Reliability Testing and Bang for Buck

I shoot several hundred rounds of my hand loads, then a box or two of my carry ammunition. Any gun worth a (expletive deleted) should handle that. I've never been one to believe in having to "breaking in" a semi auto. It should work from the git go.

Then too, I've never been one to believe in "match grade" guns with super tight slides or barrels. For me these are defensive weapons, not toys to play games with. YMMV!

Dave

2000 round challenge

I've personally never considered a 200-500 round period to try out a new pistol to be unreasonable. Call it break-in if you must, but I can't remember a single semi-automatic that has passed through my hands that needed to be broken-in. They've all worked like they're supposed to right out of the gate with a quick cleaning and proper lubrication. This to include a pair of Colt 1911s that now reside in my safe.

I'm not 100% sure I understand the reluctance to go ahead and push rounds through a firearm. In the greater scheme of things, a couple hundred rounds of factory FMJ will cost $40-60 for a common service caliber, and I'd be satisfied buying 2 of those silly little 25-round boxes of JHPs. Use one to make sure the gun runs and then the other to load into your magazines. Compared to the cost of a new pistol and magazines, this isn't a huge additional burden.

And to continue on, have I mentioned that I think 25-round boxes of service caliber handgun ammo are silly? I do wish 50-round boxes of JHP were more common. Yes, I do have a few 50-round boxes of Remington Golden Sabers on hand, in .45 ACP, 9mm Luger and .357 Magnum, as well as a couple of boxes of Winchester Ranger 127gr +P+ 9mm Luger ammo. But I scarfed those up when I stumbled on them locally and I haven't seen more in a while.

If a gun is going to cause problems it's going to do it within a few rounds. I haven't noted any difference in reliability using FMJ vs HP loads using any gun made since the 1970's I load all magazines to capacity with fmj and fire them. Then one mag with the HP ammo I'm carrying.

If a gun causes problems within that time frame and if I determine it is a defective magazine that magazine is replaced. If it is the gun it goes down the road. I'm not throwing good money after bad shooing more ammo through it trying to "break it in". Either it works out of the box for me or it's gone, too many guns out there that do. Even if I sent it back to be repaired I wouldn't ever trust it. I've never had a gun make it through about the 1st 50 rounds of FMJ ever start giving problems later unless it could be traced to defective ammo.

94045 said:

Great idea but gets expensive if your talking $1.25 a round carry ammo.

Also something like a Ruger LCP might be used up at that point.

Does running 150 Rd of FMJ really tell you more than 50 Rd Carry Ammo about the Reliability with Carry Ammo ?

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No, it doesn't. It just tells you your pistol can run 150 rounds of FMJ reliably (or not). Case in point: my .38 Super 1911 feeds, fires and ejects any generic 130gr FMJ .38 Super ammo like it was made for it, which it was. But it absolutely chokes on SIG V-Crown JHP. And it wouldn't choke reliably either (see what I did there? ) . It would run a magazine or 2 just fine, then throw me 2 or 3 failures to feed in one magazine. It turned out to be a neck-tension problem in the ammo; the violence of the feeding path was causing severe setback in the rounds that failed to feed. But obviously I wouldn't have found the issue by deciding to try a magazine worth and call it good.

As for something like an LCP, don't overthink it. Run a couple boxes of good FMJ ammo through it, clean it up, and then load it with some more good FMJ. I wouldn't count on a .380 ACP JHP to expand and penetrate far enough out of that little pistol, or even a Glock 42, etc.

What do you mean by reliability testing? If this is your carry gun you need to know where POA/POI is with your carry ammo and then regularly shoot your carry ammo.

94045 said:

Great idea but gets expensive if your talking $1.25 a round carry ammo.

Also something like a Ruger LCP might be used up at that point.

Does running 150 Rd of FMJ really tell you more than 50 Rd Carry Ammo about the Reliability with Carry Ammo ?

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Do you even know what a 2000 round challenge is?

kidneyboy said:

What do you mean by reliability testing? If this is your carry gun you need to know where POA/POI is with your carry ammo and then regularly shoot your carry ammo.

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Agree with this. I try to shoot at least 50rds every month, but I can do on my property and don’t have to go to a range which is a huge benefit.

