Can a private seller compete with an FFL on price?

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Are people selling them for those prices, or just listing them for those prices? On our local (statewide) site, there's no transaction recorded online. Typically, the listing might generate a PM exchange between the seller and one or more prospective buyers, and then a follow-up posting listing the item as sold. Does ArmsList work that way?

If people are paying the same price for a private FTF transaction for a gun used as one bought new online, it suggests they are paying extra for not going through the 4473 process. There are flatly illegal reasons for wanting to do this (can't pass a BGC), and not-illegal reasons (want to have one or more firearms that cannot be located through paperwork).
No, I'm saying many people do not buy online, and know nothing about it. I go to Bass Pro Shop, LGS, and other big box stores in the area, and they're selling guns for $100-$150 more than they can be purchased for online, and these stores are usually packed. I see people actually paying these prices with tax on top. So yes, I believe that when these people see a used guns selling for $100 below what they seen them for at a LGS, they think it's a good deal not knowing that they can get the same gun for the same price new online.

Plus, I've personally sold off my used, carried, fired guns for the same price I've purchased them online in a F2F sale. I require a carry permit, voter ID, or military ID card, BOS, and a carry license when I sell.
 
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That's possible, but online sales have become the norm in most other goods. Are gun buyers just uniquely unsophisticated and backwards? Maybe.
 
That's possible, but online sales have become the norm in most other goods. Are gun buyers just uniquely unsophisticated and backwards? Maybe.
Most people aren't gun people like we are, or know that it's possible to buy guns online. But being that I sense you're scepticism, I'll PM you a photo of the sticker prices at gun shops in my area as well as a photo of their foot traffic.
 
Are people selling them for those prices, or just listing them for those prices? On our local (statewide) site, there's no transaction recorded online. Typically, the listing might generate a PM exchange between the seller and one or more prospective buyers, and then a follow-up posting listing the item as sold. Does ArmsList work that way?

If people are paying the same price for a private FTF transaction for a gun used as one bought new online, it suggests they are paying extra for not going through the 4473 process. There are flatly illegal reasons for wanting to do this (can't pass a BGC), and not-illegal reasons (want to have one or more firearms that cannot be located through paperwork).

Speaking only for myself when I sell a firearm FTF, especially at a gun show, I require a state Drivers License and a CWP. I record the name of the buyer and both ID numbers on a bill of sale. That way I am pretty sure that the buyer is legit and the buyer avoids the BATF paperwork. In the event that BATF ever comes to me because a firearm which was sold to me shows up in one of their investigationbs I have the name and ID of the person I sold it to.

As far as "being in the business of selling firearms" I must be a lousy businessman because I rarely ever get back what I have invested in what I sold. :(
 
Most people who buy online, buy online. Most people who buy in stores, buy in stores. I’ve bought milk online, it showed up the next day, as cold as if I had driven a few miles into town to pick it up, and less expensive than buying it in the store. I buy milk a couple times per week, that’s one time out of over a thousand milk purchases I did it online.

The same few miles away, there’s a Cabela’s store. For many years, their website did not charge sales tax on online purchases. I could buy the same product at the same price, less sales tax, delivered free to the store, and have my order ready to pick up when I walked in the door. Even if they pulled it off of their own shelf... Most of the time, I could get the same product from another online retailer cheaper, and if I waited a week or two, I’d find a sale code or free shipping offer to get it straight to my door. But I still walk into Cabela’s once a month or so, and buy some thing or another.

I also buy name brand cheese....
 
When I shipped an M1 Garand to get rebarreled I shipped it in 2 parts. Basice stock with barrel an reciever. Bolt, trigger, spring, rod and gas tube in another. They shipped back same, no ffl because just shipping parts.

I wasn't aware that the USPS gave a hoot about how you shipped your long gun. I tell them it's a rifle/shotgun, no ammo, and off it goes. The last few times they made me fill out a form for a dealer and I told them I wasn't a dealer. They said fill it out anyway so I did. I just left out the FFL # on my end and they were happy. I just think they wanted something for their files. Everyone got happy.:D
 
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From the ATF

A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A); 27 CFR 478.31]

From USPS

Rifles and shotguns may be mailed by a non-FFL owner domestically to a FFL dealer, manufacturer, or importer in any state. These items must be mailed using a class of mail, product, or Extra Service that provides tracking and signature capture at delivery.

Sometimes you have to explain the USPS regs to the USPS employees but eventually the light will come on. If they insist you can't do it ask for the supervisor. Be pleasant and patient. They love pleasant and patient people.
 
