AccuBond because we don't need the heavier bullets here in Oklahoma. Even if I use the rifle for elk I will still use the 180 grain bullet because it's accurate, it hits really hard and has excellent penetration. My rifle weighs 8 and a half pounds and l I know that if I increase the bullet weight to 210 grains I will get a corresponding increase in recoil and I don't want that extra recoil. Many hunters who get a 338-06 and use the heavy bullets get rid of the rifle when they would continue to use it if they used the 180 grain bullet. My rifle is enjoyable to shoot when I pull it tightly into my shoulder but if I forget and hold it loosely it will tell me quickly. I look at GunBroker on occasion and I often see the Weatherby Mark V super light A-Square rifles for sale and I know it's because the owners can't stand the recoil.
 
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sage5907 said:
Thanks for the good words. My rifle was planned around the 180 grain AccuBond because we don't need the heavier bullets here in Oklahoma. Even if I use the rifle for elk I will still use the 180 grain bullet because it's accurate, it hits really hard and has excellent penetration. My rifle weighs 8 and a half pounds and l I know that if I increase the bullet weight to 210 grains I will get a corresponding increase in recoil and I don't want that extra recoil. Many hunters who get a 338-06 and use the heavy bullets get rid of the rifle when they would continue to use it if they used the 180 grain bullet. My rifle is enjoyable to shoot when I pull it tightly into my shoulder but if I forget and hold it loosely it will tell me quickly. I look at GunBroker on occasion and I often see the Weatherby Mark V super light A-Square rifles for sale and I know it's because the owners can't stand the recoil.
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Yeah, Mine will be that (8.5 lbs) as well.

Don't know what Weatherby was thinkin' - they even reduced the velocity of their outrageously expensive ammo in an attempt to mitigate it.

My first though for the .338-06 was to rebore a 10.5 lb. M1 Garand! (and still might, if the rest of the program goes through)


For me, the 225's are what the rifle is for - but the 210's sound useful as well. Don't plan to go below that unless it's the only rifle.




GR
 
silicosys4 said:
I know that song. I heard it a few years ago, crooning about .375 H&H's in classic looking rifles...I ended up on the rocks, but happily so.
Those are some really good arguments in favor of the .338-06. My interest had just as much to do with the history and romance of the .375 H&H, but if you are a numbers guy, the .338-06 is hard to beat in terms of performance and utility. I certainly wouldn't kick a .338-06 out of bed in the morning if I found myself involved after a moment of weakness.
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Just read an online article about "Enough Gun" for Elk.

The author was obviously suffering from both Magnumitis and myopia.

First, he states that a "True" Elk rifle needs, at the animal, > 2,000 fps/2,000 lb-ft/300 yds.

Then he goes on to dismiss the .338-06 and .35 Whelen out of hand.


The .338-06 will drive a 225 gr. bullet at > 2650 fps. and the 210's at ~ 2800 from a 22" Bbl.

If that 225 gr. bullet is an NP? It carries 2K/2K to 350 yds.

If it's a 225 gr. Accubond? 425 yds!


And if you subscribe to the notion of a "Big Bear" rifle needing > 2,400 fps/3,000 lb-ft at the animal?

The .338-06 will drive the 225 gr. NP and Accubond to that at 100/125 yds respectively, and the 210 gr. TSX and Scirocco at 125/150.

And I need a magnum... why?




GR
 
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I hunted big bears for many years and yes I've killed a few... My cartridge of choice is the .338-06 and MY experience is, I want more bullet than 225 grain for big bears.

Sure a lighter bullet will kill a big "anything", with a rib shot, "eventually", the problem is, I don't want to be restricted to rib shots, I don't want to wait for the rib shot to work, and rib shots just don't always happen in the first place.

I'd be willing to bet, those that think/say a .338-225 is great out of a .338-06 as a big bear bullet, have never used one, or seen one used on a big bear!

Another thing, MY working with .338-06 and the imp. version since the "70's", they don't push bullets as fast as I keep seeing quoted! Will they if you push the pressure way up? Yes, but keeping the pressures where they should be, those bullets are no where near a .338 Win. mag. velocities..

DM
 
Garandimal said:
The .338-06.

Don't know exactly why - but it sings to me.

First started "luring me into the rocks" when Reagan was President.

After copious research, I managed to talk myself out of the wildcat because, while it was an elegant cartridge, ...I had a perfectly good .270 Win, and the .338-06 needed to be blown out (AI) and run down a fairly long Bbl. to make the desired 225 gr. bullet velocity.

Since then - it always seemed to be the first irrational answer to any reasonable question rifle.

"Why not a .338-06?"

Fast-forward almost Four(4) decades.

