Any guys familiar with the 9mm Major, being pushed by Taran Tactical

That sort of thing and the resultant case blowouts were what caused. 38 Super to become popular in IPSC.

Maybe the cases are insanely thick... which jacks the chamber pressures even higher...

I load major 9 to open. Light(er) bullets with large chargers of slow(er) powder is what makes the compensators work best.

That said, I am not familiar with what you are addressing.

In any case the 38 super was popular before USPSA allowed major 9, its the newer kid on the block.

9 Major is a wildcat cartridge using 9mm Luger cases to make Major power factor for IPSC and USPSA competitions. It is not for the faint of heart, and is ONLY safe in guns designed to handle 9 Major ammo.

Some information here:

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/7/27/reloading-tips-for-9-major/

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2018/1/9/how-to-use-9-major-in-a-short-barrel/

I shot with some guys that thought they were good. Basically cocky hobbyists that were shooting 9mm major. The primers on their fired cases were backed out and had significant primer drag (from a cz75).

Im sure it can be done but its basically an overloaded 9mm

As others have noted, 9mm Major is common in USPSA/IPSC. It is shot out of big, heavy race guns with compensators on them. It is attractive in that context because it affords the same scoring value as 38 super while using cheaper brass.

Here is a picture of the gun I'm shooting them from:



People are generally not using heavy bullets for this, as the compensator needs gas to work it. Lighter bullets and larger charges of powder do that. Heavier bullets don't.

If you don't have a purpose-built race gun, do not fool with 9mm Major. Do not shoot it out of a regular service-type pistol. Don't put jet fuel in your Honda Accord, either.

Seems like a lot of misinformation, “major 9” is just 9mm ammunition that meets or exceeds 165 powerfactor. There is “book” data that will make “major” powerfactor, so it doesn’t always have to be “off the chart” loads to get there.

Like vihavuori’s 147 data for example, using 3N38 their starting load is 172 PF, out of a 4” barrel.



https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading-data/handgun-reloading/?cartridge=89

Is this stuff equivalent to some of the high pressure Russian 9mm variants?

jmorris said:

Seems like a lot of misinformation, “major 9” is just 9mm ammunition that meets or exceeds 165 powerfactor. There is “book” data that will make “major” powerfactor, so it doesn’t always have to be “off the chart” loads to get there.

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I mean, that's technically true, but since most people trying to "make major" are trying to do so to satisfy some ruleset that gives an advantage to "major" PF (a creation of the ruleset), they're generally going to do what makes sense for that particular game. In USPSA, there is very little reason to use heavy bullets in the only division where 9mm is allowed to score major (open).

Looking at the survey results from the 2018 Nationals, 77% of open shooters were using 124 or 125 grain bullets. 13% were using 115 grain bullets. 4% were using 147 grain bullets. So heavy bullet 9mm Major does exist, but it is not generally what anyone is talking about, nor is it particularly useful.

I agree, my shorty open pistol feels better with 115’s and as above there is more gas to work the comp&popple holes.

The last post was more directed at the OP and other kaboom/wildcat comments.

george burns said:

I can't find too much info on it other than it seems to be a 9mm luger with more powder and a less decompressed bullet in the case. They swear it is the cat's pyjamas. Sounds dangerous loading up with 150+ grain rounds

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Why I linked the load data on bullets that are pretty darn close to 150’s and the starting load is well above major PF.

I don't recall ever getting the claimed velocity from any Vihtavuori load.
It's good powder but the data is optimistic.

Jim Watson said:

I don't recall ever getting the claimed velocity from any Vihtavuori load.
It's good powder but the data is optimistic.

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I can’t speak for the 3N38 load data but 3.2gn of N320 (Titegroup as well) with a bit faster plated or coated 147 bullet (vs jacketed) is a fairly well known “minor” load and the above data would support that. It is worth noting that some gun games allow PF to be tested out of the allowable maximum barrel length vs the pistol one is actually using. So the 4” data above might even be a bit slow for them.

ATLDave said:

If you don't have a purpose-built race gun, do not fool with 9mm Major. Do not shoot it out of a regular service-type pistol. Don't put jet fuel in your Honda Accord, either.

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No, jet fuel is basically kerosine, bad for high compression engines in cars.

Speedo66 said:

No, jet fuel is basically kerosine, bad for high compression engines in cars.

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Could you put Jet A in your 6.5 Liter GM Diesel Suburban though?

Or Av (aviation) gas (100 LL) in your Accord?

Just to stir the pot...

What is that fancy looking rig, ATLDave? You got me shopping for race guns!

Mauser lover said:

What is that fancy looking rig, ATLDave? You got me shopping for race guns!

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It's a Tanfoglio Limited with a different barrel (the original is the one below the gun in the photo) and a Kneeling Atlas compensator. The sight is a C-More on a Double Alpha mount. Henning magwell, grips, short-reach flat trigger. EGW hammer and sear. I had it built by Jim Jones, a gunsmith in Virginia. Feel free to shoot me a PM if you want more details about it.

