LNL AP seat crimp die sticking

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My Hornady 9mm and 38-Super seating dies did the exact same thing....................I even took pictures.
Yep, that's it, and while it does a great "Modified" roll crimp, it is way to sharp for a proper taper crimp and makes adjustment for it very critical.

A "Modified" Roll crimp using the Hornday seater with those type inserts. This one is in .32 though.
Modified Roll Crimp on a 100 Gr XTP in .32 Mag Pic 1.JPG
 
Mine sticks a little like shown in the vid. Case lube(1), polishing the die(2) should improve it, but doubt you'll ever see it 'disappear'.

(1) I wet tumble and use 'car wash and wax'. Used to use a little RCBS or One Shot spray on previously. Some kind of 'something' for lube, at least on tapered cases/9mm, is better than nothing, IMHO. Required? No, probably not, but it just makes it a lot smoother.

(2) I have not polished my die. Well over 10k rounds through it and it's pretty 'hazy looking' in there,,,, Certainly not shiny smooth by any stretch. I, too, have moved on to "crimping" (just removing the bell on 9 and 45) in a separate step.
 
Get a proper crimp die, it appears that Hornady cheats and uses the same insert for 9MM and .38, using an in between angle on the crimp ledge. Either way, the ledge is not ideal, especially for a taper "crimp". Or if you have a lathe, make a proper insert.
 
Get a proper crimp die, it appears that Hornady cheats and uses the same insert for 9MM and .38, using an in between angle on the crimp ledge. Either way, the ledge is not ideal, especially for a taper "crimp". Or if you have a lathe, make a proper insert.
Good call
Buying a traditional type cheap crimp die (Lee) would be the best choice.

I would risk modifying the "too steep" insert, as it is useless as is.
Maybe flip it over and start new by cutting a shallower angle on the other end:uhoh:.
I would try a carbide boring bar/lathe or if I was feeling brave maybe a hand held dremmel and lathe or something else to spin it.
I don't have a tool post dremmel mount but have had a use for one in the past.
:)
 
Too much work, buy a Lee 9MM crimp die.

I did make my own insert and seater stem for a Hornady seater die body in .32. No crimping, just seating.
 

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Good morning everyone. Time for an update.
I sent the video and email describing my problem to Hornady Friday around 9:30 AM. As of now, I have heard nothing back. If I do, I will post it here.
I do wet tumble and I did try lubing the cases, if the binding was a 10, the case lube reduced it to an 8. Slight difference only.
I backed the die out in increments of 1/4 turn until I got to two full turns out. Any crimp and the binding continued. I looked at modifying the die as suggested but then thought, screw that and reinstalled my Lee dies. Within 20 minutes I had my first loaded test round. The Lee dies work. And work flawlessly!
I am so disappointed in Hornady.
The sizing die is crap. The expander die either has not enough flair and I have to guide the bullet into the seating die by hand or flairs too much that the bullet falls into the case of it's own weight. Seriously, I adjusted in tiny increments and a fraction of a turn was not enough and a fraction more was too much. When I crimped, it was pretty much undetectable on the calipers. If I had no crimp, the bullet easily pushed back into the case with not very much pressure placed on the tip against the bench. I do understand that neck tension not crimp holds the bullet in place, but for whatever reason, this die just did not do it's job.

I picked up the PTX insert for the powder drop and it does work as advertised. At least something does and I was able to get rid of the expander die.
I am sorry I spent the money on the LNL thinking it was better quality then the Lee Classic. Yes, it is all metal and bigger, but that does not always make it better. I chose it over the Lee breech lock or load master because of the hundreds of videos of how they are so finicky and need constant adjustment. I don't know if Dillon is better, but based on this experience, I am out about $500 for something that is no better than what I already had and glad I did not spend the $1,300 on the Dillon.

Now, I am having primer feed issues. When it decides to set a primer it works fine. Most times as I cycle the press handle forward to set a primer the shell plate is of by about 1/4" off and is indexing too far. This is happening when I run a single case through the complete loading cycle. I am a long way from trusting this press to go full AP. So far, the priming portion is spongy and not very solid as the press handle is pushed forward. There is no real "feel" of the primer seating as with the Lee Classic. I will keep plugging away and figure this out too.

