Conclusions and contradictions regarding shotgun fit

After you read this, you will either believe me and thank me or think I'm nuts and revile me. So let's begin:

I have been working to improve the fit of my 12 ga sporting clays gun. That means talking to you folks on the forum and doing a lot of reading online, some of the material recommended by you all. Most talk about shotgun fit involves a listing of the major dimensions/measurements of the gun, length of pull, drop at heel and comb, and cast. And there is a lot of talk about how these measurements affect the fit of the gun. What is rarely discussed is what does fit mean. What is a good fit?

And that is where things get really squirrely. Suppose you look at pictures in these articles and videos. What do you see? Everything under the sun. No two people, even the experts, are mounting their gun the same way. No names are needed. One guy with one of those really funky British speech impediments has the comb down below his bottom teeth, and he is supposed to be an expert. Another guy has it between his two rows and teeth. Another guy has it in his cheek pocket above his teeth and below his eyes. Same for the shoulder pocket, whatever that is. Left to right, up or down, no two folks have the butt of the stock in the same place. Don't even start on length of pull.

Yet many people think their gun fits well because such and such a company makes their guns to fit normal American men and, of course, everyone wants to think they are normal.

But if you read enough, you start to see some principles that really do allow a fit based on a person's physical data. Thing is those principles and what fitters really do bear no relation to each other as far as I can tell. If they did, everyone would be walking around with guns that look like mine does now:



Here are the basic principles as near as I can tell: nose about 1-2 inches behind the thumb, butt in the shoulder pocket, comb firmly in the cheek pocket just below the eye socket orbital bone, and one more thing that is the key to it all, THE HEAD PERFECTLY ERECT. This last thing is what shotgun fitting should be all about according to the most authoritative writings, but for most people never is. For the best vision, what shotgunning is all about, vision, the head should be neither turned nor tilted at all. Neither from side to side, nor front to back. Not leaning over the gun, not forward onto the comb. This keeps the eyes level horizontally, centered in the eye sockets, and pointed straight ahead. If you violate any of these, then you are looking with one eye above the other, the eyes rolled up high or far to the left or right. Not good. Well, damn, that changes everything with regard to fit.

Here is my personal example. Too bad I am too lazy to draw a diagram. My gun had originally LOP of 14 3/4", drop at heel of 2 3/8", drop at comb of 1 1/2", and cast off of about 1/4". As a lefty I first had the stock bent in reverse to change the cast to about 1/4" on or in the other direction.

Now my important base measurements not with a gun mounted, which are not all that weird: 6 inches from top of my shoulder to the center of my eyeball vertically and 3 1/2 inches horizontally. My cheek pocket is 1 1/2 inches below my eyeball center and 3/4" to the left. So the top of my shoulder is 4 1/2" below my cheek pocket and 2 3/4" to the left.

First the good news. When the comb is firmly in my cheek pocket, the rib is at the perfect height for my eyes. So I don't need an adjustable comb or modified-height rib. It all goes downhill from there. Assuming just for simplicity that the heel should end up right at the top of the shoulder, I have a 3 5/8" discrepancy between the drop at heel of the gun and my anatomical drop from eye to top of shoulder. That is huge, but not really unusual. Supposing your discrepancy is 2 inches or 5. It is still a problem. My eye is 3 1/2 inches to the right of where I will mount the stock. Who is it that thinks these guns were made to fit normal Americans.

Admittedly the shooting position with your shooting arm and shoulder raised up and toward your face and your torso twisted somewhat in relation to the direction the barrel points collapses some of these discrepancies quite a bit and brings your shoulder pocket closer to your cheek pocket both horizontally and vertically. Let’s say with the gun mounted your shoulder pocket is 2 inches higher and 1 inch closer to your face. But no where near all the way needed. Hence my crazy looking adjustable butt plate. With the butt just about at the top of my shoulder and twisted toward my cheek, I can obey the erect head rule and still have the rib right down the center of my eye. My friend tells me it can't be right. He doesn't have to do that, and I am not deformed. How can it be? Well, that is what happens when you try to follow the erect head rule.

