Is 28-gauge worth a look?

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I coach SCTP High School, and coached 4-H, and George P. knows a lot more about it than I do. We've been there. Your method works out in the back 40, and yes can also be valuable. I got my start doing it your way, and was lucky to have the best wingshot I've ever known teach me. (Not my Dad, his best friend.) Re-read George P.'s post, you'll find it's closer to your method than you realize. I however would never have been able to break 25 on the Trap range without a very good Trap coach coaching me on an actual Trap range. (And I shot my first 25 from 22 yards.)
Sure, no doubt about it. You have to learn trap at a real trap range with real trap guns if you can swing it.

First you have get some one to come to a trap range and even before that they have to WANT to learn to shoot trap. Even before that they have to WANT to learn to shoot a shotgun. That is my job. I PREFER teaching people who WANT TO LEARN ABOUT SHOTGUNS. I want them to LEARN they can shoot shotguns. Unfortunately way too often I have to first UNTEACH them every thing their macho man already taught them. Most times it is a husband, or boyfriend or sometimes a father who has taught them it hurts, you miss way more than you can hit anything, and you spend most of your time watching someone else break them and then you miss one and they take the gun. Eventually they both give up. Compared to that, someone who has never touched one is a breeze to teach.

My goal for beginners is they learn to like it, shotguns are fun, they can do it all safely and successfully, they can clean one, take it apart, put it together, handle it safely alone in the field, at home or on a standard shotgun range AND HAVE FUN DOING IT ALL. They leave WANTING TO DO IT MORE and wanting to "try one of those trap ranges..."

I don't train Olympic trap or skeet shooters and I don't want to. They already know it all, they don't need me.

Dink Kingen taught me to shoot trap in the afternoons one summer at Kingen's club near Indianapolis.
 
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I'd never take a fresh beginner who has never even handled a shotgun out to the shoot from the standard positions on a trap of skeet field. That is nothing but a recipe for failure and giving them a beating with a 12 gauge so an amateur instructor can show off how good they are to a beginner.

I don't see much difference between walking up behind the trap at the range and doing the same right here from my trap. I can duplicate every shot you mentioned and then some right here from my own trap and we can move as quickly or slowly as a student prefers.

Nothing builds confidence faster and makes a student want to advance faster that blowing a dozen nice fat easy "ducks" out of the sky. First it is the big grin, then this isn't as hard as I thought, and we are off, what next?

We'll work our way around the clock until they miss a few and wind up the day with a few from the 20 gauge at the last station they shot the 410 from. Any one in the class that doesn't walk out grinning can have their money back for the whole day clays and shells included.

If you don't want to believe it the don't. I don't care.

Who said anything about using a 12 gauge? A 28 has 50% more pellets than a 410, greatly increasing the odds of success. Station 7 low house would be the same as standing next to your backyard thrower, but with better quality targets. Having them stand right behind the trap house would also be about as close to your backyard thrower, again - with better targets. A 28 is about as perfect a bore to start with - especially on the larger 20 gauge frame. I own a Savage Fox BSE, the 311s upscale cousin, it is heavy, even in 20, poorly designed and built; has a HORRIBLE trigger.
 
Jack, what do you think I did in 4-H? Took people who had never shot a shotgun before, but wanted to try, and usually successfully taught them to shoot. Quite often they showed up with Dad's Duck gun, usually way too large and always 12 ga., which is why I bought the Tri-Star 20 ga Raptor. I even had a few Dad's 'insist' on Jr. using their duck gun when I would suggest the kid start with our 20 ga. . I would ask them if they were trying to ruin the experience for Jr., or was there some other reason-they'd usually stammer "That's the gun I learned on!" and go on about how great a duck hunter they are. Yeah, sure. However, I will have to agree with George P., a .410, even standing next to the trap, is handicapping the new shooter more than is necessary. And I agree with him that there are better .410 SxS's out there. (I'd go with an 1100 semi-auto in .410 if I had one.)
I've had kids that were 'taught by Dad' come out and shoot horribly, doing everything wrong. The degree of success of teaching them was directly related to whether they listened to me or not. I know all about unteaching bad habits. I even had one gal whose dad was a fellow HS coach who was holding the gun way up and 'shooting the box", very unsuccessfully. I told her to hold down towards the traphouse and focus out above it. She turned and sneeringly answered "I shoot the way my Dad taught me!" Her dad had a 16 average. (at 16 yards!) o_O Hers was no better.
You're talking baby steps; you gotta start somewhere, but you're having them doing it in ill-fitting running shoes. I don't train Olympic Trap shooters (and would be even more ill- equipped to teach Olympic level Skeet shooters) either, but will agree with George P again, if a 28 is too much for them, shotgunning is probably not for them.
 