- The cartridge/chamber is now SAAMI Standardized. (.338-06 A-Square)
- Head-stamped Brass is available.
- New .338 cal. bullets are available, both bonded and monometal (TSX).
- Reloader-17 Powder was released.

Now, w/ RL-17, the .338-06 can push a 225 gr. NP or Accubond well in excess of 2700 fps, and the 210 gr. NP/Scirocco/TSX close to 2850 fps, all out of a 24" Bbl, w/ only a small drop (40 fps?) when the Bbl. length goes to 22".

This gives the .338-06 the energy of (and, when zeroed at 200, a 300 yard trajectory/drop only about an inch greater than) that of the mighty 200 gr./.300 Win. Mag.

All with a .30-06 case and Ten(10) grains less powder.

Elegant.


Which brings me to my current dilemma.

Getting ready to drop the hammer on a new Stainless/Composite M70 .270 Win.

Still have the ole M700 .270 Win.


J E S can re-bore it for $250 shipped.

"...why not a .338-06?"


Comments/Questions/Concerns appreciated.




GR
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Indeed. Why not a .338-06? Life is too short to not explore the possibilities of the siren song...
JMHO, of course......
 
DM~ said:
I hunted big bears for many years and yes I've killed a few... My cartridge of choice is the .338-06 and MY experience is, I want more bullet than 225 grain for big bears.

Sure a lighter bullet will kill a big "anything", with a rib shot, "eventually", the problem is, I don't want to be restricted to rib shots, I don't want to wait for the rib shot to work, and rib shots just don't always happen in the first place.

I'd be willing to bet, those that think/say a .338-225 is great out of a .338-06 as a big bear bullet, have never used one, or seen one used on a big bear!

Another thing, MY working with .338-06 and the imp. version since the "70's", they don't push bullets as fast as I keep seeing quoted! Will they if you push the pressure way up? Yes, but keeping the pressures where they should be, those bullets are no where near a .338 Win. mag. velocities..

DM
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Appreciate your experience.


As for the math:

The .338/225 gr. has an SD of 0.281 - which compares favorably to the .308/180 gr. (0.271), and the .277/150 gr. (0.279), which I do know a thing or two about.

But the .338/250 gr. (0.313) is better, as is the.308/200 gr. (0.301).

...as long as you can push them fast enough.

And 2500 fps is getting kinda... pokey... for a 300 yard round.

But it does it.

Energies are about the same as the 225 gr., but velocity drops below 2200 fps at a little after 150 yards, so at that point you are starting to just poke holes.

The 225 gr. will carry 2200 fps out to 250+ yards.

As for 3,000 lb-ft of energy? The 225 gr. carries it to 125 yds, the 250 gr. to 100.

So, for a dedicated Big Bear round inside 100 yards? I will wholeheartedly agree w/ you on the 250 gr.


As for velocities?

Alliant Powders came out w/ Reloder 17 in 2009, and it seems to be a wonder-powder for the 338-06.

A High-density powder w/ just the right burn rate for the heavier bullets, it allows 62 gr. of powder charge for the 225 gr. bullet (2650 fps) - which makes the 338-06 a whole nother animal.




GR
 
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Garandimal said:
Appreciate your experience.
As for the math:
The .338/225 gr. has an SD of 0.281 - which compares favorably to the .308/180 gr. (0.271), and the .277/150 gr. (0.279), which I do know a thing or two about.
GR
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The problem with doing your math is, it only compares the SD, not the frontal area and/or the construction of the bullet... --------------> apples and oranges!

For 250's, I much preferred the NP's, but I like the discontinued Speer 275's even better...

BTW, ANYONE shooting at big bears at long distance, is a moron! lol

DM
 
DM~ said:
I like the discontinued Speer 275's even better...

BTW, ANYONE shooting at big bears at long distance, is a moron! lol DM
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I've taken more game animals with Speer bullets than with any other brand and I have high respect for them. If I shot a big bear I would want to do it close enough so I could see all of the action up close and personal. I know that when the dance is opened to keep shooting until he is on the ground and still. I took a black bear with a 30-06 in Colorado at about 20 yards and after the shot he came tumbling down the hill and landed at my feet. My reflex was to shoot him a second time but he was already dead. I've taken deer at long range and when I walked up to the downed animal it was like someone else had fired the shot. Previously the only way I had seen the animal was through my binoculars or through the scope. I learned to really appreciate animals when I was bow hunting. Want to see an interesting video watch Fred Bear take a Kodiak brown bear with his recurve. When Fred released the arrow the camera man got so scared that he ran.
 
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DM~ said:
The problem with doing your math is, it only compares the SD, not the frontal area and/or the construction of the bullet... --------------> apples and oranges!

For 250's, I much preferred the NP's, but I like the discontinued Speer 275's even better...