And don't get me started about the gun being canted toward my face. That is driving people crazy. They all "know" that you must keep the gun straight up and down. No canting allowed...unless you want it to fit.

By the way, since installing the adjustable butt plate, my scores have gone up from about 25% to about 50%. Jus' sayin'.

So this all raises one question. If the erect head is really important, why don't everyones' guns look like mine? And it could be worse. You could also need to adjust the comb and/or rib height. Another interesting question is if you did this with a custom stock, what would it look like? Can you get enough lift, enough cast? Would a bespoke gun maker force you to adopt the preferred erect head position when measuring you for your new gun, or would he build the gun to how you always have mounted one and call it a fit? I grew up in the men's custom clothing business, so I know how that kind of thing works. Tailors don't tell their customers to stand up straight and put their shoulders back if that isn't how they naturally stand. What good would that do? The clothes wouldn't fit when the customer relaxed into their natural postures. But shouldn’t a fitter attempt to educate the customer about the best gun mounting form?

Interesting, no?

George P said:

If you have ever watched some of the top dogs in Sporting like Matarese, DeMichel, and a host of others, they either mash their cheek and neck down on their gun or it never touches the cheek in the first place. Two completely different extremes, yet it is what works best for them. That is all you can - find out what set up fits YOU

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It is hard for me to understand how you can talk about someone whose job it is to fit a shotgun to you and then say that however you want to mount the gun is what is right for you. Either the fitter is an authority about what is right or he is not.

kudu said:

While I understand what you are saying, it's not about having your head fully erect. I'm sure your gun fits what you are trying to do, I'm guessing trap shooting, where you are ready standing on a line and have the gun mounted. Can you mount your gun swinging on a flushing bird, or do you have to 'set up' before you are ready to pull the trigger? Not saying it's wrong by any means, I have never had a stock 'fit' to me, but if I can close my eyes and quickly mount a gun to my shoulder and place my cheek on the gun, not with my head fully erect, and when I open my eyes, my dominant right eye is looking straight down the rib or barrel I think that is 90% of having the gun fit me. I may see more rib between beads on some guns than others, and that will effect pattern height of 60-40 for skeet and sporting to 90-10 for how I like my trap gun.

Now I have shot with people that have had custom stocks built that shoot fully erect and shoot AA scores, some have problems with their neck where they can't bend it from an accident or some other reason. If what you are doing works for you great, I have always been told and from some excellent champion shooters to, that you need your head down on the stock. You are bringing your stock up to your head, which also works as long as you are looking down the barrel that is what counts.

Last week I broke out a CZ 20 gauge SxS that I bought a couple years ago and haven't shot much, gun weighs about 6#'s and I was using light 3/4oz loads in my 20 ga. The gun really doesn't fit me well and beat the heck out of my shoulder and face, my first round of skeet with it I shot a 23, the second round I just looked over the barrel with my head off the stock because it was really bruising my cheek, ran a 25 straight. Not a typical way to shoot, but I have also run straights in the past shooting a pump gun from the hip. I find that if I focus entirely on the target, that the gun is just along for the ride and is in the right place when I pull the trigger.

Very few people will have the same shooting stance or way of doing what we think of as right. There is a basic way to set up for targets in skeet and sporting and trap shooting, but once you get the basics down, you are free to find what is the most comfortable way for you to shoot for your type of body stance and form. If it works for you great, if not I am glad you have found a way to shoot well and enjoy the game and have shared your experiences with fitting a gun to yourself with everyone everyone here.

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Some authorities do think it is about having the head erect. I guess I will have to look them up. But hey, do what you want. I'm just using words to have some fun.

earlthegoat2 said:

Have you read Michael Yardley’s book?

I would assume yes if you are making diatribe about gun fit.

