Force on Force; Defense from Vehicle

Without knowing the trainers, rest of the class, etc. this is still a range training environment, so has some artificiality to it. You can't shoot through car doors/windows, so there's cover where there wouldn't be. That coupled with lack of spall means people tend to sit behind cover and shoot when they wouldn't.

Also, the car is your best weapon, but is pretty much intrinsically dangerous. So much as you said how learning fundamentals is standing there shooting facing one way, you can't easily, safely, simulate a complete automotive threat in FOF, as running down the bad guys is not just possible but a valid tactic.

So, static simulation, you learn some of it, then some others, then tie it together.

They /hopefully/ also did moving vehicle stuff with empty guns and static targets, then maybe finished with moving vehicles and live fire or UTM/SIM on static targets again.

FOF shoot houses and car exercises and so on are nice even if tightly controlled for safety, to remind you the targets move, and shoot back.

I have done a fair amount of training in vehicles of all types for many different environments, both from the standpoint of driving and shooting. The training scenarios and techniques dependent on situation can be as complex as urban close quarters combat, and in many cases, even more difficult to train due to the equipment and logistics required to do it right. I have seen more than one window get accidentally shot out from the inside, holes in dashboards, hoods opened up, etc.

FL-NC said:

...I have seen more than one window get accidentally shot out from the inside, holes in dashboards, hoods opened up, etc.

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I for one have never shot a long groove in a trunk lid while braced across it, because I forgot sight offset. And definitely not twice after the first shot failed to hit.

shoobe01 said:

I for one have never shot a long groove in a trunk lid while braced across it, because I forgot sight offset. And definitely not twice after the first shot failed to hit.

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You should see the mess when a SAW burst of green tip from less than 1 meter away goes into those sling points that stick out of the hood on a humvee.

labnoti said:

While "stand and deliver" is probably the right method to work on fundamentals, defensive handgun skills shouldn't neglect movement and one of the transitional spaces in which training is meaningful is in and around vehicles. Whether the threat is carjacking, road rage, armed robbery, or a vehicle ambush, being able to draw, move and put shots on target in and around vehicles is a salient skill. Like all self-defense, protective skills around cars isn't limited to weapons-handling. One of the best tools we have is the vehicle itself which can be both a powerful weapon and a fast means of escape. I don't want to ignore vehicle-handling skills, but I'm focusing on handguns because that's the relevant forum topic here.

There are a few video lectures/demos on drawing and getting a handgun on target when seated in a vehicle. I think I saw one with Clint Smith and I know Gunsite and other reputable academies do vehicle classes. But what I want to highlight is what I see in force on force training.

In this video, the first 10 minutes are lecture. At about 10:00 they start FOF with simunitions. The "criminals" don't do a very good job because they broadcast their intent and weapons too soon and of course the defenders are anticipating. It's not a use-of-force simulation which is probably better done in a video simulator. Instead it's more like a FOF shootout around cars and some of the shots look pretty wild. Is this "spray and pray?"



Here's another FOF event. The lecture part is chopped up in the edit, but it looks like the exercise starts from driver's seats following a head-on vehicle collision. Shooters try to get hits on their opponent. In the beginning of the video, the trainer appears to be reviewing (maybe the editor cut the review up front) and he describes two outcomes: "just sending shots" and "Tom and Jerry". A third outcome he describes is the "OK Corral" or "Blaze of Glory." You've probably done that at least once if you were ever in a dart gun fight.



Ideas on how to do it better? Are these outcomes a result of having a lot of ammo and little concern about "sending shots" or "spray and pray" because they're just wax? How does that translate to live fire? Should we be sure to have plenty of 18 round magazines, and if we do will we use the same tactics?

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As far as I am concerned,this could be a real moment to learn FoF = IF there was many training sessions .

AND some actually did involve NO USE OF FORCE,in fact you get a 'fail' if you draw or fire doing a NO SHOOT scenario.

Then you are adding reality and the real possibility that you will not use or need force.

Some of the best up to date vehicle CQB training is with William Petty of Centrifuge Training.

Not only covers fighting around vehicles, but ballistics as well.

