New to BP, curious to Lack of Recoil

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crick0234

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hi guys! I'm new to BP pistols. been lurking these forums for a while, reading and trying to learn more about BP shooting.

Currently shooting:

Pietta 1851 .36 cal w/ slixshot nipples
using about 15 grains of pyrodex
shooting with hornady .36 (.375) balls

After about 24 shots, i get a weird instance where the cap ignites, but there's a lack of recoil. I of course keep it aimed out to the range for a while before checking for issues.

I noticed that the cylinder is empty. Thought quite possibly i forgot to load that cylinder. Was no chainfire i noticed. checked the barrel, which is cleared.

Second time at the range, same thing... after 24 shots... i'm on my last bullet and cap goes off, no recoil. I check and notice the bullet didnt fire. It's still in teh cylinder. Noticed the nipple was clogged up good, so I used a nipple pick to clear out the clog, shove another cap on, and fired. This time, cap goes off, but also no recoil, no huge billow of smoke. When i check for the bullet, it's gone. When i check the target, there's a bullet in the target (shooting only 7 yards).

I usually dont shoot after this sorta misfire; i take the gun home and do a full disassembly and cleaning.

I dont know what is happening and am curious if others experienced this. I do notice after 4 cylinders, there's a lotta residue causing the hammer to be a little sticky.

thanks for all the help!
 
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What kind of Pyrodex are you loading, P or RS?
P should burn cleaner without producing as much residue.
It's also more energetic.

Pyrodex operates best when compressed, usually the more the better.
Perhaps you need more powder compression either by loading more powder, or by placing a wad or card or filler over the powder,
or by making sure that the ball is being seated all of the way to the bottom of the chamber.

And try to clean your nipples with a pick as part of your loading routine.

My personal impression is that unless you have a brass frame revolver, your loads are rather conservative.
Some here have said that their most accurate load with a steel frame 1851 .36 Colt is 20 grains of powder.
Colt's original load was 1 dram or 27.3 grains of 3F over 125 years ago.
The max. load is about 29 grains.
More powder may give you snappier loads, better compression and more certain ignition.
That is if you have a steel frame 1851.

If none of this agrees with you then perhaps try a different powder, preferably 3F.
 
Last edited:
thanks for the feedback! i do have a steel frame 1851. I'm currently using Pyrodex P. Can't find Goex BP anywhere around here :(

I'll up the load to 18 or 20 grains. I was going off of some charts that came with the Navy and went by those initial numbers, even tho i've been hearing eveyrone online using higherloads (figured i start out small first).

sorry, forgot to mention, I do use those wonder wads from cabelas. With 15 gr, i was never sure if the ball was seated all the way down as the rod is pressed all the way. sounds like there's a lot of compression lost if the ball isnt seated all the way?

Gonna try upping the grains. Appreciate the response, arcticap!
 
crick0234 said:
hi guys! I'm new to BP pistols. been lurking these forums for a while, reading and trying to learn more about BP shooting.

Currently shooting:

Pietta 1851 .36 cal w/ slixshot nipples
using about 15 grains of pyrodex
shooting with hodgson .36 (.375) balls

After about 24 shots, i get a weird instance where the cap ignites, but there's a lack of recoil. I of course keep it aimed out to the range for a while before checking for issues.

I noticed that the cylinder is empty. Thought quite possibly i forgot to load that cylinder. Was no chainfire i noticed. checked the barrel, which is cleared.

Second time at the range, same thing... after 24 shots... i'm on my last bullet and cap goes off, no recoil. I check and notice the bullet didnt fire. It's still in teh cylinder. Noticed the nipple was clogged up good, so I used a nipple pick to clear out the clog, shove another cap on, and fired. This time, cap goes off, but also no recoil, no huge billow of smoke. When i check for the bullet, it's gone. When i check the target, there's a bullet in the target (shooting only 7 yards).

I usually dont shoot after this sorta misfire; i take the gun home and do a full disassembly and cleaning.