There is also the Orvis Guide to Gun Fitting and The Stock Fitters Bible. Pretty good reading if you are into this subject.

I never knew the erect head was some kind of hard and fast rule. Probably because it isn’t.

How many times did you shoot at a patterning board during your gun fitting adventure?

How many times did a stock fitter watch you while you mounted your gun and then examine the final pose?

Everybody is different that is correct. I lean in and move my head forward. An old habit from instinctive shooting a longbow. Something that is not much different than clays shooting. This puts my eye squarely down the concave rib of my SxS....which brings up another point. Stick fit also depends on the type of gun. I use a game gun for my clays shooting. Not the best tool for the game but it is what I use to hunt with and I don’t care about topping out my score on the clays games. Light and slender and whippy as opposed to the average O/U with a more massive stock and formed generally. Among many, many, other things.

A good fitter will work with what is comfortable for the shooter and not try and bend the body and neck to suit their version of what is “right”.

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Diatribe is a pretty harsh description. As I said, just sharing some thoughts and having some fun. But I ask you what is more comfortable than having your head upright?

As for cheek weld, it does not at all require bringing the head forward to reach the stock if the stock isn't too low. I bring my gun up to my cheek and plant the cheek on the comb with my head completely upright.

Here is a reference to the erect head theory. Read down far enough to get to it.
https://shotgunreport.com/2015/12/09/head-placement/
Here is another one:
https://shotgunpatternpro.com/forum/information-articles-editorials/65-shotgun-fit.html
And paragraph #2 in this article. Also look at the photo:
https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/shooting/instruction/improve-gun-mount-minutes-38262
And look at the second post on this page linked below. Rollin Oswald is something of an expert I believe:
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=321113
This one suggests that erect head is most desirable but that it is harder with a long neck. I say only if you aren't willing to modify your stock.
https://shotgunreport.com/2017/05/05/long-neck-gun-fit/
This one stresses "eyes level" which is the same thing as erect head.
https://www.fieldandstream.com/how-to-use-proper-form-to-improve-your-shotgun-accuracy
And another one. See the lower middle of the first page under "Mount".
https://georgiawildlife.com/sites/d...shooting-sports/At Home Drills posted2016.pdf

This is a classic case of the verbal instructions are belied by the photo. Do what I say, not what I do: This is from a Boy Scouts training presentation. Note it says to keep the head level and then shows the demonstrator with his head bent forward and over the stock. This is a classic.

So I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea. Over and over you see it recommended to keep your head erect. What you don't see is any help with how to do that and still keep the butt plate in your shoulder pocket, the comb welded into your cheek pocket, and the rib centered on the eye. I have found that using an adjustable butt plate does the job for me. YMMV.

One other thing. I think the idea that your "natural" mounting posture is what is comfortable for you is hooey. My bet is you adopted your current posture, because that is what you had to do to get your eye behind the rib, your butt plate into your shoulder pocket and somewhere on your cheek onto the comb without spending any more money. After years of doing that you think it is natural and your shotgun really fits you.

Don't flame me for having an opinion, but frankly I highly doubt it. Fact is, based on what I have learned with the adjustable butt plate and my unwillingness to settle for anything but an erect head, I think nobody with a real neck has a gun that fit out of the box. And the fix isn't usually a tweak. It is a full on lowering of the butt plate if not also raising the comb and rib. And it requires canting the gun into your center to get it really under your eye without bending your head over. A little cast just isn't going to cut it.

Who knew that heresy was so much fun?

Your turn.

George P said:

But it still comes down to how it feels to you when you mount amnd shoot.

On Shotgunworld.com there is the author of "The Stockfitter's Bible - his name is Rollin Oswald. You might want to get his book from Amazon.

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I linked to him above. He’s one of the erect head guys.

George P said:

But it still comes down to how it feels to you when you mount amnd shoot.

On Shotgunworld.com there is the author of "The Stockfitter's Bible - his name is Rollin Oswald. You might want to get his book from Amazon.

