Lever gun guidance

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The .45 Colt was originally a revolver cartridge... the Colt's Model P, aka the model of 1873 or "Peacemaker", used a barrel-mounted rod ejector that had nothing to do with the rim.

Somebody here said there was little or no difference in power between .45 Colt and .44-40, which IIRC was developed for the Winchester '73 and applied to the Peacemaker.

Yeeeeup. That's what I was saying. In a revolver you don't need a rim for anything other than to hold the cartridge in the chamber when you're stuffing the gun in your holster. Colt had no reason to design it with a rim big or strong enough for rifle extraction --- in fact, as has been pointed out, if they wanted to guard their patent as firmly as stated elsewhere, maybe they were motivated to keep the rim as minimalist as possible......maybe. That's only hypothesis, not history.
 
Yeeeeup. That's what I was saying. In a revolver you don't need a rim for anything other than to hold the cartridge in the chamber when you're stuffing the gun in your holster. Colt had no reason to design it with a rim big or strong enough for rifle extraction --- in fact, as has been pointed out, if they wanted to guard their patent as firmly as stated elsewhere, maybe they were motivated to keep the rim as minimalist as possible......maybe. That's only hypothesis, not history.

The first .45 Colt cartridge cases were copper and manufactured in a similar manner to the rim-fire cases of the day. The Benet priming was internal and contained in a little flat metal plate or disc that was crimped in place when the rim was formed. The firing pin indented the soft cartridge case in the center and crushed the priming compound against the plate or disc. Since the cartridge did not have to work with an extractor, and the rim contained no priming, perhaps it was cheaper to just form the minimal "crimped" rim. Subsequent externally Boxer primed .45 Colt cases just copied the dimensions of the original cartridge. The rear of the 1873 cylinder didn't allow much room to enlarge the rims much anyway, although the rim diameter was increased slightly to function better with the star extractor of the New Service double action later on.
 
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Regarding points made in post #49, I can't think of any reason to purposely hotrod the .45 Colt. The 255gr LFP "cowboy loads" are still a stopper provided we're not talking about cat sneeze competition loads. Elmer Keith blew up at least one Peacemaker trying to "soup up" a .45 using a .458-.459" bullet... too big and up to twice as heavy. If a more powerful load, with the proper .454" bullet, is desired, that's what Ruger's Blackhawk/Vaquero is for. Even then, know when to say when.
 
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Regarding points made in post #49, I can't think of any reason to purposely hotrod the .45 Colt. The 255gr LFP "cowboy loads" are still a stopper provided we're not talking about cat sneeze competition loads. Elmer Keith blew up at least one Peacemaker trying to "soup up" a .45 using a .458-.459" bullet... too big and up to twice as heavy. If a more powerful load, with the proper .454" bullet, is desired, that's what Ruger's Blackhawk/Vaquero is for. Even then, know when to say when.

In a revolver you are perfectly correct. Only Ruger Blackhawks, Redhawks, and similar heavy frame revolvers should be used for magnum loads with the .45 Colt. No Italian sixguns, Colt SAA originals, or small frame New Vaqueros, or the like should be used with above SAAMI loads. They aren't designed to take it.

With toggle-link Italian replica lever guns, or Burgess replicas, or any replica of a black powder era rifle, only factory pressure (or less) .45 Colt cartridges can be used safely. (Or .44 Special or .44-40 or .38-40 - You get the idea) They are weak actions.

However, modern actions, made with modern steels, are strong actions which are rated to fire the .44 magnum, and ARE chambered for the ,44 magnum. SAAMI maximum pressure for .44 magnum is 36,000 PSI (40,000 CUP). The Rossi 1892 and other 1892 replicas, 1894 Marlin, 1894 Winchester, 336 Marlin, and Henry Big Boy are designed to handle these pressures.

When .45 Colt is used in these modern rifles, it is perfectly safe to hand-load the cartridge to .44 magnum velocities with equivalent weight bullets. The modern day .45 Colt cartridge case is very strong, has a solid head which is just as thick as .44 magnum, and has similar neck thickness. It ain't your granddaddy's .45 Colt case and it will handle the pressures equally well, as will the modern rifles.
Also, because the .45 Colt case is larger in diameter, it has more air space inside, and hand loads which are equal in velocity to .44 magnum will generate lower chamber pressures. Around 25,000 PSI. This means that these .45 Colt ++P hand loads actually place less stress on the rifle than does .44 magnum, as long as you stick to the same weight bullets and the same velocities.