I can't believe the poor quality of the Hornady dies. Both the seat/crimp dies I have are garbage. I do not feel like I (or any of us) should have to modify a brand new product to get it to work properly. Yes, we all like to tinker, but this is way past tinker. It is not only us in this thread that have had the problem with the Hornady seat/crimp die, but in reading on the internet, it is a common problem. Which also makes me angry at the Hornady customer service call I made last week and was told that they have never heard of that. I say B.S.! We will see if they reply to my email or not. I will be returning my 3 die set to Cabela's tomorrow and the single seat/crimp die to Midway USA

I hope to get the bugs worked out of the priming issue and be able to take full advantage of this press. I already de-prime off the press because it makes such a mess on the press and I like to wet tumble to get the primer pockets clean. I don't want to have to prime off the press too.

Happy Sunday to y'all and thank you for your interest and help getting this resolved.
 
CALL Hornady! (not Monday as they are to busy) They will make the die right or replace it.

As to your priming issues, I went through that also. It takes some adjusting on the timing pawls (very small) Once dialed in the press works very well, There is a lot of feel in priming.

All presses have a learning curve.
 
Good morning everyone. Time for an update.
I sent the video and email describing my problem to Hornady Friday around 9:30 AM. As of now, I have heard nothing back. If I do, I will post it here.
I do wet tumble and I did try lubing the cases, if the binding was a 10, the case lube reduced it to an 8. Slight difference only.
I backed the die out in increments of 1/4 turn until I got to two full turns out. Any crimp and the binding continued. I looked at modifying the die as suggested but then thought, screw that and reinstalled my Lee dies. Within 20 minutes I had my first loaded test round. The Lee dies work. And work flawlessly!
I am so disappointed in Hornady.
The sizing die is crap. The expander die either has not enough flair and I have to guide the bullet into the seating die by hand or flairs too much that the bullet falls into the case of it's own weight. Seriously, I adjusted in tiny increments and a fraction of a turn was not enough and a fraction more was too much. When I crimped, it was pretty much undetectable on the calipers. If I had no crimp, the bullet easily pushed back into the case with not very much pressure placed on the tip against the bench. I do understand that neck tension not crimp holds the bullet in place, but for whatever reason, this die just did not do it's job.

I picked up the PTX insert for the powder drop and it does work as advertised. At least something does and I was able to get rid of the expander die.
I am sorry I spent the money on the LNL thinking it was better quality then the Lee Classic. Yes, it is all metal and bigger, but that does not always make it better. I chose it over the Lee breech lock or load master because of the hundreds of videos of how they are so finicky and need constant adjustment. I don't know if Dillon is better, but based on this experience, I am out about $500 for something that is no better than what I already had and glad I did not spend the $1,300 on the Dillon.

Now, I am having primer feed issues. When it decides to set a primer it works fine. Most times as I cycle the press handle forward to set a primer the shell plate is of by about 1/4" off and is indexing too far. This is happening when I run a single case through the complete loading cycle. I am a long way from trusting this press to go full AP. So far, the priming portion is spongy and not very solid as the press handle is pushed forward. There is no real "feel" of the primer seating as with the Lee Classic. I will keep plugging away and figure this out too.

I can't believe the poor quality of the Hornady dies. Both the seat/crimp dies I have are garbage. I do not feel like I (or any of us) should have to modify a brand new product to get it to work properly. Yes, we all like to tinker, but this is way past tinker. It is not only us in this thread that have had the problem with the Hornady seat/crimp die, but in reading on the internet, it is a common problem. Which also makes me angry at the Hornady customer service call I made last week and was told that they have never heard of that. I say B.S.! We will see if they reply to my email or not. I will be returning my 3 die set to Cabela's tomorrow and the single seat/crimp die to Midway USA

I hope to get the bugs worked out of the priming issue and be able to take full advantage of this press. I already de-prime off the press because it makes such a mess on the press and I like to wet tumble to get the primer pockets clean. I don't want to have to prime off the press too.