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I just ordered Oswald's book, second edition.

Let's lighten things up a little bit, shall we on the question of fit the gun to the shooter or the shooter to the gun. I mentioned above that I grew up in a men's clothing tailoring business. My dad measured and fit for tailoring and his brothers did the cutting and sewing. As you may know in every field of endeavor there are jokes, lawyer jokes, doctor jokes, clergyman jokes, and so on. Well the same is true for people in the clothing business. It is uncanny how this particular joke I am about to relate crosses over seamlessly from clothing to shotguns.

A man walks into a clothing store and announces he wants a blue, glen-plaid suit. The salesman is crestfallen, because he only has that pattern and color in a size 50 extra long portly, but the customer wears a 42 regular. But never willing to give up a sale, he has the customer try it on. The guy comes out of the fitting room a mess. Everything is too big, too long, too loose. And the man needs the suit that evening so there is no time for alterations even if they could possibly fix such a misfit. But the salesman shows the customer how to bend his knees to draw up the pants bottoms and keep them from dragging, how to hold the waist of the pants with one hand to keep them from falling off, how to bend his arms to shorten the sleeves, how to bend over at the waist to take up the length in the coat, and how to hunch his shoulders to take the extra room out of the back. Satisfied the customer pays and leaves the store wearing his new suit. Hobbling down the street, all bent over to keep his new suit from falling off, pretty soon he passes two nuns Sister Mary Margaret and Sister Bridgette Ann.

As the man passes them, Sister Mary Margaret whispers to Sister Bridgette Ann, "Oh Sister, will you look at that poor crippled gentleman. Bless him, what a pity! I can hardly bare to look at him."

"Sure you are right," Sister, says Bridgett Ann, "but just look at how fine his suit fits!"

Honestly, when someone writes that they lower their head to the stock instead of bringing the stock up to their head or talks about some other accommodation for a badly fitting gun, I cannot help but smile, thinking of this joke. We are surely the sum of our experiences.

George P said:

And there is a difference between clay games where you premount before calling pull, like US trap and skeet, and other games where a low gun mount is required like FITASC ans ISSF skeet. Since I shoot a variety of games where I can pre mount, shoot low gun or do a hybrid (also called a soft mount), I need something that works for the ultimate low gun scenario.

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I just shoot for fun. There are no rules. I use a relaxed mount with the butt at my shoulder pocket and the barrel a little down so I can see the clay well. I don’t like holding the gun to my face while waiting for the target. After calling pull I raise the comb to my cheek. So far all I have shot is sporting clays. Learning little by little.

George P said:

We call that a "soft mount" in sporting clays. Bill McGuire is a big name who uses that method VERY well. If you were to try FITASC, you would need to keep the top of the stock below the low mount line (which is 25cm below your shoulder or about nipple area for most folks). If you can perfect a low gun mount, you can shoot everything well.

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Good info, but I think you meant 25 mm.

Jack Ryan said:

Telling people to do it correctly is one thing but in the end you have to adjust from that to what the gun will allow you to do. That is how you end up with those kind of instructions with that kind of picture.

This is also the whole point behind custom shotguns compared to off the rack. You get to do things correctly and when the gun doesn't FIT the correct methods, you adjust the gun to fit rather than just do the best you can with the gun you have.

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In principle your right, but some people do and some people don’t. I had the adjustable butt plate installed so I could inexpensively get a custom setup. $350 instead of $3,500. I understand not everyone will modify their guns. What gets me is saying the gun fits when it clearly doesn't

George P said:

No, the rule is 25cm, about 10+ inches give or take. As a certified ref, I had a rope exactly 25cm long that I would hold one end from the shoulder seam centerline and then down. On women with large breasts, their mark was higher, as it was also for gents who really worked out and had huge chests. For the rest of us, it was basically a mark on your vest or shirt about where you nipple is.

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Oh, okay, I see that now. Sorry.