I'm generally not too concerned with those ammo costs, especially at the numbers you've listed.

Shooting even just .45 Auto, I'd expect to pay .40 - .50 cents per round for ball ammo, and even in 9mm, you could spend $1.50 per round for defensive ammo. Heck, you bought the gun to shoot, so ammo costs are going to be figured into the picture, just like buying gas is to owning a car.

This doesn't even count your search for the "perfect" holster, which could be at least a half dozen different options as you try to decide what works best, IWB, OWB, AIWB, pocket, shoulder, leather, kydex, and these typically will cost somewhere between $50 and $100+.

Don't forget your gun probably cost $500 or more, and you may go through several guns trying to find the gun that you like best.

I recall somebody years ago commenting about shooting as an "adrenaline sport" which it is. However, if you compare it to other "adrenaline sports", like motorcycling racing, speed boating, car racing, snowmobiling, sky diving, etc., shooting is really one of less expensive ways to participate.

Interesting question, and one I have been thinking about since my carry gun has started to choke on the very expensive ammo I have been using for years. The ammo I just spent $500 to buy a case of. Every time I make a repair I have to try it out again with more expensive ammo. It only chokes on the one type of ammo, every other brand is 100%. At some point it’s just going to be cheaper to replace the gun than keep shooting $30/box ammo in a futile attempt to see if it’s reliable. Or spend an equivalent amount to buy a different variety of expensive defensive ammo.

Massacre Ayoob wrote about shooting at least 200 rounds of your carry ammo without malfunction before you should consider it trustworthy in your gun. Most premium defensive ammo is selling for close to $0.75/round if you are buying 20 round boxes, so that’s $150 in testing ammo. Imagine when your gun jams on round 199 and you have to start over with a different brand of ammo

Kinda makes you appreciate revolvers again.

kidneyboy said:

What do you mean by reliability testing? If this is your carry gun you need to know where POA/POI is with your carry ammo and then regularly shoot your carry ammo.

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POA/POI is not going to vary enough to be meaningful at self defense distances. This thread a perfect example of way over thinking this. When you get a new gun shoot it. Shoot it will the a few different types of ammo and make sure it is functioning properly and that you are familiar with its manual of arms. There is no set number to "proove" your gun will function 100%. Just because you have 2,000 perfect rounds down range does not mean that round 2001 is not going to fail.

You need to shoot enough of you chosen carry load because some guns don't like certain bullet profiles but again there is no magic number. Guys like Ayoob love to make up "rules" so they can sell you books, training, videos etc... They also help feed the industry in general. Nothing wrong with that but it does not mean you have to follow those rules.

The best "testing" you can do with you new carry gun IMHO is malfunction drills. There is not way to ensure that any mechanical device is going to work 100% of the time. Instead of testing in some arbitrary fashion for an illusion of perfection learn to run the gun. Learn to clear a malfunction quickly and effectively. That is a much better use of your time than trying to figure out the magic number of bullets to shoot to achieve 100% reliability. I will end this post with a video to drive home the point.

When you discover your carry gun has a 4/20 malfunction rate with your carry ammo, maybe malfunction drills aren’t your best option. Maybe your best option is to start looking for a different gun or different ammo. Or at least a good gunsmith.

Autoloaders, especially 1911's, can puke on just about anything. That's why the military runs those 10,000 rd torture tests. I can't afford to run a 10K test with my carry ammo or even a 1K test, so I carry a revolver. Even if one pistol will run 10K without a malf that doesn't mean another one of the same model will also run 10K or even 100.

If you carry a pistol you would be wise to carry one that has never puked on 500 rds of whatever it is that you carry in it. You be the judge of how much you can spend on ammo and how much your life is worth.

CoalTrain49 said:

Autoloaders, especially 1911's, can puke on just about anything. That's why the military runs those 10,000 rd torture tests. I can't afford to run a 10K test with my carry ammo or even a 1K test, so I carry a revolver. Even if one pistol will run 10K without a malf that doesn't mean another one of the same model will also run 10K or even 100.

If you carry a pistol you would be wise to carry one that has never puked on 500 rds of whatever it is that you carry in it. You be the judge of how much you can spend on ammo and how much your life is worth.