Happy Sunday to y'all and thank you for your interest and help getting this resolved.
Sounds like you are getting things sorted out

It's really a design flaw in the Hornady crimp die (angle too steep), not a quality issue, as proven by the Walkalong's link to a 2006 related post.
And Hornady's response to calls about it as being something they have never heard before is disconcerting to me.

With just about every new owner of the LNL posting the need to "adjust" the indexing pawls you would think Hornady would have something, a jig, alignment tooling/station for final pall adjustment, after assembly is completed.
Although that would require some human inter-action and cost money to implement, it would cut their "help line calls" to almost nothing.
So have 1 (more) employee in production to tweak/adj. the palls or a bank of people to answer calls about it :scrutiny:.
:D
 
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Ghost In The Fog, thanks for the update. Very sorry to hear things aren't going well. I'm sure you can get things up and running at some point, but that's not much encouragement when you're sitting there on the weekend frustrated.

Good luck, keep us posted.

Dave
 
Good morning everyone. Time for an update.
I sent the video and email describing my problem to Hornady Friday around 9:30 AM. As of now, I have heard nothing back. If I do, I will post it here.
I do wet tumble and I did try lubing the cases, if the binding was a 10, the case lube reduced it to an 8. Slight difference only.
I backed the die out in increments of 1/4 turn until I got to two full turns out. Any crimp and the binding continued. I looked at modifying the die as suggested but then thought, screw that and reinstalled my Lee dies. Within 20 minutes I had my first loaded test round. The Lee dies work. And work flawlessly!
I am so disappointed in Hornady.
The sizing die is crap. The expander die either has not enough flair and I have to guide the bullet into the seating die by hand or flairs too much that the bullet falls into the case of it's own weight. Seriously, I adjusted in tiny increments and a fraction of a turn was not enough and a fraction more was too much. When I crimped, it was pretty much undetectable on the calipers. If I had no crimp, the bullet easily pushed back into the case with not very much pressure placed on the tip against the bench. I do understand that neck tension not crimp holds the bullet in place, but for whatever reason, this die just did not do it's job.

I picked up the PTX insert for the powder drop and it does work as advertised. At least something does and I was able to get rid of the expander die.
I am sorry I spent the money on the LNL thinking it was better quality then the Lee Classic. Yes, it is all metal and bigger, but that does not always make it better. I chose it over the Lee breech lock or load master because of the hundreds of videos of how they are so finicky and need constant adjustment. I don't know if Dillon is better, but based on this experience, I am out about $500 for something that is no better than what I already had and glad I did not spend the $1,300 on the Dillon.

Now, I am having primer feed issues. When it decides to set a primer it works fine. Most times as I cycle the press handle forward to set a primer the shell plate is of by about 1/4" off and is indexing too far. This is happening when I run a single case through the complete loading cycle. I am a long way from trusting this press to go full AP. So far, the priming portion is spongy and not very solid as the press handle is pushed forward. There is no real "feel" of the primer seating as with the Lee Classic. I will keep plugging away and figure this out too.

I can't believe the poor quality of the Hornady dies. Both the seat/crimp dies I have are garbage. I do not feel like I (or any of us) should have to modify a brand new product to get it to work properly. Yes, we all like to tinker, but this is way past tinker. It is not only us in this thread that have had the problem with the Hornady seat/crimp die, but in reading on the internet, it is a common problem. Which also makes me angry at the Hornady customer service call I made last week and was told that they have never heard of that. I say B.S.! We will see if they reply to my email or not. I will be returning my 3 die set to Cabela's tomorrow and the single seat/crimp die to Midway USA

I hope to get the bugs worked out of the priming issue and be able to take full advantage of this press. I already de-prime off the press because it makes such a mess on the press and I like to wet tumble to get the primer pockets clean. I don't want to have to prime off the press too.