I dont know what is happening and am curious if others experienced this. I do notice after 4 cylinders, there's a lotta residue causing the hammer to be a little sticky.

thanks for all the help!
Click to expand...
Pyrodex if not compressed will shoot low power, could be creeping forward a bit, unusual with a wad, and very unusual with just the last shot.
 
Have one .36 that.375s almost can be pushed in with a finger.. I use .380s in everything tighter fit and longer flat area on the loaded ball makes it less likely to work loose from recoil.
 
I find black powder really doesn't have that much recoil to it.

I have been using 2 powder flasks. 1 has a 20gr spout and the other has a 30gr spout. I find if leave out the felt wad, 30gr of FFFg black powder will fill my Pietta 36 cal 1851 Navy's chamber to the rim. I can then press a .375 or .380 ball on top of that charge. Recoil is still very light.

I bought a 3rd powder flask that I plan to cut down to 25gr for use with the 1851 Navy.
 
44 Dave said:
Have one .36 that.375s almost can be pushed in with a finger.. I use .380s in everything tighter fit and longer flat area on the loaded ball makes it less likely to work loose from recoil.
Click to expand...

I'm shooting a pietta that from what i read, .375's would work, but i do see the point of people talking about possible creep from recoil. some of the rings are very thin when i ram one. I'll give the .38's a try - would they be much harder to ram? i'm assuming it'll be fine on the ram rod.

Right now i'm seeing 'track of the wolf' as one source for .38 round balls, so i may order from there. Thanks for the suggestion!

drobs said:
I find black powder really doesn't have that much recoil to it.

I have been using 2 powder flasks. 1 has a 20gr spout and the other has a 30gr spout. I find if leave out the felt wad, 30gr of FFFg black powder will fill my Pietta 36 cal 1851 Navy's chamber to the rim. I can then press a .375 or .380 ball on top of that charge. Recoil is still very light.

I bought a 3rd powder flask that I plan to cut down to 25gr for use with the 1851 Navy.
Click to expand...

that's good to know! thank you! going to give 20gn with a felt wad a try.

From what everyone has been saying and the feedback i'm getting, i'm thinking it could be ball creep from the recoil on loosely fitted round balls. The "no recoil" occurring on the 5th/6th shot. hoping a 38 would solve that.

thanks everyone! learning so much!
 
crick0234 said:
thanks for the feedback! i do have a steel frame 1851. I'm currently using Pyrodex P. Can't find Goex BP anywhere around here :(

I'll up the load to 18 or 20 grains. I was going off of some charts that came with the Navy and went by those initial numbers, even tho i've been hearing eveyrone online using higherloads (figured i start out small first).

sorry, forgot to mention, I do use those wonder wads from cabelas. With 15 gr, i was never sure if the ball was seated all the way down as the rod is pressed all the way. sounds like there's a lot of compression lost if the ball isnt seated all the way?

Gonna try upping the grains. Appreciate the response, arcticap!
Click to expand...

You can always order some powder from an online source. I used to shoot nothing but 3F Triple 7. Bought it from BassPro that was a 30 min drive away. Refused to pay shipping and HazMat fees. But then, during the period of time when shooting supplies became scarce, I’d show up and they didn’t have my powder. This went on for months. So I looked at Grafs and found my powder was cheaper and if I bought 3 lbs at a time it offset the shipping and HazMat. Now I use them exclusively as I don’t have to waste my time and gas hoping I’ll return home with my needs met.

I now mostly buy Olde Eynsford by Goex. Cheaper than T7 but has a little more velocity. I intend to try Swiss and see if I see a difference in accuracy as several others claim.
 
crick0234 said:
I'm shooting a pietta that from what i read, .375's would work, but i do see the point of people talking about possible creep from recoil. some of the rings are very thin when i ram one. I'll give the .38's a try - would they be much harder to ram? i'm assuming it'll be fine on the ram rod.

Right now i'm seeing 'track of the wolf' as one source for .38 round balls, so i may order from there. Thanks for the suggestion!



that's good to know! thank you! going to give 20gn with a felt wad a try.