So, if you can load a 240 grain JHP bullet to 1600 FPS and 37,700 CUP in your 20" barrel .44 magnum modern lever action rifle, you can safely load a 250 grain JHP bullet to 1600 FPS in your 20'' barrel modern lever action .45 Colt rifle. However, I would stop there. You can't turn your modern lever action .45 Colt rifle into a .45-70, so don't try.

As to WHY you would want to "hot rod" the .45 Colt cartridge in a modern lever action rifle, it's because you might want a .44 magnum carbine (or the equivalent) for hunting, and you might want a .45 Colt carbine just for plinking or target shooting at 1000FPS with factory equivalent loads.
But, maybe you can only afford, or you only want one carbine.
You could just buy a .44 magnum carbine and shoot .44 Special in it, but it doesn't work very well. Most carbines have a 1:28 twist or a 1:38 twist, like their .44-40 ancestors, and only stabilize 205 grain bullets or less at .44-40 velocities well. (1250 FPS)
They work great with 240 grain bullets at 1600 FPS, but not at 1000 FPS.
The .45 Colt rifles usually have a 1:16 inch twist and will stabilize heavy bullets at 1000 FPS or 1600 FPS equally well.
If you pair your modern .45 Colt carbine with a .45 Colt Redhawk or Blackhawk revolver, it will also safely handle ++P loads, and of course, the factory loads.
 
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On post #54, my last comment wasn't even addressing rifles of different brands and produced in different time frames. In the case of the more modern and stronger built leverguns... Winchester and Marlin, particularly... I agree that they'll handle .44 Magnum level pressures, but I've seen recoil get pretty bad too. Now, if you're dealing with Grizzlies or something... you might be comforted by more power in a levergun, but I'm not dealing with big bears in my locale.
 
On post #54, my last comment wasn't even addressing rifles of different brands and produced in different time frames. In the case of the more modern and stronger built leverguns... Winchester and Marlin, particularly... I agree that they'll handle .44 Magnum level pressures, but I've seen recoil get pretty bad too. Now, if you're dealing with Grizzlies or something... you might be comforted by more power in a levergun, but I'm not dealing with big bears in my locale.

In any event, the experts tell tells us you will require magnum rounds using monolithic solids for anything larger than deer...:scrutiny:
 
On post #54, my last comment wasn't even addressing rifles of different brands and produced in different time frames. In the case of the more modern and stronger built leverguns... Winchester and Marlin, particularly... I agree that they'll handle .44 Magnum level pressures, but I've seen recoil get pretty bad too. Now, if you're dealing with Grizzlies or something... you might be comforted by more power in a levergun, but I'm not dealing with big bears in my locale.

The recoil with a 240 or 250 grain bullet at 1600 FPS in a given carbine will be the same, regardless of whether it is a factory .44 magnum load or the equivalent .45 Colt ++P load. Why wouldn't it be? The same mass at the same velocity. I have shot both out of Marlin 20" Cowboys. No difference. And the recoil isn't bad at all with either the flat plastic butt-plate or the thin rubber recoil pad that 1894 Marlin carbines use. Curved steel carbine butt-plates on a Rossi might be less pleasant.

A carbine firing factory .44 Magnum loads (240 grain @ 1600 FPS) has always been considered by experts be about equal to the .30-30 WCF in both power and application, ever since the 1894 Marlin was reintroduced some 48 years ago. So a .45 Colt ++P load in a carbine (250 grain @ 1600 FPS) would also be equivalent to a .30-30.

I don't know about you but I won't be hunting grizzlies with a .30-30 WCF. It's woefully under-powered for that, as practically everyone knows.
So, I won't be hunting grizzly bears with a .44 magnum or a carbine using .45 Colt ++P loads either, since they are also woefully under-powered for that application as well.

For grizzly hunting I would want a much more powerful rifle. Recoil be damned.
 