BTW, ANYONE shooting at big bears at long distance, is a moron! lol

DM
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When comparing calibers, and different weights w/in a caliber, SD is very useful.

The SD of the .338/250 gr. NP will predict its penetration compared to the .338/225 gr. NP far more than the frontal area.

In fact, because it is slower, it may be less, which will add to the penetration.

Math will only get you so far.




GR
 
sage5907 said:
I've taken more game animals with Speer bullets than with any other brand and I have high respect for them. If I shot a big bear I would want to do it close enough so I could see all of the action up close and personal. I know that when the dance is opened to keep shooting until he is on the ground and still. I took a black bear with a 30-06 in Colorado at about 20 yards and after the shot he came tumbling down the hill and landed at my feet. My reflex was to shoot him a second time but he was already dead. I've taken deer at long range and when I walked up to the downed animal it was like someone else had fired the shot. Previously the only way I had seen the animal was through my binoculars or through the scope. I learned to really appreciate animals when I was bow hunting. Want to see an interesting video watch Fred Bear take a Kodiak brown bear with his recurve. When Fred released the arrow the camera man got so scared that he ran.
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Would still load a heavy NP/TSX/AF in case the shot was close.

Have shot a ton of Speer .277/150 gr. Hot-Cor.

Great general purpose and NP load development/tune-up round.




GR
 
Garandimal said:
Have shot a ton of Speer .277/150 gr. Hot-Cor. GR
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I have 200 rounds of Speer 200 grain HotCor that I will eventually use in my 338-06. Each bullet costs about 1/3 the cost of a Nosler AccuBond. The Speer bullets would handle any animal I would ever take, including elk and bison. In my testing so far the Nosler AccuBond is more accurate at 200 meters but I only tried the Speer with IMR 4064. When I get more time I will give Reloader 17 a try. The previous times I tried NP bullets I didn't find them to be particularly accurate but I have never loaded them with Reloader 17. Also, the Speer HotCor has a hard lead core.
 
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Garandimal said:
When comparing calibers, and different weights w/in a caliber, SD is very useful.
GR
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I'm not arguing with you on that point, BUT you can't use a smaller diameter bullet with an equal SD and expect it to perform the same as a completely different bullet that has a larger diameter and expect the same results because it has a similar SD. There are waaay too many variables for that to work...

In another life time, I designed/swaged/sold bullets, and tested thousands of bullets in a recovery box and on big game, including bigger big game like moose and big bears, to come to the conclusions I've posted here. Hopefully I'm helping someone here, instead of creating an argument...

A .338-06 is so much more cartridge than is needed for deer, almost ANY .338" bullet will work on deer...

BTW, here's a pict. of my .338-06,

standard.jpg

DM
 
DM~ said:
A .338-06 is so much more cartridge than is needed for deer, almost ANY .338" bullet will work on deer...View attachment 830146 DM
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I have always said that a 25-06 is a good deer rifle, a 270 Winchester is a better deer rifle, and a 30-06 is the best of all three. I have taken many deer with all three. There's no doubt that a 338-06 is more powerful than needed but with heavy bullets it does complete penetration and flies out the other side with a expanded bullet size exit hole. Smaller diameter bullets at super high velocity do far more damage to a deer than a slower moving 338 caliber bullet that doesn't open as quickly. I do some taxidermy work and I see deer that have been shot with small diameter fast moving nipple nosed bullets that expand on impact that do tremendous damage to the animal. Far more damage than a slower moving 338 caliber bullet. These plastic tipped quick opening bullets are not a friend of the taxidermist. When I first started deer hunting I was using fast small diameter bullets but ever few years I changed rifles to a larger diameter bullet.

I'm interested in your rifle. Tell us about the manufacturer, the weight, barrel length and scope. Thanks for the good information.
 
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The .338-06 strikes me as suffering from the doughnut hole problem - it's too big a diameter on too small a case to be a fully functional western big game round (even in the AI incarnation) and too small to be your choice if you think stopping dangerous game is on the menu. It falls in the awkward hole in the middle that has been the death of many big case medium bore.

If you don't care about recoil, 8mm is about the biggest caliber that retains full reach on a standard action length magnum (or short magnum) case. If you're worried about recoil, 7mm is generally better. If you need more rifle than that, you're better off sacrificing long range capability and moving up to a .375 at least.
 
Llama Bob said:
The .338-06 strikes me as suffering from the doughnut hole problem - too small to be your choice if you think stopping dangerous game is on the menu.
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Good thing I wasn't aware of that way back when I used it just for that purpose! Over the years, it's worked just fine for me as a stopper!

I've had no problems killing and stopping brown bears when needed, and I consider "those" to be "dangerous game"...

DM
 
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