Happy Sunday to y'all and thank you for your interest and help getting this resolved.

Sound like the indexing is off on the press. Follow the instructions in the manual on how to adj them. You want to make a full stroke of the ram each and every time. Set the index at the speed your going to run the ran. Listen very close for double click, this is the detents moving the shell plate the rest of the way. This need to be so only ram is moving the shell plate. Make very small adj on the detents, 1/16 turns at a time. Once the index is correct the misalignment will go away.
 
I have Lee 9mm dies (2 sets) and Hornady dies I bought with my LNL.. (one set of Lee for my LNL, one set for my old Lee 3 hole turret)
I much prefer the either of the Lee resize/deprime dies as they size the brass tighter.
The Hornady is a bit smoother (less effort) but I use the Lee in my LNL.
I don't care for the Hornady expander die, I use a PTX of a Lyman M Die.
Which of the two Hornady seat/crimp dies do you have? (they have two in 9mm) Number1.jpg Number2.jpg

I have the second type and it seems to work ok,
but I like to use the Lee FCD to make sure things fit for match ammo so I do most of the crimp with it.
I bought the Hornady 9mm dies when I purchased my LNL thinking they might be nicer than the Lee dies, but the only thing I use out of the set is the seat crimper,
I don't think it works any better than the Lee seater, but I leave it adjusted for one bullet/load and use the Lee's for everything else.
I like the LNL, great press, but not impressed with Hornady dies at all.
My Hornady resize/deprime die went to back to Hornady because the first one I got wouldn't size the brass tight enough to even work. (poor neck tension)
I was trying to use it when I first got my LNL and couldn't figure out what the bleep I was doing wrong since I had no neck tension.
Two much expansion, bad brass, bad bullets???....->Bad die!
After messing with the press for hours and with lots of :cuss:, I finally tried a Lee sizer and the problem was solved.
(that's when I sent the sizer back to Hornady)
I started with Lee handgun dies and bought them for the other handgun calibers I load.
Not fancy, not expensive, but they work fine.
After the 9mm set of does I bought from Hornady I wouldn't buy another set of dies from them.

Priming
Sounds like you need to adjust the pawls/timing.
When you do use very small movements of the pawls, a litte goes a long way.
Hope you get it straightened out.
I think you will like the press once you get the die issue squared away.
Heck just use your Lee dies (sad the Hornadys aren't better)
 
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@Dudedog Hello!!
I have the second die. It is in the case ready to go back. The old Lee dies work perfect and I will never use the Hornady dies again. I paid good money for this setup and I do not think it is right to have to screw with this like this. If this is how Hornady represents themselves, then I am very disappointed and feel I have been taken advantage of. I would rather pay more money to purchase something that works correctly out of the box. I have been trying to set this up since last Friday afternoon and it is still not right.

Okay, here is a video of the indexing problem



I understand about the pawls, but wouldn't this happen all of the time?
Right now it is every 2nd or 3rd cycle of the ram. It doesn't matter if it is a full lift of the ram or just enough to get the shell plate to move to the next station.
Is this the pawls being off? Why does it happen on the second or third cycle?
 
Howdy, haven't yaked at you in a while:)

Hmmm,
so it appears to index correctly sometimes and sometimes it does not.
Take a marker and mark the cutouts. 1-5
Is it always the same cutout that fails to index correctly?
Maybe a bad shellplate, but your balls might need to be adjusted.

Some users report needing to tap their balls with a hammer.
I haven't had a need to.
I forget what the correct procedure is to hammer your balls.

The balls on the base shell plate that is......;)

I also put a little SLF0 Lubriplate grease on the bottom of the shell plate to reduce friction.
 
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Howdy, haven't yaked at you in a while:)


Maybe a bad shellplate, but your balls might need to be adjusted.

Some users report needing to tap their balls with a hammer.