Tanfoglio makes off-the-shelf open-division race guns (their Gold Team is one of their open-division models), but most of them come with a lot of popple holes in the barrel before the compensator. Helps them run very flat, but requires even more powder to make major PF. Since we're talking above-book loads, I wanted to keep as much pressure-retaining barrel as possible and not have to load quite as high. That requires a big, long compensator to hold the gun flat - and the Kneeling Atlas comp does that. And since I've shot other Tanfoglios in competition for several years, and generally know how they work/how to keep them running, have a big stash of spare parts, etc., I was interested in staying with that basic "platform." That's the story on the why of that gun.

ETA: For anyone who hasn't had the chance, I highly recommend the experience of shooting a USPSA/IPSC open-division-type gun. It is a trippy experience to have a pistol make a very loud noise and smack straight back into the hand pretty firmly, but not have to fight to control the muzzle rise.

The "blam" and the gun trying to move around on you are so closely intertwined in all your other shooting experience* that it is startling when you shoot something that offers such a mismatch between them. It's like picking up a big box full of nothing by styrofoam peanuts or biting into an apple that tastes like a strawberry.

*.22's aren't loud and don't flip much, regular 9mm is louder and requires a decent grip to keep it from flipping, magnum revolver rounds are loud and are going to flip no matter what you do, etc.

Seeing as it seems to be being used in 1911 variants, what advantage does it offer over 38 Super?

Hasaf said:

Seeing as it seems to be being used in 1911 variants, what advantage does it offer over 38 Super?

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Cheaper brass. That's it. That's the whole list of reasons.

Most of us who shoot USPSA/IPSC have more or less unlimited access to free or virtually free 9mm brass. It's just lying around at matches and the places we practice in great gobs. So there's no reason to try to scrupulously hang on to our particular 9mm brass. In fact, 9mm major is so hard on brass that you really don't want more than 2-3 firings at that level on the brass... it stops case gauging and/or primer pockets get loose. So you just shoot it and leave it. And pick up some nice unstressed brass that someone shooting production or carry optics left on the ground.

If you're running 38 super, though, you've got to buy boxes of Starline or other new brass and try to salvage it. Lots of time pecking around at the end of matches or between shooters.

In every other respect, in a gun format that will accept a 38 super length case (which includes 1911/2011's and Tanfoglios), the 38 super is easier to get to run reliably, can feed more gas to the compensator, and doesn't necessarily have to go beyond book to reach major (depends on the particular gun). So if you had infinite money and didn't mind leaving dimes lying on the ground by the hundreds, you'd go 38 super.

Mauser lover said:

Could you put Jet A in your 6.5 Liter GM Diesel Suburban though?

Or Av (aviation) gas (100 LL) in your Accord?

Just to stir the pot...

What is that fancy looking rig, ATLDave? You got me shopping for race guns!

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Only if you want to destroy your diesel fuel pump, not great at lubricating, they will run fine on heating oil though. We did have diesel multi fuel trucks in the Army that could run on it. If you don't mind contaminating your catalytic converter with a little lead, avgas would run fine in your Accord. Great for lawn equipment, doesn't gum up over the off season or destroy hoses since it doesn't contain alcohol.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programing.

If you don't mind contaminating your catalytic converter with a little lead, avgas would run fine in your Accord.

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Your O2 sensors won’t like it much.

Who needs O2 sensors anyway...

So do the off-the-shelf Tanfoglio competition guns (and other race guns) come set up to run 9 Major? Or are they set up to run 9 NATO (for lack of a better name) and they CAN run 9 Major, or do you have to put different springs/etc in them to get them to run?

I'm guessing that the normal service pistols really should have some heftier springs added if someone were to shoot 9 Major? Or some extra mass added to the slide? I'm not sure what effect the coned barrel would have on the "oomph" of the ammo, it's mainly for accuracy, right?

I think the real key to making 9mm Major safe-ish is the compensator. The compensator dramatically reduces the violence of the slide reciprocating. Here's a little illustrative story:

I shot the same basic gun (a Tanfo' Limited) in a different caliber, with iron sights, and without a compensator (that's the key part). Making ~170 PF (power factor is just a momentum calculation - bullet weight times velocity divided by 1000), I use a 12 or 14lb spring. With this gun and the compensator, 9mm book-max ammo trickles out of the gun with a 6 pound spring. My 170 PF stuff is being used with a 10 pound spring right now, but, as the gun breaks in, I need to experiment with a 9 and an 8. I'm getting a little too much dip when the slide slams closed with the 10lb spring. I am pretty confident that my non-comped gun's spring would probably not let the action cycle completely.

Springs are not what make open guns tolerate 9mm Major, and I don't think any spring setup would make me comfortable firing 9mm Major* rounds out of, say, my S&W M&P. Nor is it slide mass - most open guns have some kind of slide-lightening cuts (and popple holes blasting up through them). They depend on a tight lockup and a comp that is working to slow the slide.

Open guns really are different animals. They're neat!

* Meaning the race-gun fuel stuff... I guess if someone is making 165 PF by squishing a super heavy bullet in a 9mm case and staying under SAAMI +P limits, that would be fine.

ATLDave said:

Cheaper brass. That's it. That's the whole list of reasons.

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Winner winner chicken dinner.