People and companies price their guns with various strategies in mind. Some people want the gun to sell ASAP. Some people want to get back what they paid. Some people find something similar online and price based upon that regardless of how realistic that price is. I just looked at my local armlist and the first item was a S&W 15-22 for $380 I bought a new one online 3 months ago for $299 with free shipping. The person selling at $380 probably paid $400 to $450 and thinks $380 is a great deal. My LGS buys used stuff for cheap and sells it for realistic prices so they move stuff relatively quickly. Some shops price everything higher and wait longer for it to sell. My local Scheels prices everything near full MSRP, however you can go in and request that they price match from reputable online vendors and they'll match the price (they tack on a shipping and transfer fee on top of the price match, but you'd pay that either way).
 
As long as a person is not frequently and repetitively buying and reselling with the purpose of making a living, they should be fine whether they're focusing on profit or not when they decide to sell.....

Not exactly --

  • The real issue and risk is that there is no "bright line" between occasional sales and doing business.
  • Nor is profit necessarily the focus. The courts have identified a number of criteria which would need to be considered.
  • So if you're unlucky the jury at your trial will be looking at those criteria and deciding which side of the line you fall on.
  • The legal issues were discussed at some length in this thread.

In any event, this thread really isn't about the "dealing without a license" question, so let's drop the subject.
 
There's only ArmsList in my area which is also like Craigslist for guns. In my area, private sellers are selling their used firearms for around the same price that I can buy it NIB online, but less than the NIB LGS prices.

You must live in a unique area. I frequent Armslist here in Cincinnati and I can always find what I want, in practically new condition, for much less than I can find the same new gun online. There was a brief exception in late 2017 through mid 2018 as new gun prices started falling and it took awhile for the used market to follow suit, but now I can pretty much always count on finding a better price on Armslist again.

There's always those jackasses who think their guns are worth their weight in gold (easily identified because they always add the text (DON'T LOWBALL ME, I KNOW WHAT I'VE GOT AND WHAT IT'S WORTH), but most sellers realize a used gun is worth less than a new one. For example last week I contacted a guy on Armslist that had a LNIB FNX 45 with 3 mags listed for $525, and we settled on $500 even. The guy even showed me his sales receipt, he had just purchased it in November from Cabela's. The best price I could find online was $650.
 
You must live in a unique area. I frequent Armslist here in Cincinnati and I can always find what I want, in practically new condition, for much less than I can find the same new gun online. There was a brief exception in late 2017 through mid 2018 as new gun prices started falling and it took awhile for the used market to follow suit, but now I can pretty much always count on finding a better price on Armslist again.

There's always those jackasses who think their guns are worth their weight in gold (easily identified because they always add the text (DON'T LOWBALL ME, I KNOW WHAT I'VE GOT AND WHAT IT'S WORTH), but most sellers realize a used gun is worth less than a new one. For example last week I contacted a guy on Armslist that had a LNIB FNX 45 with 3 mags listed for $525, and we settled on $500 even. The guy even showed me his sales receipt, he had just purchased it in November from Cabela's. The best price I could find online was $650.

So true. I think I've sold maybe a dozen firearms over the last 15 years and I made a profit on exactly one. I always know about what I paid for one, new or used. If I can get 75% of what I paid I'm happy. If you want to sell them fast you generally have to take a loss. People who buy and sell used on the internet know that. There are some good deals (used) on the internet, you just have to know one when you see it.:D
 
Check out online offers to sell handguns and compare non-licensed sellers with FFL's. Even if the private seller can undercut a dealer on the basic price the FFL has the edge when it comes to shipping. An FFL can mail a handgun by Priority Mail for about $35. A private seller must ship by either UPS or FedEx using next day air so his shipping cost will be more than twice that of the FFL.

Going to a local FFL to have the handgun shipped entails a transfer fee in addition to the mailing cost. The FFL has no incentive to discount his fee since the private seller is competing with him.

It seems the best options for the private seller are word-of-mouth with friends, posting at the gun club or trudging the aisles of the local gun show all day hoping to find a buyer.

Maybe yes, maybe no; all depends on the dealer and your relationship with him.
 