In any event, the experts tell tells us you will require magnum rounds using monolithic solids for anything larger than deer...:scrutiny:

I confess that I had no idea what a monolithic solid bullet was, so I Googled it. By definition it refers to a bullet made from solid copper or a single hard alloy. What African hunters call "solids". But, we are not shooting elephants LOL.

You can drop a deer using a factory .45 Colt round, using a plain base lead bullet @ around 1100 FPS from a 20" carbine with no problem.
However, you had better stay within brush hunting distances and place your shot well into the heart/lung area, or you may be tracking a wounded deer for a while.

Most hunters prefer to use a more powerful rifle such as the .44 magnum or the .30-30 WCF to assure a humane kill, even with a less than perfect bullet strike on the animal. This would also include a .45 Colt ++P hand load, which duplicates the factory .44 magnum load in strong and modern lever action carbines. (250 grain JHP @ 1600 FPS / 20" barrel)

I certainly would NOT use a factory .45 Colt round in a carbine on an elk or a moose, with any type of bullet.

Most hunters would not use a .30-30 WCF or a .44 magnum carbine or .45 Colt ++P carbine load either. You could though, with a carefully placed shot at brush ranges, if you had to. I would think twice about an Alaskan bull moose though. LOL
 
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The recoil with a 240 or 250 grain bullet at 1600 FPS in a given carbine will be the same, regardless of whether it is a factory .44 magnum load or the equivalent .45 Colt ++P load. Why wouldn't it be? The same mass at the same velocity. I have shot both out of Marlin 20" Cowboys. No difference. And the recoil isn't bad at all with either the flat plastic butt-plate or the thin rubber recoil pad that 1894 Marlin carbines use. Curved steel carbine butt-plates on a Rossi might be less pleasant.

A carbine firing factory .44 Magnum loads (240 grain @ 1600 FPS) has always been considered by experts be about equal to the .30-30 WCF in both power and application, ever since the 1894 Marlin was reintroduced some 48 years ago. So a .45 Colt ++P load in a carbine (250 grain @ 1600 FPS) would also be equivalent to a .30-30.

I don't know about you but I won't be hunting grizzlies with a .30-30 WCF. It's woefully under-powered for that, as practically everyone knows.
So, I won't be hunting grizzly bears with a .44 magnum or a carbine using .45 Colt ++P loads either, since they are also woefully under-powered for that application as well.

For grizzly hunting I would want a much more powerful rifle. Recoil be damned.

My first rifle was a Winchester 1894AE in .30-30. A few years later I obtained a Browning 1892 in .44 magnum. I was surprised at the recoil impulse from it; to this day I honestly couldn't say which was stronger, the .30-30 or the .44 magnum.
I still have both carbines to this day.
 
My first rifle was a Winchester 1894AE in .30-30. A few years later I obtained a Browning 1892 in .44 magnum. I was surprised at the recoil impulse from it; to this day I honestly couldn't say which was stronger, the .30-30 or the .44 magnum.
I still have both carbines to this day.

The B92 has the heavier recoil impulse, thanks to it's curved carbine steel butt plate. I owned one and I know what you mean.
But, I suspect that an old 1920s Winchester 94 in .30-30 with the same butt plate would also bite your shoulder pretty hard.
It's probably why the flat shotgun style butt plate on Winchester and Marlin .30-30 carbines has been so popular for so long.
I wish that I still had that B92.
 
I have been eye balling a Winny 94 in .32 special. It was the first rifle (sold) that I even owned back in the early 70's.

I owned a 1959 Winchester 94 carbine in .32 Special. It was quite accurate. I once accidentally loaded a .30-30 cartridge into the magazine (They look alike) and fired it. It sounded and felt odd, so I examined the case, and realized my error. No harm done. It just rattled down the bore.
I just tossed it into the brass pile for reloading as a .32 Special since it was now fire-formed. :D
 
seems my model choices would be 1866, 1873, 1892, and 1894. Among those, any reason apart from personal preference to pick one over another, or eliminate one? For my intended uses.

Howdy

Regarding the Model 1894, Winchester made one and Marlin made one. The Winchester Model 1894 is a longer action, designed around rifle cartridges such as the 30-30. Although this action has been chambered for 45 Colt, that rifle and that cartridge are not a great match. However the Marlin Model 1894 is designed for relatively short 'pistol' cartridges, such as 45 Colt.