From what everyone has been saying and the feedback i'm getting, i'm thinking it could be ball creep from the recoil on loosely fitted round balls. The "no recoil" occurring on the 5th/6th shot. hoping a 38 would solve that.

thanks everyone! learning so much!
Click to expand...

Here's the best deal on 36 cal ball short of casting it yourself. Shave's a nice lead ring.
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Super-Buck-Lead-0000-8-lb_jar-380/productinfo/SBK40/
 
drobs said:
Here's the best deal on 36 cal ball short of casting it yourself. Shave's a nice lead ring.
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Super-Buck-Lead-0000-8-lb_jar-380/productinfo/SBK40/
Click to expand...

4-0 buckshot works fine in a .36 caliber gun, as long as you are charging the chambers in a separate press outside the gun. Buckshot is harder than pure lead and is more difficult to seat than a pure lead ball. I bent a ramming lever the first time I tried it. Pure lead .380 balls seat easily and can be used without removing the cylinder.

Otherwise I agree with drobs, Ballistic Products buckshot is a good way to go.
 
I'm curious how you measure your powder. Are you using a flask? A dipper? A measure? My thought was that maybe, you just didn't get the same charge in that one chamber. I know sometimes, depending on the humidity, the powder may not flow out of the flask as normal, and you could short charge a chamber. You're using a very reduced charge anyway, and if it was reduced even further from the powder being slightly caked and not throwing enough, you could get a pipsqueak round like you describe.

I'd up the charge a bit and double check each load to make sure enough came out.
 
One more thing to check. I have noticed that the cylinder chambers in most black powder revolvers tend towards having non-uniform diameters. Measure the diameter of your 6 chambers and see if they are close to being the same. I have measured my Pietta, Euroarms, and Ruger Old Army chamber diameters and have found quite a bit of variance. One Old Army has an over-sized chamber that I don't bother to reload. It has become a "5-shooter".
 
ShotgunDave said:
I'm curious how you measure your powder. Are you using a flask? A dipper? A measure? My thought was that maybe, you just didn't get the same charge in that one chamber. I know sometimes, depending on the humidity, the powder may not flow out of the flask as normal, and you could short charge a chamber. You're using a very reduced charge anyway, and if it was reduced even further from the powder being slightly caked and not throwing enough, you could get a pipsqueak round like you describe.

I'd up the charge a bit and double check each load to make sure enough came out.
Click to expand...

i'm measuring from a pedersoli powderflask with a 15gn spout that i transfer over to a pedersoli powder measure with a swivel funnel on it, liek the one pictured below, but cuz the flask consistently threw 15 gn charges, i decided to set the measure at 20gn so that none of the wind would blow off the powder from the top while filling. that's a good observation shotgundave, didnt think about potential caking or inconsistent charges from it. i did notice some of the powder caking on the tip of the spout because my fingers were greasy from wads/borebutter.

s7_210253_imageset_02.jpg

Patocazador said:
One more thing to check. I have noticed that the cylinder chambers in most black powder revolvers tend towards having non-uniform diameters. Measure the diameter of your 6 chambers and see if they are close to being the same. I have measured my Pietta, Euroarms, and Ruger Old Army chamber diameters and have found quite a bit of variance. One Old Army has an over-sized chamber that I don't bother to reload. It has become a "5-shooter".
Click to expand...

i'll give it a check with my caliper tonight! will report back if there's noticeable differences.

Thanks for the heads up on the buck shot! I ended up ordering soft lead balls from TOW.

cant thank everyone enuff. i was expecting like... no FB for a few days and lo'behold, lotta info here at thr! you guys rock!
 
Did all the balls ring the same?
Did you visually insure same powder load in all chambers?
In my experience a pure soft lead ball size that provides at least a full ring of about 0.030-0.040 works best.
Should you find one chamber that is bigger and since you are using .375, provided .380 loads good in the bigger chamber, I would ream the other five to match or get new cylinder.
 