Who said anything about using a 12 gauge? A 28 has 50% more pellets than a 410, greatly increasing the odds of success. Station 7 low house would be the same as standing next to your backyard thrower, but with better quality targets. Having them stand right behind the trap house would also be about as close to your backyard thrower, again - with better targets. A 28 is about as perfect a bore to start with - especially on the larger 20 gauge frame. I own a Savage Fox BSE, the 311s upscale cousin, it is heavy, even in 20, poorly designed and built; has a HORRIBLE trigger.
My mistake. meh, I hate crow. You are correct sir on the number of pellets in each.

Have a great day and best of luck to ya.
 
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Station 7 low house would be the same as standing next to your backyard thrower, but with better quality targets. Having them stand right behind the trap house would also be about as close to your backyard thrower, again - with better targets.

As I already said, my first childhood shot gun experience was with my Dad's 28 gauge side by side. For the first time out shooting clay targets, the range officer at the trap range we shot at let me set up just behind the trap house. It was a good experience.

When my wife started shooting skeet, she shot low 7 alot at first before moving on to high 7 and then station 1. Another help for her was that the range we shot at had a female instructor. A much better start for her than letting me try to instruct her. My wife would take a lesson with the instructor on one skeet field while I shot a full round on another field.
 
Jack, what do you think I did in 4-H? Took people who had never shot a shotgun before, but wanted to try, and usually successfully taught them to shoot. Quite often they showed up with Dad's Duck gun, usually way too large and always 12 ga., which is why I bought the Tri-Star 20 ga Raptor. I even had a few Dad's 'insist' on Jr. using their duck gun when I would suggest the kid start with our 20 ga. . I would ask them if they were trying to ruin the experience for Jr., or was there some other reason-they'd usually stammer "That's the gun I learned on!" and go on about how great a duck hunter they are. Yeah, sure. However, I will have to agree with George P., a .410, even standing next to the trap, is handicapping the new shooter more than is necessary. And I agree with him that there are better .410 SxS's out there. (I'd go with an 1100 semi-auto in .410 if I had one.)
I've had kids that were 'taught by Dad' come out and shoot horribly, doing everything wrong. The degree of success of teaching them was directly related to whether they listened to me or not. I know all about unteaching bad habits. I even had one gal whose dad was a fellow HS coach who was holding the gun way up and 'shooting the box", very unsuccessfully. I told her to hold down towards the traphouse and focus out above it. She turned and sneeringly answered "I shoot the way my Dad taught me!" Her dad had a 16 average. (at 16 yards!) o_O Hers was no better.
You're talking baby steps; you gotta start somewhere, but you're having them doing it in ill-fitting running shoes. I don't train Olympic Trap shooters (and would be even more ill- equipped to teach Olympic level Skeet shooters) either, but will agree with George P again, if a 28 is too much for them, shotgunning is probably not for them.

Some how I think we are going past each other's point here. I THINK we agree on a lot more than we disagree and I hardly DISAGREE with anything you said. I don't even have a clue who George P is. I don't even pay attention to most posters screen names, I don't care. I read what they say and either care or don't about what they have to say.

Up until the last post or so where I quoted somebody, I think all my posts were really aimed toward helping the OP rather than commenting on what any one else said.