I've read (including here) that the 1866 has a weaker action, and 1892 (?) the strongest action, of the classic levers. Is that correct, and would that be a consideration for my uses? Are standard pressure loads sufficient for silhouette, and why would I want/need to leave myself the option of higher pressure loads? I don't want to carelessly limit my options for things I might want to do. Should I want to some day put the rifle into a home defense role, do I need to consider pressure requirements for modern expanding ammo?

Yes. The Winchester Model 1866 and the Winchester Model 1873 both have what is called a Toggle Link action. So did the earlier 1860 Henry. The action depended on the folding action of the toggle links to hold the bolt in battery, there were no locking lugs as there are in most modern rifles. Think of the toggle links of a Luger, except upside down.

Here are some photos of the action of an Uberti 1873 rifle with the one side plate removed. The action of a Model 1866, and the 1860 Henry are identical, in fact most of the parts interchange. And needless to say, the originals were just like this too.

The action is at battery in this view, the links are lined up with their pivot points in a straight line. If the hammer were cocked, the trigger could be pulled and the rifle would fire.

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In this view the lever has been opened slightly and an extension on the lever is pulling the middle pivot point down. The links are beginning to fold, pulling the bolt back. Notice behind the trigger a small tab is protruding down out of the frame. This is the lever lock. When the lever is completely closed, it pushes the tab up. This allows the trigger to be pulled. With the lever down like this, the trigger cannot be pulled so the rifle cannot fire. Contrary to popular opinion, this is not a modern 'lawyer safety'. Starting in the 1880s Winchester included the lever lock because the 44-40 cartridge that the Model 1873 was designed for was more powerful than the old 44 Henry Rimfire cartridge of the Henry and Model 1866. The Winchester engineers thought it prudent to include the lever safety so an out of battery discharge did not occur if the shooter's finger brushed the trigger as the lever was being closed. It is important to note that the 1860 Henry and the Model 1866 Winchester did not have a lever safety, and neither do their modern replicas made by Uberti. So one has to be careful when levering a Henry or a Model 1866 so the trigger is not brushed by the fingers while closing the action. If the trigger is brushed while the lever is closing, and the toggle links are closed enough to allow the firing pin to fire a cartridge, recoil will forcibly fold the links, the firing pin extension may leave the frame in the general direction of the shooter's eye, and the lever will violently jump forward. I have seen the result of such an out of battery discharge, the lever broke and the shooter's hand was bruised. Luckily the firing pin extension did not leave the frame. For this reason I recommend inexperienced shooters buy a '73, not a '66 or the 1860 Henry. Sidbar: I do own and shoot an 1860 Henry regularly, but I am careful to keep my finger away from the trigger while closing the lever. Knock on wood.

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In this photo the lever has been pushed all the way forward. The toggle links are completely folded, the bolt has been retracted completely, and the firing pin extension has cocked the hammer. The lifter (the part that is angling up) has raised the brass carrier up so a new round can be pushed into the chamber when the lever is closed. You can see part of the carrier extending above the frame at the left. The front half of the lever safety can be seen directly behind the trigger, blocking any motion of the trigger. When the lever is pulled back it will straighten the toggle links, which will push the bolt forward, and the bolt will push a fresh round into the chamber. At the last moment the lifter will drop down, pulling the carrier down to line it up with the magazine so a fresh round can pop onto the carrier.

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This is a photo down into the action of an actual Winchester Model 1873. If you look carefully you will see the barrel is marked 38 CAL just in front of the frame, signifying that this one is chambered for 38-40. The toggle link rifles had no 'top' on the front half of the action they were completely open. The Model 1873 had a sliding dust cover, the 1866 and the Henry did not. In this view, the lever has been partially closed and the bolt is shoving a fresh round into the chamber. The extractor is actually pushing the round, the round has not created enough resistance for the extractor to pop over the rim yet. This is normal. The dust cover slides back when the lever has been opened the first time and stays there unless manually pushed forward with the shooter's thumb. Yes, the screw slot on this dust cover has been pretty nastily buggered up.