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So much hyperbole in this thread. I always love when the revolver guys chime in like a revolver has never failed. There are no guarantees in life and one should prepare for that. Shooting 50 rounds of your carry ammo or 5000 rounds of your carry ammo is not going to change that. Test any defensive gun with the ammo you will be carrying. Look to achieve as close to 100% as you can and then train to clear a malfunction. All the what is your life worth is a red herring leading to a strawman.

Elkins45 said:

Interesting question, and one I have been thinking about since my carry gun has started to choke on the very expensive ammo I have been using for years. The ammo I just spent $500 to buy a case of. Every time I make a repair I have to try it out again with more expensive ammo. It only chokes on the one type of ammo, every other brand is 100%. At some point it’s just going to be cheaper to replace the gun than keep shooting $30/box ammo in a futile attempt to see if it’s reliable. Or spend an equivalent amount to buy a different variety of expensive defensive ammo.

Massacre Ayoob wrote about shooting at least 200 rounds of your carry ammo without malfunction before you should consider it trustworthy in your gun. Most premium defensive ammo is selling for close to $0.75/round if you are buying 20 round boxes, so that’s $150 in testing ammo. Imagine when your gun jams on round 199 and you have to start over with a different brand of ammo

Kinda makes you appreciate revolvers again.

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Elkins45 said:

When you discover your carry gun has a 4/20 malfunction rate with your carry ammo, maybe malfunction drills aren’t your best option. Maybe your best option is to start looking for a different gun or different ammo. Or at least a good gunsmith.

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@Elkins45 I would trade that ammo to someone else whose gun runs well with it. It could be your gun is out of spec or that the ammo has changed from the past runs that the tolerances are stacking and it is not longer suitable. Lots of good reliable bullet designs are out there. Swap the ammo out and get something different. I am willing to bet the gun is out of spec.

I shot 500 rounds of Speer Gold dots through my Glock 19 before even considering buying other ammo to use for practice. In my lifetime that I’ll carry that gun for, the price to ensure it liked that round was worth it to me.

Start reloading.

9mm practice rounds $5/100
9mm carry rounds $26/100

Doc7 said:

I shot 500 rounds of Speer Gold dots through my Glock 19 before even considering buying other ammo to use for practice. In my lifetime that I’ll carry that gun for, the price to ensure it liked that round was worth it to me.

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I again have to ask how does this guarantee that the gun is going to work on round 1000?

WVsig said:

I again have to ask how does this guarantee that the gun is going to work on round 1000?

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There is no guarantee of anything. Anything can fail
I think what he means is that 500 rounds of a certain ammo without a problem, especially from the same lot number, reduces the risk of an ammo related issue to near zero. Not saying there couldn’t be other problems

I must be a lightweight. I usually run 100 or more rounds of whatever full metal jacket rounds I have laying around. Then a couple of magazines of the JHP ammunition I plan on carrying. If I have some different JHP ammunition around from another manufacturer I will run it too.

I usually fire a mag or two of each type of ammo I have around the house to see that it works. How do you know after shooting 1000 rounds it won't fail at 1001?

500-1000 rounds through an LCP? After I got back from the orthopedic surgeon I'd give up shooting. lol

WVsig said:

So much hyperbole in this thread. I always love when the revolver guys chime in like a revolver has never failed. There are no guarantees in life and one should prepare for that. Shooting 50 rounds of your carry ammo or 5000 rounds of your carry ammo is not going to change that. Test any defensive gun with the ammo you will be carrying. Look to achieve as close to 100% as you can and then train to clear a malfunction. All the what is your life worth is a red herring leading to a strawman.

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I wouldn't feel very confident that a 50 rd reliability test is going to insure that I won't have a malfunction (failure to feed or failure to eject) in 100 rds. I have a USGI carbine that has been rebuilt buy me and it might make it thru 3 mags but it very seldom will make it thru 6 mags without a malfunction. Yes, I know how to clear it, I could probably do it in my sleep. I purchased the rifle for HD and decided that it wasn't reliable. I then purchased a Ruger carbine that hasn't puked in at least 500 rounds. That is now my HD carbine.

No reason to get into a revolver v auto debate so I'll back away from that one.

If you feel confident with your carry ammo with 50 for 50 (100%) then full speed ahead captain. I'm sure you are in the majority there. Your odds are pretty good, 50 to 1.