Is rifle marksmanship still valid?

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I'd like to shoot further than I currently can, 200 yards is the limit for me and that's about a 45 minute to an hour drive. There is the CMP range but that is 3 hours away from me and essentially I have one day off a week so that wouldn't work for my schedule. Since I can only shoot out to a maximum of 200 yards I try to focus on my marksmanship skills as best I can.
 
I think marksmanship is more relevant than ever, despite many folks continued willingness to ignore the most important aspect...field marksmanship...in favor of hubble riflescopes and tiny groups from a bench rest.

due to the PRS, field marksmanship is better than it ever has been at any point in the history of the world. in the past 10 years, not only has the bar been raised SUBSTANTIALLY in terms of the art of the possible and the expectations around what's a high % target, but also the number of competent field marksmen has increased orders of magnitude.

I don't see any riflemen shooting for an $11M purse this week. Just sayin'
no, but golfers aren't exactly developing any sort of practical skill, while the rifle competitions are.

My interest is the 2A and seeing the state of civilian marksmanship these days, along with the collective mindset of the vast majority of competitors, makes me very very happy.
3gun has very useful skills, but when it comes time to do 2A stuff, and as was stated above, every dude with a deer rifle is capable of 500 yard shots, then maybe the gov rethinks tyranny a lot quicker.
 
The opposite is true. The vast majority of shooters today are not hunters and the emphasis is now on target shooting or personal protection. There are more shooters than ever interested in 500+ yard shooting.

Marksmanship - to me (and used to be to the Army and Marine Corps as well):

...is < 4 MOA, rapid-fire and slow, from field positions, out to 500 yards, w/ an aperture sighted Service Rifle and Ball ammo.

What is the interest in that these days...?




GR
 
@taliv I think we fundamentally agree. Allow me to elaborate. I believe PRC and the related skillset are more in line with true sniping, which has made great strides in terms of technology and skill this century, than what I call field marksmanship. In that term, I'm describing something more along the lines of what Garandimal would recognize in his post. Prone, sitting, offhand, improvised rest with a "standard rifle," be it a service rifle or practical hunting arm, not a specialized long range rig, to reasonable combat or hunting distances. This is far from dead as well. The service rifle cut scores in EIC continue to rise, as do the Garand, Vintage, Springfield cut scores, but every year when I assist at our clubs rifle sight in, I see fewer and fewer shooters willing or able to shoot confidently at relatively short ranges sans rest. I take it as my mission in life to change this, one shooter at a time. I always bring a mild shooting K-31 or M96 and encourage any youth that are present to shoot it free of charge offhand at a relatively close and large target. A few others at the club have recently followed suit and brought suitable rifles for youth to try out during sight in days.
 
no, but golfers aren't exactly developing any sort of practical skill, while the rifle competitions are.

Yea, since when was making millions of dollars and securing the future of yourself and your family, ever a "practical skill." LOL

Keep preppin'

Maybe someday... ;)
 
I feel like too many shooters today don't even realize there is a difference between shooting from a bench and shooting from field positions. I can't even tell you the last time I saw someone at my club using prone or sitting or kneeling and God forbid offhand. Every Oct/Nov the hordes show up and bang away from the bench never even trying a field pos.
Is rifle marksmanship still relevant? Hell yes it is. Is it truly practiced? Not very often.
 
mdThanatos: Do you mean with iron sights, or red dots and scopes etc?

The approx. sixteen-eighteen rifles I've owned have had Only iron sights. No exceptions. Have never owned any other such gear, and have never hunted (was never exposed to it).
 
mdThanatos: Do you mean with iron sights, or red dots and scopes etc?

The approx. sixteen-eighteen rifles I've owned have had Only iron sights. No exceptions. Have never owned any other such gear, and have never hunted (was never exposed to it).

All three. I tend to use an optic more often than not due to poor vision but still try to use all three to have some proficiency.
 
Many hunters I have sighted in with at the range have terrible flinches even with mild recoiling rifles like a .243.

A lot of folks could use some basic marksmanship. But no I do not think marksmanship is becoming irrelevant.
 
In a world of shrinking yardage due to urban expansion is the art of the rifle still valid to our society as only a small percentage is able to use a rifle to its fullest extent meaning anything past 100 yards anything less is just wasteful of potential.