I honestly didn't expect my post to be so controversial. Maybe things are different in other parts of the country, but this is my experience where I've lived which have been gun friendly states.
  1. Can we all agree that internet prices on firearms are better than brick and mortar aka LGS prices?
  2. If you agree with #1, can we agree that even though better prices/deals can be found over the internet, there are still a significant demographic of people who, for one reason or another, will still pay the higher LGS price with tax? That is, unlike us, they do not and some will not buy online.
  3. If you agree with #1 and #2, can we agree that if someone was to get a good deal online for $50-$100+ less, respectively, than what LGS are selling them for, they could pretty much at a later date sell there used in great condition firearm for just about what they paid to the same demographic that does not buy online?
  4. If you agree with #1 - #3, can we agree that from the point of view of the demographic who does not buy online, but who buys in stores, they're still getting the used firearm below the brick and mortar prices? That is, they're buying a firearm below what the prices they seen at LGS, so it's still a deal to them.
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Here I purchased a Taurus PT111 blued for $198 online, and at a later date seen that Buds had the stainless (I prefer stainless slides) on sale for $214. I sold the blued PT111 for $320 which was $10 less than the what others were selling theirs for on ArmsList. I later sold the stainless PT111 for $320 also and used that money to purchase the new to market at that time XD Mod 2 stainless. I still have the XD till this day. Both sold guns sold within 2 or 3 days after listing. The email with the asking price of $290 was ignored being that I had other emails of people willing to pay full price.

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I already owned 2 plain Jane Shields. S&W came out with a $75 rebate. I purchased a L.E. Shield that came with night sights and 3 mags and a Performance Center 45 Shield with the rebate. After the rebate ended, I sold both my old Shields for around $330 each. This was before there was a 2.0 model, and locally Shields were going for $400 at LGS. Again, I priced mine below the lowest listed price on ArmsList, and my inbox blew up...

I've been doing this for years, and I rarely lose money selling off firearms. I break even or close to it, or make money just as long as I buy firearms I like online when there's a rebate or when I can find a decent sale, and sell f2f. In
any event, selling f2f will usually always net the most money. YMMV.

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Sold my used Sig P238 with one mag, and sold the other extended mag on Ebay for $25. Sold the Sig within a week. Used the money I got from selling my used 380 to by a NIB P938 online for $500.
 
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Just wanted to thank you folks who responded to this. I was so disturbed by the initial post that I simply didn't know where to begin. Thanks again!
 
If the buyer and seller are happy, it was a good deal.

If as a seller you don’t want to deal with it at all, make the stipulation that it must be a face to face transaction (FTF).

You could also adjust your price to include shipping and even FFL fees if you don’t want to mess with it.

If your “deal” isn’t a good one or not competitive, no one will buy what you are selling.
 
I honestly didn't expect my post to be so controversial. Maybe things are different in other parts of the country, but this is my experience where I've lived which have been gun friendly states.
  1. Can we all agree that internet prices on firearms are better than brick and mortar aka LGS prices?
  2. If you agree with #1, can we agree that even though better prices/deals can be found over the internet, there are still a significant demographic of people who, for one reason or another, will still pay the higher LGS price with tax? That is, unlike us, they do not and some will not buy online.
  3. If you agree with #1 and #2, can we agree that if someone was to get a good deal online for $50-$100+ less, respectively, than what LGS are selling them for, they could pretty much at a later date sell there used in great condition firearm for just about what they paid to the same demographic that does not buy online?
  4. If you agree with #1 - #3, can we agree that from the point of view of the demographic who does not buy online, but who buys in stores, they're still getting the used firearm below the brick and mortar prices? That is, they're buying a firearm below what the prices they seen at LGS, so it's still a deal to them.

I'd agree with all your assumptions. Maybe you have a higher number of people in your area that just prefer to pay a little more to not go through an FFL when buying a gun?

I too haven't ever lost money on a sale, I break even or come out a little ahead, especially if I do a trade. But if I list a gun even slightly too high I'll get blasted with emails showing where they can buy that same gun new for just a few dollars more. Then again, I tend to buy and sell guns with steel frames and wood stocks that don't always have those killer new priced deals with rebates, so I know there's exceptions. When I bought my M&P 15 Sport you couldn't find a used AR for close to the prices of the new ones online, and that's pretty much still true right now for those entry level AR's.
 
Styk, what's the cost of your time and labor?

If I understand what you're getting at it's the idea of buying a new gun online at a price cheaper than the same new gun gun sold through a local gunatorium. The idea being to make a small profit. A good many folks do this intentionally or not. It's no different than seeing a gun at a good price, buying it and then reselling it as a used gun and making a small profit (or larger in some cases) off the sale. Which is normal. This is a way to make some extra scratch for a project.

It's not a particularly good business model for a number of reasons. But it's common among hobbyists.

Shipping costs were discussed. The buyer pays the shipping costs. Either as a straight up cost or added into the cost of the gun. Shipping costs should not cut into the profit.
 
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