I got no problem with a 28 gauge. I see it and the 410 essentially as the same thing. I don't own one so I'm just reading stats and looking at the AA Boxes of shells by happenstance when I buy my own. They both have a 1/2 ounce of shot in them. I load a lot of 1/2 ounce in my 20 gauge shells. They are super light and easy to handle. If I didn't already own what I own, I might even buy a 28 gauge. I am NOT recommending any one go out and deliberately buy a 410 for what the OP has asked about, I merely related several years of my own experience with 410's as an assurance that if I can do this with 410s, there is no doubt the same or better can be accomplished using the 28 gauge he was asking about, or more.

I believe my recommendation for what the OP wants to accomplish, after relating my own experience and reasoning for the recommendation, was a 20 gauge. NOT a 410 or a 28.

The point of the smaller guns is NOT that other guns are too much, it is that the smaller guns are MORE FUN. My philosophy of getting people involved is it must be fun. Failure is not fun. To learn the sport is only accomplished by the successful shots. I don't believe anything is learned by a miss. The more times they see the clay breaking, I believe the more the proper use of the gun is learned. It is the same reason people learn when someone stands behind them and helps them by calling where the shot is going rather than just banging away and wondering why they missed. This one big reason why people learn faster with a coach, on a range, than they do by their self or in the "back 40" with their buddies. A coach/instructor is helping them, not trying to beat them.

Students and shooters who miss all the time, quit. The same who feel a lot of success, keep shooting, shoot more, and keep getting better. Because they WANT to.
 
Some how I think we are going past each other's point here. I THINK we agree on a lot more than we disagree and I hardly DISAGREE with anything you said. I don't even have a clue who George P is. I don't even pay attention to most posters screen names, I don't care. I read what they say and either care or don't about what they have to say.

Up until the last post or so where I quoted somebody, I think all my posts were really aimed toward helping the OP rather than commenting on what any one else said.

I got no problem with a 28 gauge. I see it and the 410 essentially as the same thing. I don't own one so I'm just reading stats and looking at the AA Boxes of shells by happenstance when I buy my own. They both have a 1/2 ounce of shot in them. I load a lot of 1/2 ounce in my 20 gauge shells. They are super light and easy to handle. If I didn't already own what I own, I might even buy a 28 gauge. I am NOT recommending any one go out and deliberately buy a 410 for what the OP has asked about, I merely related several years of my own experience with 410's as an assurance that if I can do this with 410s, there is no doubt the same or better can be accomplished using the 28 gauge he was asking about, or more.

I believe my recommendation for what the OP wants to accomplish, after relating my own experience and reasoning for the recommendation, was a 20 gauge. NOT a 410 or a 28.

The point of the smaller guns is NOT that other guns are too much, it is that the smaller guns are MORE FUN. My philosophy of getting people involved is it must be fun. Failure is not fun. To learn the sport is only accomplished by the successful shots. I don't believe anything is learned by a miss. The more times they see the clay breaking, I believe the more the proper use of the gun is learned. It is the same reason people learn when someone stands behind them and helps them by calling where the shot is going rather than just banging away and wondering why they missed. This one big reason why people learn faster with a coach, on a range, than they do by their self or in the "back 40" with their buddies. A coach/instructor is helping them, not trying to beat them.

Students and shooters who miss all the time, quit. The same who feel a lot of success, keep shooting, shoot more, and keep getting better. Because they WANT to.

I have been shooting skeet for the past 2 years (2 rounds a week) with a 28 gauge - my standard load is 3/4 or 7/8 of an ounce. I buy new AAs all the time in 28 gauge, 3/4 is all I know of being available where I buy AAs....

The 28 gauge has more payload capacity than a .410 - that being said i do agree with you that a 20 gauge can do everything a 28 gauge can - and is a better choice for the application being discussed....
 
I don't mean in general, but for a specific purpose. I'm looking at getting a secondary gun for trap shooting to loan to first-time shooters that is light and has low recoil. (The first-timers would be shooting at hand-tossed targets) I may occasionally use it myself with my own pigeon thrower for a challenge.
Something to ponder; if it is a challenge for you to shoot a 28 ga. at hand-thrown targets, why do you think it is an ideal gun to start someone with?
 