You made me laugh out loud...
I'm not sure how hammering my balls could affect my press, but I will try it. LOL

I will give it a try. I have removed the shell plate, cleaned and re-greased lightly. Removed and cleaned and sprayed with Ballistol. I will mark the cut outs and see what happens. I will also check my balls and mark the cutouts. That actually makes sense. Maybe the balls are not engaging correctly?
Thanks for replying. Hope to talk more in the future.
 
The balls are only there to hold it in place from moving when at rest and give it a home position.
Put the Ram up and unscrew the left button head screw about 1/16 of a turn.
timing screws.jpg

This will advance the index on the way down. if it still doesn't go far enough then unscrew it another 1/16 turn.

If you feel something catch when putting the handle down then you unscrewed it to far.

Drag you finger on the shell plate to defeat the spring loaded balls in the bottom of the shell plate. When you lift you finger the plate should be either already there or will just snap into place.
 
@Dudedog Hello!!
I have the second die. It is in the case ready to go back. The old Lee dies work perfect and I will never use the Hornady dies again. I paid good money for this setup and I do not think it is right to have to screw with this like this. If this is how Hornady represents themselves, then I am very disappointed and feel I have been taken advantage of. I would rather pay more money to purchase something that works correctly out of the box. I have been trying to set this up since last Friday afternoon and it is still not right.

Okay, here is a video of the indexing problem



I understand about the pawls, but wouldn't this happen all of the time?
Right now it is every 2nd or 3rd cycle of the ram. It doesn't matter if it is a full lift of the ram or just enough to get the shell plate to move to the next station.
Is this the pawls being off? Why does it happen on the second or third cycle?

@Ghost In The Fog,
Rather than trying to understand something that seems quirky, why not just do the pawl adjustment by following the instructions, and judge the results instead of your current operation?
Have you watched this Hornady vid?
It explains a lot about the pawl adjustment.

Same vid different source: I never could find it on their website, so I searched youtube for it.

The only thing I advise you do different is 1/16 turn adjustments rather than 1/8th turns.
Here's that adjustment as explained by Highboy, he tends to drone on so pay attention, and takes 2 additional vids to explain the pawl adjustment :uhoh:.
CAUTION, view this one at the risk of becoming confused/frustrated :what:

do the pawl adjustment, thank me later,
:D
Edited to add CAUTION about Highboy vids
 
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ALRIGHT!!!!
Thank you and thank you!!
Two 1/8th turns counter clockwise on the left pawl and I am a very happy guy.
Removed, cleaned and greased the shell plate balls and detentes and adjusted the pawl.
I have primed and charged 50 cases and measured each charge. The powder measure is throwing between 3.9 and 4.1 and 75% are 4.0- (4.0 is target weight). This is 700X powder which the metering issue is what has ultimately been driving my quest for a better metering system and press a very long time.
I am still not happy with the Hornady dies, but in the end the Lee dies are working perfect.

@Dudedog you were right, gentle finessing of the balls and a quick twist of the pawl and all is great.

Seriously- all you guys are the best.
Thank you.
 
You made me laugh out loud...
I'm not sure how hammering my balls could affect my press, but I will try it. LOL

You sounded frustrated so I worded it in a way I hoped would make you :)

Glad you got it squared away.
Never used 700x but I hear rumors it is not the best metering stuff out there, so + or - .1 doesn't seem bad.

I think you will like the press once you make friends with it.
I added a RCBS lockout die. Money well spent IMO if you have a free station.

https://ultimatereloader.com/2010/09/19/rcbs-lock-out-die-part-i-theory-of-operation/

https://ultimatereloader.com/2010/09/21/rcbs-lock-out-die-part-ii-setup-and-maintenance/
 
Good morning everyone. Time for an update.
I sent the video and email describing my problem to Hornady Friday around 9:30 AM. As of now, I have heard nothing back. If I do, I will post it here.
I do wet tumble and I did try lubing the cases, if the binding was a 10, the case lube reduced it to an 8. Slight difference only.
I backed the die out in increments of 1/4 turn until I got to two full turns out. Any crimp and the binding continued. I looked at modifying the die as suggested but then thought, screw that and reinstalled my Lee dies. Within 20 minutes I had my first loaded test round. The Lee dies work. And work flawlessly!
I am so disappointed in Hornady.
The sizing die is crap. The expander die either has not enough flair and I have to guide the bullet into the seating die by hand or flairs too much that the bullet falls into the case of it's own weight. Seriously, I adjusted in tiny increments and a fraction of a turn was not enough and a fraction more was too much. When I crimped, it was pretty much undetectable on the calipers. If I had no crimp, the bullet easily pushed back into the case with not very much pressure placed on the tip against the bench. I do understand that neck tension not crimp holds the bullet in place, but for whatever reason, this die just did not do it's job.