Going back to the ball not being there..... if you only heard the cap go off and no big cloud of smoke and the ball was gone then it was the cap pressure that blew out the ball and powder without igniting it for some reason. Don't underestimate the pressure from just the cap. I can't say that I've seen the ball shoot out from just a cap but more than a few times I've seen folks with cartridge "primer only" misfires where the bullet left the gun and struck the closer in target strongly enough to make it ring or still punch a clean hole in the paper.

So what I'd be looking to check is why the caps are not igniting the powder.

If it's damp I found that the fouling likes to make up a clay like goop that loves to block flash holes. So that's something to check each time.

The fouling does really gum things up. A drop of Ballistol oil at the arbor to cylinder joint before you start re-loading so it spins around and soaks in can soften the fouling. Or what I use is Canola cooking oil. It turns the sticky fouling into a black oily like mess. But the cylinder spins free all day with a drop each loading at the same joint.
 
Really don't think just cap pressure will move a ball out of cylinder and out barrel. Squib typically causes projectile to stick in the barrel but thats modern primers.
 
When loading, do all of the chambers shave the same amount of lead in a complete ring or does the odd chamber shave less or a broken ring?
If the latter, the pressure may be less in the odd chamber.
 
BCRider said:
Going back to the ball not being there..... if you only heard the cap go off and no big cloud of smoke and the ball was gone then it was the cap pressure that blew out the ball and powder without igniting it for some reason. Don't underestimate the pressure from just the cap. I can't say that I've seen the ball shoot out from just a cap but more than a few times I've seen folks with cartridge "primer only" misfires where the bullet left the gun and struck the closer in target strongly enough to make it ring or still punch a clean hole in the paper.

So what I'd be looking to check is why the caps are not igniting the powder.

If it's damp I found that the fouling likes to make up a clay like goop that loves to block flash holes. So that's something to check each time.

The fouling does really gum things up. A drop of Ballistol oil at the arbor to cylinder joint before you start re-loading so it spins around and soaks in can soften the fouling. Or what I use is Canola cooking oil. It turns the sticky fouling into a black oily like mess. But the cylinder spins free all day with a drop each loading at the same joint.
Click to expand...

That is exactly what happened. i heard the cap go off, no cloud of smoke at all, no recoil. Ball went missing. i check the target, and ball went thru the target. Very sure of this cuz paper's clean and got 6 bullet holes in it, shot at 7 yards (i can even see where the wads hit the paper hahaha). Because this usually occurs after 3-4 cylinders, i'm wondering if the lubricated wads are leaving wet/damp fouling, and some of that ends up just clogging the nipple? I did however tried to clear the nipple with a nipple pick, but again, the result was just lack of recoil, no puff of smoke, but ball gone. dont *think* it's a nipple issue - using slixshots?

after 3-4 cylinders, i'd probalby just break it down and clean out the cylinders quickly with a brush and some patches

Ephraim Kibbey said:
When loading, do all of the chambers shave the same amount of lead in a complete ring or does the odd chamber shave less or a broken ring?
If the latter, the pressure may be less in the odd chamber.
Click to expand...

i do get an odd one, not too often. almost complete but kinda crescent shape.

just got .380 balls in the mail, just got some additional 21 grain flask tubes for my powderflask. just got a spare cylinder to play with.

just gotta wait for the rain to stop and go out and test.

thanks for the FB everyone!
 
finally got out to the range today, and the gun shoots great!

Loaded .380 sized balls with 21 grains of blackpowder. After every cylinder, i go thru a quick cleandown of each cylinder (i run a q-tip down it to clean out the fouling/residue, and cleared the holes with a nipple pick). I shot about 36 rounds without any issues. In fact, it gummed up a lot less than before; i got none of that hammer sticking. way less fouling/residue during full breakdown and cleaning too.

The .380 balls made some good solid rings and the added amount of grains helped fill the cylinder better than before. I think i'm gonna be sticking with the .380 balls and 21 grains of powder from now on!

thanks everyone for the help!

B1TrYgXh.jpg
 
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