Pop Pop Fizz Fizz, oh what garbage WWB is

Nice. I have had problems with WWB in 9 mm. I don't buy it anymore. For some reason, it has always been only the 9mm. No problems at all with .45 acp or .380 acp.

It's not just Winchester.

I use Reman ammunition from American Marksman, and recently bought 250rds of .300 blackout for $117. I have never had an issue, and the only issue was founding one out of the 250 with a bad primer before I fired at the range. I inspect all of ammo before firing it regardless where it comes from, because I trust no one! I have also started reloading, and I double check myself as well just to be on the safe side. I guess what I am trying to say is always inspect everything before stepping up to the firing lane! We did this when I was in the Army so old habits die hard, but it's all about safety!

I’ve noticed a steep decline in WWB 9mm. I generally shoot 9mm NATO from Winchester or MEN, without issue. I’ve also had good luck with Remington UMC bulk packs when I find it cheap.

Same for me with WWB in 9mm. I have shot through 3 200rnd bulk packs of WWB in .45 ACP recently with nothing to report.

I shoot a lot of the 165 gr .40 WWB
Never had a problem

ClickClickD'oh said:

I generally jokingly say that WWB is good training ammunition because it gives you plenty of opportunities to practice you failure drills.

Well, yesterday was no different. Out of a 200 round box, there were right near a dozen that didn't go bang their first time in the chamber.

Then there was the one that stole the show and went pop instead of bang. There was a bit of smoke curling out of the gun, so we kept it down range and counted it down in case it was a hang fire. This is what we found when we ejected it:

View attachment 830230

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One of the main reasons I reload! Been reloading since 1974 and touch wood, NO FTF or squibs. the added bonus is accuracy, All my reloads are custom tailored for accuracy in each of my firearms. .

The only Winchester ammo that's ever givin me problems is thier super-target/ universal shotgun ammo. When not shooting reloads, I shoot Federal. CCI for rimfire.

I’ve solved this problem in my own life by loading my own ammo.

Yup. Haven't bought factory centerfire ammo since 1988. But even back then the factories were making pretty reliable ammo - I took up handloading just to save money and shoot more rounds. Over the last ten years the QC of all of the American manufacturers has gone way down. They are pushing their production quotas to absurd levels. I would never trust any of it for self defense. My handloads ALWAYS function 100% because I carefully inspect every part of the process and I couldn't care less how long that takes.

I've never had any problems with Winchester ammo. I've had problems with some locally made ammo, from a low volume again, local ammo maker, kind of a mom and pop operation. That's because the local ammo maker doesn't have any quality control. All the big ammo producers, and the boutique ammo producers (like Underwood) have quality control. I assume Winchester is no different.

I have got to be the only guy ever that has basically never had an issue with WWB in various calibers across various platforms.

The only issue I ever had was with a HS2000 (XD series long before the XD) and those were known to have an issue with the extractor and WWB rims and a replacement of the extractor solved that right away.

Now Tula assmax.........well that’s another story for another time.

"How cheap can we make it and still have it go bang "most' of the time?"

Speedo66 said:

"How cheap can we make it and still have it go bang "most' of the time?"

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I think this is the case, especially with 9mm. While I reload, I do not reload 9mm simply because I don't own a 9mm firearm. Most of those folks I know, that reload and do own a 9mm firearm, don't reload for it because they claim it's not worth it because factory 9mm is so cheap and readily available in bulk. Many of the folks I know that own 9mm and do not reload, bought their 9mm simply because of the ammo being relatively inexpensive compared to the other popular calibers. When I go to the range at my local sportsman's club, the brass left on the ground is either .223 or 9mm. Most folks don't even consider it worth bending over to pick it up.

So yes, in order to compete with other cheap sources of 9mm, and to keep up with the demand for it, manufacturers probably do let quality slide.

buck460XVR said:

I think this is the case, especially with 9mm. While I reload, I do not reload 9mm simply because I don't own a 9mm firearm. Most of those folks I know, that reload and do own a 9mm firearm, don't reload for it because they claim it's not worth it because factory 9mm is so cheap and readily available in bulk. Many of the folks I know that own 9mm and do not reload, bought their 9mm simply because of the ammo being relatively inexpensive compared to the other popular calibers. When I go to the range at my local sportsman's club, the brass left on the ground is either .223 or 9mm. Most folks don't even consider it worth bending over to pick it up.

So yes, in order to compete with other cheap sources of 9mm, and to keep up with the demand for it, manufacturers probably do let quality slide.

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I can definitely reload 9mm cheaper than I can buy it.

Factory ammo is junk. Every time I hear guys talking about how you should NEVER use handloads in your carry gun I have to laugh. I have seen so many boxes of defective factory ammo over the years I would NEVER trust any of it for serious use. Ask ANY U.S. ammo maker if they guarantee their rounds to fire every time. None of them will. They couldn't care less if their ammo is defective - the only thing they care about is that it will sell. But they will happily replace bad product with fresh new bad product. Handmade ammo will ALWAYS be more reliable than factory ammo. ALWAYS. Back in the 80s a S&W sponsored shooter named Tom Campbell was only a couple of shots away from winning a National match title when his gun suddenly stopped working. Turned out a single round from a box of Winchester ammo had no flash hole under the primer. Full stop - game over. Imagine if you are attacked on a dark street with that round chambered in your gun. No thanks.