I picked up the PTX insert for the powder drop and it does work as advertised. At least something does and I was able to get rid of the expander die.
I am sorry I spent the money on the LNL thinking it was better quality then the Lee Classic. Yes, it is all metal and bigger, but that does not always make it better. I chose it over the Lee breech lock or load master because of the hundreds of videos of how they are so finicky and need constant adjustment. I don't know if Dillon is better, but based on this experience, I am out about $500 for something that is no better than what I already had and glad I did not spend the $1,300 on the Dillon.

Now, I am having primer feed issues. When it decides to set a primer it works fine. Most times as I cycle the press handle forward to set a primer the shell plate is of by about 1/4" off and is indexing too far. This is happening when I run a single case through the complete loading cycle. I am a long way from trusting this press to go full AP. So far, the priming portion is spongy and not very solid as the press handle is pushed forward. There is no real "feel" of the primer seating as with the Lee Classic. I will keep plugging away and figure this out too.

I can't believe the poor quality of the Hornady dies. Both the seat/crimp dies I have are garbage. I do not feel like I (or any of us) should have to modify a brand new product to get it to work properly. Yes, we all like to tinker, but this is way past tinker. It is not only us in this thread that have had the problem with the Hornady seat/crimp die, but in reading on the internet, it is a common problem. Which also makes me angry at the Hornady customer service call I made last week and was told that they have never heard of that. I say B.S.! We will see if they reply to my email or not. I will be returning my 3 die set to Cabela's tomorrow and the single seat/crimp die to Midway USA

I hope to get the bugs worked out of the priming issue and be able to take full advantage of this press. I already de-prime off the press because it makes such a mess on the press and I like to wet tumble to get the primer pockets clean. I don't want to have to prime off the press too.

Happy Sunday to y'all and thank you for your interest and help getting this resolved.
Watch Highboy videos on pawl timing and primer set up, you will be good... Hornady will take care of your die issue mate.

Thewelshm
 
UPDATE 4-22-19
The LnL is performing well. The indexing and priming issues are now non-existent.
I called and emailed Hornady the video I posted here. They responded to my email with questions that were clearly stated in the original email. I highlighted my email in my reply to them and I received an email back that they sent me a .355 TC stem with no other info or explanation. They were in no hurry to get it to me, it arrived on Saturday and it is the exact same seating stem I already have in my die. I switched the stems just to be sure and set the seating depth. Again the bullet moved freely in and out of the die. As soon as ANY crimp is applied, it hangs up. I removed the die and put the Double Alpha/Lee seat and crimp die back in. This Double Alpha die works great. As a side note, I ordered the DA die on Monday afternoon and had it in my mailbox on Thursday. They get it.

I am not happy with Hornady customer service.

The only issue I have had so far is that the bullet feed die stopped feeding. When I disassembled it this is what I found.
IMG_0782.jpg IMG_0784.jpg I don't know if the bullet was slightly damaged before putting it in the feeder or if it just got caught up in the collets.
No big deal, reassembled it and it works great.
The switch to the full AP is a big change from the Lee Classic turret and is going to take some time to get used to. I am in no hurry and I will take my time learning the in's and out's of this machine. I hope to become great friends with it and produce mass quantities of high quality ammo.
I enjoy reloading almost as much as unloading. It is a challenge for sure.

I want to say thank you to everyone out there who read this and helped me figure this all out. I couldn't have done it with out you.
THR is the best.
 
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