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In this view, the bolt has pushed the round completely into the chamber, the extractor has popped over the rim, and the carrier has popped to the lower position. The horizontal slot on the dust cover is not typical, I have always suspected some clown used a saw or a file to cut a new slot into an earlier dust cover screw.

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This view of the top of a 44-40 Winchester Model 1892 shows the twin locking lugs that secure the bolt in battery. The entire top of the action is open, the long piece secured by the lugs is the bolt.

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Here is a view of the locking lugs of the Model 1892 with the lever fully forward. The lever has pulled the lugs down out of engagement with the bolt. The lever has also pushed the bolt all the way back and it has cocked the hammer. If you look carefully you can see one of the grooves on the side of the bolt that a lug will ride up into when the lever is closed. No, there is no lever safety on a Model 1892, it does not need one. If the trigger is accidentally pulled while the lever is being closed, the hammer will fall, but the lugs have already started to enter their slots in the bolt, so the bolt will not fly back. But yes, you can slam fire one by keeping the trigger pulled while working the lever fast. We can talk about Chuck Conners another time.

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The carrier of a '92 is very different than a Toggle Link carrier. The carrier pivots to raise a cartridge up to the chamber. In this view, the carrier has pivoted up, pointing the cartridge at the chamber. The bolt is about to close and shove the cartridge into the chamber.

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A word about the 1886 and 1892 Winchesters. Yes, they were both designed by John Browning. The '86 came first, it is a bigger gun, designed for longer rifle cartridges such as the 45-70. Most believe the '92 is simply a scaled down version of the '86. This is pretty much true, however there are some internal differences between the two, particularly in the design of the carriers. In this photo you can see how much bigger and more massive the Model 1886 at the top of the photo is than the Model 1892 at the bottom. This 1886 is chambered for the 45-70, the '92 is chambered for 44-40.

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The very early Marlins were top eject rifles, just like a Winchester, but by 1889 they were side eject and have been ever since. This Marlin Model 1894 is chambered for 44-40 and left the factory in 1895.

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Yes the old girl is pitted and there is no blue left, and the barrel is pitted, but she still shoots well. With a Marlin the carrier pivots up just as the bolt starts to move forward. In this photo the lever is starting to close and the carrier has raised a round up to the chamber. The bolt is just starting to push the round into the chamber. When the lever is worked again the spent brass will be ejected out to the right just before a new round is chambered. There is a single wide locking lug or block that locks the bolt in battery. The hook visible at the top of the lever engages the block to pull it down so the bolt can slide back. Sorry for the clutter in the background. By the way, the Marlin 1894 has had a two piece firing pin for many years, to prevent out of battery discharges.

There has been a lot written recently about the lack of quality in Marlin rifles since they started being made at the Remington factory in Ilion New York a few years ago. The machinery was old and worn, and the men who knew how to milk the best quality out of it were not offered enough money to move from Connecticut to New York. Remington has made a lot of effort to improve quality recently, and just a few weeks ago I had the chance to inspect and fire a newly made Marlin Model 1894 Cowboy chambered for 45 Colt. I can honestly say I was impressed with the quality of the rifle, the fit and function was good and it operated just fine. The action was a little bit stiff, as one would expect from a rifle fresh out of the box. If I was going to buy one I would lighten the springs and smooth the action a little bit, then it would be completely ready for CAS competition.

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The stuff made by the modern Henry Repeating Arms Company does not impress me. They continue to lie by omission leading the naive reader to believe the company has a historical connection with the original 1860 Henry rifle, which is simply not true. With the exception of their 'Original Henry' rifle, which is an accurate replica of the 1860 Henry rifle, the rest of their centerfire rifles are pretty much based on the Marlin design. I have not been impressed with them, they are heavy, there are no aftermarket parts made for them, and the method of loading them without a loading gate is awkward. Yes, my Uberti Henry does not have a loading gate, but that is an historical feature.

Anyway, strength of the various lever guns on the market today:

Yes, a toggle link rifle is not as strong as a Model 1892 Winchester or a Model 1894 Marlin. The toggle link design is not as strong, and the frame of these rifles is skeletonized, unlike the solid frames of the others. However all the Italian rifles are proof tested in government proof houses, and European standards are actually a bit more strigent than US standards. So you can be sure that if you stick with SAAMI max pressure ammunition, any of the toggle link rifles will be safe to shoot. In fact a few years ago Uberti began offering their Model 1873 chambered for 44 Magnum. I do not know if the frame will stand up to repeated abuse of the much more powerful round, but they had to pass a proof test or the Italians would allow them to be sold.