Check out some of his videos.

labnoti said:

One of the best tools we have is the vehicle itself which can be both a powerful weapon and a fast means of escape. I don't want to ignore vehicle-handling skills, but I'm focusing on handguns because that's the relevant forum topic here.[/MEDIA]

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Being a gun forum, focus on the weapons makes sense, but for people living normal, everyday lives in a civilized country, deploying a firearm in a vehicle (or against one) should be secondary or even tertiary in this context.

First should be situational awareness, same as always. If you're buried in your phone at a traffic signal or jammin' to a tune and oblivious to people approaching your vehicle, you're already in trouble. Moreso if you have windows down and/or doors unlocked. Of course, where you're at weighs heavily in how alert and protected you should be. In my rural home town, I don't take the same precautions I do in a crime ridden urban area.

Second consideration should be not just your driving skills, but the logistics of the vehicles involved. Obviously this applies more to a person or people trying to force you to stop, force you off the road, box you in. If you're in an econobox and they have SUVs, your options are not the same as an individual driving a powerful full sized truck who someone is trying to engage with a sedan. Different tactics for evading or escaping based on both driver skill & vehicle, as well as the skills & vehicle(s) of the aggressor(s).

Assuming that situational awareness was lacking or made no difference, and that the bad guy has gained entry to your vehicle, now comes the ability to defend in the confines of a passenger compartment, which is no easy task. For one, don't assume they'll come at you from the driver side or hop into the front passenger seat; I'm no expert, but my understanding is that a fair number or carjacking & robberies occur with the perpetrator in the back seat of the vehicle. It's gonna be a lot tougher to gain control of a weapon behind you when you're belted into the front seat. I've seen a lot of FoF videos that seem to skip over this, but unless you drive a 2 door vehicle, it's a likely scenario. Planning/training to mitigate that threat isn't easy, and is highly dependent on your physiology and the passenger compartment layout. If you're flexible, the seat backs slimmer & lower, and the rear seat area is small, you have a better chance than someone driving a large sedan with a roomy back seat. In my 1965 Newport with it's low bench front seat, I could pretty easily turn and deliver a hard blow to someone behind me. In my Durango or Ram pickup? not so much, have difficulty even reaching back far enough for a piece of trash one of the kids is trying to pass forward.

The last part of the above paragraph brings forth another consideration; do you have kids riding in the car with you? I can imagine no worse scenario than a violent actor gaining access to my vehicle and taking my child hostage right behind me. That would completely eliminate tactics like discreetly drawing a handgun and putting a round through the seat back which may otherwise work.

As for vehicles & bullets, that's a whole other can of worms, but there is an important paradox there: vehicles are very poor cover, and bullets have a really hard time getting through them. What that means is that there are many areas of an automobile that are easily penetrated even by handgun rounds, but it's also very difficult to score hits on a target inside of or behind a car. We've had a number of junkers that we were able to test a wide variety of rounds on, and the results are always interesting. Where a 9mm round will make it through a door with plenty of energy to spare having hit only thin sheet metal and a plastic interior trim panel, a .308 FMJ bullet that impacts 2" away from where the pistol bullet got through is stopped by internal structure or components, such as a window motor or brace. Bottom line, if you find yourself in a firefight invovling vehicles, seek better cover and don't count on being able to hit the occupant or disable their vehicle if you're using anything short of an M240.

Wichaka said:

Some of the best up to date vehicle CQB training is with William Petty of Centrifuge Training.

Not only covers fighting around vehicles, but ballistics as well.

Check out some of his videos.

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If you didn't, I was going to throw his name out there.

Aaron Cowan with Sage Dynamics is also a well known instructor and if you spend any rice reading his articles and watching his material it's easy to see his methods and research are solid

Aaron is another to research on the subject. Also Petty's Low Light class...a lot of reality packed in this class.

I encourage all to check the above trainers for both subjects, many changes to the way we do things, even from just a few years ago is getting outdated.

Just me but if you are in a functioning vehicle your best defense is probably to get the heck out if you can.

I wouldn't want to be trapped in a vehicle and fight from there, too many things to limit mobility. As mentioned above, check the best you can before moving into a new environment...in this case going from outside to inside your vehicle.