Don't discount close. Just because a person has good bench skills, maybe even knows a bit about doping the wind, doesn't mean he understands close range riflery. There's something visceral about peering through an aperture or across open sights at a bounding buck that you can't reproduce with a bolt action telescopically sighted rifle. The older rifles were stocked differently: more drop at heel and comb for quick acquisition and balance offhand, characteristics primarily bench shooters have eschewed for years.

This world has never had many real field riflemen and probably never will. A high percentage of them live in that ribbon of mountains that run up from Georgia to way up in New England. Pursuit of the grey squirrel and the groundhog has been the thing that transitioned many an old boy from the target range to becoming something more.

They're still out there, the riflemen. Unless you know what to look for, you'll never pick them out of the crowd. There never were many. My father said when he went through basic infantry training in '45 only five others in his training group had ever fired a rifle in their lives.
 
In a world of shrinking yardage due to urban expansion is the art of the rifle still valid to our society as only a small percentage is able to use a rifle to its fullest extent meaning anything past 100 yards anything less is just wasteful of potential.
In a word, yes if you intend to hunt globally or even out West. I started hunting deer in Eastern PA where 200 yards was long shot. At 200 yards and beyond you were sure to hit trees or a stone row full of brush.

HOWEVER I hunted Elk in Montana last Thanksgiving. The distances were stunning. 300-600 yards was a reasonable and expected shot. Two guys got Elk at 600 yards the week I was in camp and no one even blinked upon hearing the distance.

This was one area where I set up and was expected to shoot.
According to my rangefinder which factors angle, the distance to the first clump of trees and to the farther tree line was 600 & 800 yards respectively IIRC.
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The older rifles were stocked differently: more drop at heel and comb for quick acquisition and balance offhand, characteristics primarily bench shooters have eschewed for years.
This also causes them to rise rather more than a straight stocked rifle. In a fast, hard kicking cartridge it will slap you in the face. Perhaps I just don't shoot that style of stock well tho, I sure don't shoot shotguns well. I grew up shooting scoped, straightish stocked rifles, so that probably has something to do with it.

In all seriousness I generally consider myself a rifleman, rather than a shooter. If I can do it with a pistol, or shotgun, I can probably do it with a rifle as well or better.

I'm not horribly proficient at dropping shots on target at long range tho, it's a skill I haven't had much chance to practice.
 
What's golf?
I've worked near golf ranges and watched them in action. It appears to be a little bit like sporting clays, but with more ways to cheat and less ways to enjoy yourself. I think it was invented as a way to gradually wear out the clothes in your closet gifted to you by in-laws.
 
After 20yrs as an instructor, I would disagree that riflemanship and marksmanship skills are dying. My experience and observation is absolutely the opposite. More people own and use firearms today than ever before, and GOOD information and access to GOOD instruction is easier than ever before. In generations past, a new shooter effectively had to find a direct mentor to introduce them to these skills, today, there’s far more access to this information. Instead of being mislead by a well-meaning neighbor or uncle or father who KINDA knows how to shoot but tells a newbie they don’t need a $200 scope or tells them a deer won’t notice the difference between a 1” group and the 3” group they’re shooting, a new shooter has access to fundamental information, and access to universal standards to measure their performance by which the rest of us live by. We have more broadly spread knowledge and understanding of external ballistics and better access to ballistic calculators than ever before - whereas a generation ago, fathers and grandfathers might have told a new shooter, “sight in 1” high at 100, that’ll be good out to 300.”

Hell, in one of my long range classes, an older “student” there with his teenage son said his father had told him shooting 1,000yrds was impossible, because there’s no bullet left. The bullets are moving so fast that they grind themselves away on the air so there’s nothing left that far... I honestly expect that was an excuse someone came up with to excuse why they completely missed a target at long range at one point, and for some reason, it stuck. Guess how that father had raised his son to think about long range shooting - both were in disbelief when 20 rounds into a range session, I had them hitting targets at 600yrds, and within a couple hours, 1,000.

I would go so far as to use the fact we THINK rifles are getting more accurate “due to the accuracy of modern machining processes.” I say we THINK that because we sure seem to say it often online these days (myself included, but I’m working on that), but in my experience, not many rifles actually seem to represent that fact. I truly believe the average shooter 1) didn’t expect/demand tiny groups in the past, and 2) couldn’t shoot for **** as a result. When a new shooter in 2019 buys a rifle, shoots a 3” group, and sees online that it should shoot under 1”, they ask questions in places like this to help themselves improve. In the past, a family member might have coached them (good or bad) to improve a little, or they might have just said, “it’ll still kill a deer,” and the newbie might have picked up and gone home, happy with their sub-standard results. I’m absolutely not convinced new common rifles actually shoot any better than the common rifles of the past. But I HAVE taken a lot of crappy scopes off of older rifles which were so bad, a guy could barely see a 200yrd target.