I was at a shoot a little while back with many people there to have fun for a weekend. A regulation trap and skeet field. Shooters of ALL ages, abilities and types of guns from high dollar trap, skeet and sporting guns to rifles with a shotgun barrel on it.

I NOTICED one guy struggle, he didn't have the best gun for the job but he had a gun. It beats a person down to miss and miss, but the last 25 birds of the weekend, I made it a point to ask if I could stand behind him and pull his birds for him. I think by the time that round was done he broke twice the clays he did at any other round of the whole weekend and he went home glad of it and making plans to continue in this direction or that, rather than "I guess this just isn't for me."

I sincerely believe those 25 shots completely turned around his perception of shotguns, clay targets, and what he was capable of doing with them. I'm certainly nothing special, I'm old. I'm loosing some of my own sight but I WANTED to help and see him do better. I believed he could given half a chance. I think I got even more out of that than he did, it was awesome.
I have been shooting skeet for the past 2 years (2 rounds a week) with a 28 gauge - my standard load is 3/4 or 7/8 of an ounce. I buy new AAs all the time in 28 gauge, 3/4 is all I know of being available where I buy AAs....

The 28 gauge has more payload capacity than a .410 - that being said i do agree with you that a 20 gauge can do everything a 28 gauge can - and is a better choice for the application being discussed....
May be I remembered the box wrong on those, I was just browsing. I was surprised they were the same price as the 410s unless I was looking at the wrong box there to.
 
I just checked out the Winchester page for AA and I'll have to take a slap on the knuckles on the loads available there.
They only listed 1/2 oz = 410
3/4 = 28
7/8 = 20

In the factory loads.
 
Who said anything about using a 12 gauge? A 28 has 50% more pellets than a 410, greatly increasing the odds of success. Station 7 low house would be the same as standing next to your backyard thrower, but with better quality targets. Having them stand right behind the trap house would also be about as close to your backyard thrower, again - with better targets. A 28 is about as perfect a bore to start with - especially on the larger 20 gauge frame. I own a Savage Fox BSE, the 311s upscale cousin, it is heavy, even in 20, poorly designed and built; has a HORRIBLE trigger.

I'll have to take a dish of crow on this one after just checking the Winchester web page to find they only offer 28 gauge AA in 3/4 ounce loads and 410 AA in only 1/2 ounce.
 
I just checked out the Winchester page for AA and I'll have to take a slap on the knuckles on the loads available there.
They only listed 1/2 oz = 410
3/4 = 28
7/8 = 20

In the factory loads.
In competitive skeet the max shot load for .410 is 1/2 ounce.
For 28 gauge, the max shot load is 3/4 ounce.
For 20 gauge, the max shot load is 7/8 ounce.

So, if the Win AA ammunition you are looking at is target ammunition, they will be at those shot levels.

In NSSA skeet competition, you can shoot smaller gauges with appropriate smaller shot charges in a particular event.

When I was shooting competitive skeet, my 20 gauge average was better than my 12 gauge average. I could never get my tubeless 12 gauge skeet gun to swing the same as with tubes installed in the gun. So, I shot 20 gauge in the 12 gauge events.

If you look at the NSSA rules, you can see the different averages required for each gauge for each class. 12, 20, and 28 gauges have similar differences while the .410 average differences from 28 gauges are larger than the differences for the three larger gauges.
 
If I had unlimited funds I’d have a 28 gauge SxS and an O/U built on appropriately sized frames. The SxS would be an AyA or Grulla.
 
Something to ponder; if it is a challenge for you to shoot a 28 ga. at hand-thrown targets, why do you think it is an ideal gun to start someone with?
Well, I never said I would be using it for hand-thrown targets, I said I would be using a mechanical thrower; nor did I say I thought it would be "ideal." Getting information of that kind is the point of this thread. So the answer to your question is basically that I never said either thing.
 