Can reloaders really beat the price on cheap range ammo? And that needs to include time. Everyone’s time is worth a different amount, and if you like reloading, obviously that’s a fun thing. It would be work for me, so I would figure that in.

Walmart has Remington-UMC 9mm for $50 after tax for 250 rounds.

Let’s say I shoot 500 rounds a month, what does it cost to load my own and what’s the time commitment?

AIM Surplus is currently selling Russian steel 9mm for $6.39 a box, buy a case and it's down to $6.19. Not worth my time to reload at those prices. They generally have some brand of brass cased 9mm for $8 and change, but the Russian will go bang just as often, maybe more often than some.

Depending on your press 500 rounds in 3 hours isn’t hard to do. I can load about 200 rounds per hour if I’m set up properly. Others can do much more.

Picking an efficient powder is important. Saving your brass is important. Buying bullets and primers on sale is important.

I can typically get cheap 9mm practice ammo for $9.00 a 50 round box roughly if I wait for a sale. I can very likely load my own for about the same per box depending on the deals I get. People who cast can do cheaper I hear.

But I mostly eliminate dud rounds because I’m taking care in handling and assembly a large manufacturer doesn’t.

The savings with 9mm comes out in the quality of the finished product. You need to load it for a much longer time than other cartridges to recover the cost of the dies, toolhead, and shell plate, or whatever is required in each press.

I enjoy loading so I donate my time. It’s recreation and relaxing for me.

The bottom line is if you shoot 9mm for a few decades at least, loading your own can pay off in money, quality, and consistency savings. So we can choose to load our own and avoid the problems that come with cheap factory practice ammo, or we can keep shooting it, thereby supporting a large scale ammo maker, and stop expecting cheap range ammo to be anything but what it is, cheap range ammo.

I’ve honestly never had any big problem with WWB ammo. Threads come up every few months discussing the poor quality of some cheap range ammo and honestly I don’t understand why. It’s cheap ammo, plain and simple.

stevekozak said:

I can definitely reload 9mm cheaper than I can buy it.

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Iffin you read my post instead of just quoting it, you'd see, nowhere did I say folks could buy it cheaper than reloading their own. I said folks didn't reload their own because it was not worth the effort to them, especially when it's just for cheap range fodder. Part of it comes down to what 460Shooter said........

460Shooter said:

Picking an efficient powder is important. Saving your brass is important. Buying bullets and primers on sale is important.


The savings with 9mm comes out in the quality of the finished product. You need to load it for a much longer time than other cartridges to recover the cost of the dies, toolhead, and shell plate, or whatever is required in each press.

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For the most part, folks I know that reload for 9mm, also reload for another caliber that is more likely to show a significant savings by reloading. They reload 9mm because they already are set up with most everything they need but the dies. I'd wager a guess that the majority of civilian 9mm users are not after the most accurate ammo out there. From what I've seen of many 9mm owners, is that they have a high capacity pistol, that they like to shoot a mag of ammo at a target very close to them, very quickly. The sound of 15 rounds going off in 10 seconds is more important than hitting the target with all 15 rounds. They also like to get that thrill as cheaply as possible and if a few rounds don't go off, or the ammo is dirty or not pin-point accurate, not a big deal. Locally I can buy 500 rounds of Wolf 9mm for $70. According to 460Shooter, that's 3 hours of time to reload that amount.....plus the cost of bullets, primers, powder and brass(not to mention the investment in equipment). To many folks, 3 hours of their time is worth more than the savings of what? 20 bucks maybe? Then there's the time spent picking up and cleaning that brass for next time.

460Shooter said:

Stop expecting cheap range ammo to be anything but what it is, cheap range ammo.

I’ve honestly never had any big problem with WWB ammo. Threads come up every few months discussing the poor quality of some cheap range ammo and honestly don’t understand why. It’s cheap ammo, plain and simple.

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....my point exactly.

Wisco said:

Can reloaders really beat the price on cheap range ammo? And that needs to include time. Everyone’s time is worth a different amount, and if you like reloading, obviously that’s a fun thing. It would be work for me, so I would figure that in.

Walmart has Remington-UMC 9mm for $50 after tax for 250 rounds.

Let’s say I shoot 500 rounds a month, what does it cost to load my own and what’s the time commitment?

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I cast my own bullets. On my Dillon 650 it takes about 1:15 to load 500 rounds. That includes the time spent loading primer tubes. My cost for 9mm is less than $6/100, .45 ACP for the same price.

I'm retired and broken. Can't chase the wife around the house, and even if I did there's nothing I could do if I caught her, damn prostate cancer. I average about two hours a day casting, coating, sizing bullets, and all the other tasks related to reloading. I've got close to a years worth, at 250 rounds a week, of ammo, both 9mm and .45 ACP, loaded up. I've also got all the .327 Federal, .38 Spl, .357 Mag, 10mm, and .44 Mag loaded up I would need in the course of a year.

I mainly go out to the reloading/casting bench to putter around and keep my sanity.

I just bought 500 rounds of WWB 124 grain 9mm at Bass Pro earlier in the week at $8.78 a box. I hope I got a good lot! I do reload for 9mm but I've been purchasing some ammo lately since the prices have been so low.

X2 on reload, over 35 yrs now

I found that the Federal 115gr rn brass for $10 for 50 at Walmart was within 1/4" of accuracy as my best match reloads.

I don't bother reloading 9mm anymore...