I have also had to coach a dozen or so shooters that they can’t expect small groups when they mix and match brands of ammo within the same group - even of different bullet weights!!

Folks didn’t know any better in the past because they only had access to the knowledge base of the people around them, and bad advice and low acceptable standards were spread all over our Nation by well-meaning folks who really didn’t know any better.

So I’d happily defend that we are better shooters as a country in 2019 than we were 20-40yrs ago.
 
I've worked near golf ranges and watched them in action. It appears to be a little bit like sporting clays, but with more ways to cheat and less ways to enjoy yourself. I think it was invented as a way to gradually wear out the clothes in your closet gifted to you by in-laws.
Huh, that actually sounds like a reasonable reason.
Out here it's mostly a park where you can drink beer, and drive little cars with your buddies. Some folks pretend to play the game even.
 
What's golf?

Thanks to my son-in-law I know a little about it. It's a game where you get exercise climbing into and out of a cart while you drive around on a lot of green grass. You whack this little round ball with a club, climb into your cart, drive down and find your ball, climb out of the cart, and whack it again and apparently the idea is make it fall in a little hole with less whacks than some one thinks you should make to do so. Then you retrieve the little ball and do it over and over. At the end of the day you complain about how bad your back hurts from swinging that club. Then you go repeat the process again the next time you can get away from work. :evil:

The chances of someone making a million dollars playing this game are less than winning the lottery I would imagine. The players I know spend just as much or more on equipment as shooters with no more return but probably enjoy their game as much as I do shooting. However I don't complain about a backache after I finish a shooting session so that's a plus for shooting in my book. :thumbup:
 
This also causes them to rise rather more than a straight stocked rifle. In a fast, hard kicking cartridge it will slap you in the face. Perhaps I just don't shoot that style of stock well tho, I sure don't shoot shotguns well. I grew up shooting scoped, straightish stocked rifles, so that probably has something to do with it.

In all seriousness I generally consider myself a rifleman, rather than a shooter. If I can do it with a pistol, or shotgun, I can probably do it with a rifle as well or better.

I'm not horribly proficient at dropping shots on target at long range tho, it's a skill I haven't had much chance to practice.

You're absolutely right. Compare say the recoil of a modern Marlin 45-70 with an original. The original, even if it's heavier, will kick you much harder. Plus, those crooked stocks on the older bolt-guns, usually don't do nearly so well with a telescopically sighted rifle. If your head isn't always in the same place when you cheek the stock, the placement of your bullet downrange is going to vary as well. Where the old stocks work so well is quick acquisition at close range.

Few people are as good as they imagine at extreme long range shooting. It's one thing to dial in on a known distance range. Doping the wind, or estimating the range is a difficult skill. On a dead calm day you can do things at extreme ranges you can reproduce on another day with very subtle vagaries in light and wind.

I'm too old to be good at it, and I've seen it go wrong too many times. I've killed my share of game. I thoroughly enjoy estimating the range and the wind, and banging away at an inanimate target at five hundred yards plus, but unless the animal is already wounded and I'm cleaning up a mess, I'm not going to try it on an untouched animal unless it's something like a groundhog or a crow. When the wind eddies in these hills, it can completely fool you, and push a bullet in the exact opposite direction you might have assumed.
 
If you hunt on the east coast you might have a point. However if you come out west you definitely need good marksmanship if you want to be successful. Im not much of a hunter but my friends here in Az regularly make 300-500 yard shots on deer, elk, and goats.

I took the family to the Grand Canyon a couple weeks ago. The trip was 3 hours in the truck and 2 hours on a train. The majority of that trip was traveling through hundreds of square miles of empty land.

Then you can add in the last 17 years of war. Whether it's the long distance engagements in the open farm lands and mountains of Iraq and Afghanistan or threading a bullet through a window at 200 meters in the urban areas, marksmanship still is a used skill.
 
Absolutely still relevant. As a hunter i have cleanly taken game out to around 400 yards. I aim small and miss small.

Whether you shoot 10 yards or 1000 yards your marksmanship is key to being a good responsible shooter. I can't think of anything more relevant to shooting than marksmanship.
 
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