Yes, the Model 1892 Winchester and the Model 1894 Marlin are stronger than any toggle link action, Puma has chambered the Model 1892 for the 454 Casull, and the Marlin is available chambered for 44 Magnum.

One other thing. A toggle link rifle will generally weigh about 1 pound more than a Model 1892 Winchester of the same barrel length and caliber.

And the 1860 Henry weighs another pound more than that.
 
With Regards to Post #63:
This post contains a great deal of information that, for the most part, is helpful and accurate and unbiased. The author has gone to great lengths to explain and illustrate the various rifles, and I commend him for it.

Every rifle except the Henry Big Boy that is. He does not illustrate or explain the workings of same other than to denigrate it.
By his own admission he doesn't like the Henry Company because they suggest that they are a modern day inheritor of the Original Henry Company. They aren't of course, but who cares? That's just merchandising, and in the course of selecting a lever action rifle, is totally irrelevant.
What is relevant is whether the rifles that they make are high quality, backed with a solid guarantee and support, accurate, reliable, smooth functioning,and desirable. The Henry Big Boy is all of these things, and many, many users can attest to it.
And, the Original Henry that they make is second to none in quality.

From the author's comments, it is clear that he rates lever action rifles using a "Cowboy Action Shooting" measuring stick.
Yet, not everyone wants a lever action rifle for this purpose. Many people just want a rifle to shoot informally and/or hunt with.
If it has the flavor of the old west about it, so much the better.

Yes, they load from a tube, and for CAS competition they are awkward to reload rapidly.
And, that tube loading is not authentic to the 1866 Winchester Short Rifle or carbine that they seem to emulating.
But then, the rifle isn't attempting to be a reproduction of an original 1866 Winchester.
It's more like the TC Hawken of the lever action market. Not an authentic reproduction, but still a handsome rifle that looks something like an original.
Also, many people don't want a rifle for CAS, and the tube loading works just fine for range shooting, informal target shooting, or hunting.
Henry has sold a ton of them, and has many satisfied customers.

No, there are no aftermarket parts available to slick up or speed up a Henry Big Boy for CAS. But, unless you intend to use if for CAS this is completely irrelevant.
Yes they are a pound heavier than a Marlin 336 because of that octagon barrel, and if that is an important factor, then they may not be for you.
However, original Henry repros, and octagonal barreled 1866 and 1873 repros are also heavy.

If the weight bothers you, check out the Henry Big Boy Steel. It has a steel receiver and a round carbine barrel, and weighs in at much the same as an 1894 Marlin.

The point is that the Henry Big Boy is a great rifle, so don't dismiss it as a choice without examining one. Then you can decide for yourself.
 
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Howdy Again

What makes you say I am using a 'Cowboy Action Shooting" measuring stick?

Where did I even mention CAS, other than to say if I was going to buy a new Marlin I would lighten the springs and slick it up a bit before bringing it to a match?

In all that I wrote, including the photos, where do I say anything about bringing a rifle to a CAS match. Other than my antiques, every one of the replicas I talked about is perfectly suited right out of the box for the shooter who just wants a lever gun to mess around with and is not interested in CAS.

Regarding the Big Boy, you are correct, I do not like them. Yes, that is purely a personal opinion. I have fired them and do not like the way they handle, and besides I think they are butt ugly. Again, personal opinion. If you like them, fine. But don't criticize me for not going into detail about them because I would never sink any money into one, so I would not be taking one apart or taking photos of one. I mentioned the action is basically the same as a Marlin. That is all that needs to be said. Regarding them not being well suited to reload quickly in CAS competition, reloads on the clock are rare, so that is not an issue. My Henry is just as awkward to reload, if I have to load on the clock I load over the top directly into the chamber. I'm sure the same could be done with a Big Boy, just like a Marlin, by throwing a new round into the ejection port.

But I will never buy a Big Boy and that is all I have to say about that.
 
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