If I had unlimited funds I’d have a 28 gauge SxS and an O/U built on appropriately sized frames. The SxS would be an AyA or Grulla.
No love for the David McKay Brown trigger plate?
McKay-Brown-Best-28-ga_100395744_6903_461388FC4F153E5E.jpg

29" barrels, 5#-10 oz
 
David makes some of the finest guns today. based on the original Scottish triggerplate action by MacNaughton and John Dickson, it is extremely simple yet much stronger than a sidelock. The gun in that pic has a price of £46,000

ADDED: http://www.mckaybrown.com/

Might as well furnish the link to DMB
 
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I never shot anything smaller than a 12 ga until a few years ago, when sm and others on this board convinced me to try a 28, mainly for my wife and the grandkids to shoot. I met Steve in Tulsa and out of seven that we looked at, I bought a pristine, 1970s built, Wingmaster. My wife loved it! A few months later, a laid off steelworker sold me a Baikal SXS 28, which quickly became her (and my) favorite. The thing kills doves way easier than it should. My wife doesn't hunt, but she loves shooting Sporting Clays with it. She doesn't score well, but she has a ton of fun.

I immediately bought a MEC for it after seeing the price of ammo. They're a little more finicky to load than 12 ga, but cheap to load.

I don't remember the name of Brister's book about shotgun performance, but he theorizes that the 28 performs so well because of the short shot string. IOW, most of the shot arrives at the target at the same time.
 
Between ammo availability and the $ for the ammo, I would just get 20 gauge. Also, a 20 is much more versatile in general. In 42 years of hunting and shooting, I know exactly 1 person who uses a 28- a person for whom $ isn't even a consideration. In fact, the gun he uses probably costs more than my jeep.
 
Well, I never said I would be using it for hand-thrown targets, I said I would be using a mechanical thrower; nor did I say I thought it would be "ideal." Getting information of that kind is the point of this thread. So the answer to your question is basically that I never said either thing.


I'm looking at getting a secondary gun for trap shooting to loan to first-time shooters that is light and has low recoil. (The first-timers would be shooting at hand-tossed targets) I may occasionally use it myself with my own pigeon thrower for a challenge.

Yes; you (sort of) did; you did leave out the mechanical thrower. I admit to putting the ideal in there, but the basic premise of my question stands.I would actually recommend having the new shooters stand next to the mechanical thrower, which will throw boringly repeatable targets, until they 'get it', then have them move to create some angle. Leave the hand throwing for yourself, that makes it more of a challenge, tossing them for yourself. ;)
 
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In the early 1960’s when Dad introduced me to shotgun shooting, the only ammunition he could find for his 28 gauge shotgun was 3/4 ounce target ammunition.

In later years when I shot skeet competitively, I decided skeet competition had a major roll in keeping 28 gauge alive since it is one of the 4 gauges shot in regular competition.

This is also probably the reason hunting 28 gauge ammunition is difficult to find. Primarily target ammunition with shot sizes mostly 8 through 9 is what one finds most easily.

Since when I shoot 28 gauge it is in skeet, I only look for target ammunition. So, hunting loads may be available but I do not remember seeing many if any when I was shopping. I do reload 28 gauge so I could generate ammunition for bird hunting.

Side note, the first pheasant that I shot was with one of those 28 gauge #9 target loads. I got lucky, we found a couple of pellets had hit the bird’s head and turned his lights out.

Obviously, a beginner can have a good experience shooting clay targets with a 28 gauge shotgun, I am a good example. But you do need to make adjustments in the shooting game to make getting hits a bit easier with the small gauge at the start.

Still, 20 gauge is more flexible and improves a beginner’s chance of success. There is nothing more gratifying seeing a clay target turn to dust with a good hit. It is easier to do when there is more shot n the shell to begin with.

One final aside, the first class win I earned in a skeet tournament was in the 28 gauge match. I tied with the other shooter at the end of regulation and then won the shoot out, doubles at stations 3, 4, and 5.
 
Love the smaller gauges. Prefer the 28’s over a 410....reloading 28’s is much easier than 410’s. Shot tends to hang up more in the drop tube on the 410. You can’t go fast.

I have a pair of CZ sxs’s in 28, one English style and single trigger/pistol grip. Still can’t decide which I prefer.
 
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