30-30 spire point Bullets. Yay or Nay?

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DustyGmt

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Is there any substantial terminal lethality improvements with the spire point 30-30 bullets. My daughter has asked to hunt this year with me. I've never shot a deer (minus 1 roadside mercy kill), but I figure I'll take her out this year and who knows my luck could change.

I'm tossing around the idea of her using my single shot 30-30 and didn't know if anybody had favorable experience hunting with the pointy 30-30's. I have a 7mm-08 compact that I think would be perfect but she is a relatively new shooter and 10 yo, I'm thinking the recoil could be a lil stout for her and using a scoped rifle could possibly complicate things for her. I might put a red dot on the 30-30 but as it sits now it's just got open irons. Any of u seasoned deer slayers out there got any tips for a first time hunt with a youngster?

One other thing, would it be safe to assume that a 30-30 win inside of say 100 or so yards will drop a whitetail in their tracks provided good shot placement? I would hate for my daughter to have to see the animal suffer and just want to know if quick clean kills are typical with 30-30 given their slower ballistics. I know I probably sound like a rube but I just don't have that experience with hunting. Lots of exercise, no kills...
 
Hornady bulllets were spire-points until they went to ogive points, sometime in the 1950s or 1960s.

They were good on deer to 500 yards, per witnesses talking about watching my father's kill. 150-grain Hornady Spire Point, GI load of 4895 in his sporterized Springfield.
 
Traditional pointed bullets are a bad idea in tube magazines. The point of the bullets are resting on the primer of the bullet ahead of it. It is theoretically possible to detonate cartridges in the magazine from recoil. Hormady does make pointed bullets with soft rubber tips that are safe.

The trajectory isn't enough different to matter between the pointed bullets and RN to matter. But the pointed bullets will impact with greater velocity at 200 yards than RN bullets at that range. Either will be fine at 100 or less
 
I used to use a lot of 125 grn spire points in my savage 340 bolt gun in 30-30. with good success.

if memory serves me the 150 grn spires were too long for the clip.of course in a single shot this may not matter.

what could matter tho is that you may not have the velocity for 150 grn bullet in spire point to expand properly.most 150 grn spire points are made for higher velocity rounds.

if you are not going to shoot more than 100 yrds, the spire point is really not going to gain you a whole lot.

as far as dropping a deer in its tracks, that rarely happens unless its a brain shot or possible a neck shot that hits the spine.

I have seen unexcited deer run as far as 50yrds shot square thru the heart. a shoulder shot with a somewhat high velocity bullet can also result in quick kills but often results in much more meat damage than a heart or lung shot.
 
Perhaps the most crucial thing is the length of pull on the stock. Unless you are bound and determined to work up a special handload with a light spirepoint tailored for your daughter, I would suggest you use a factory 150 gr. BUT, in a light rifle (as an unscoped single shot is likely to be) the recoil will be noticed. If the stock pull is too long, it will make it difficult for her to properly shoulder the rifle and she may get smacked around a little. Thus, I would suggest shortening the pull of the rifle and mounting a good recoil pad in order to get it ready for her. Get lots of ammo and have her practice a lot. The key to a clean kill is shot placement, not velocity.

As far as effectiveness of the 30-30: it has likely killed 100 million deer so far...
 
One other thing, would it be safe to assume that a 30-30 win inside of say 100 or so yards will drop a whitetail in their tracks provided good shot placement?
No. No matter how good the shot placement is (unless it's a head shot) not even my .338 Winchester Magnum drops deer "in their tracks" every time. The fact is, the first deer I ever killed, a doe mule deer at about 40 yards, ran another 40 yards or so uphill after I shot her through the heart with a .308 Winchester.
Teach your daughter to shoot well, and teach her about good shot placement of course. But don't count on the deer dropping in their tracks, or "knocking the deer down" with any deer rifle, at any range, no matter how well the shot is placed. Deer "dropping in their tracks" or appearing to be "knocked down" when they are shot happens, but there are no guarantees. Besides, if you're close enough, you're likely to see the deer kick and thrash about a little even after it hits the ground.
Sorry if I sound hard hearted. I'm not. It's just that I'd hate to hear later on that your daughter was upset because the deer didn't appear to die as quickly as planned.
 
There is a substantial ballistic advantage past 100 yards, but a 10 year old first time hunter should not be shooting deer past 100 yards. 50 yards or less is a better bet. So given that context there is no real advantage for what we are talking about here.

As far as what to expect when the animal is shot, it has been my experience having shot or observed the results of probably 150 deer being harvested, that perhaps 20% of the time a deer shot in the lungs will immediately loose consciousness and drop where they stand. The rest of the time they will hunch up and run for 10-30 seconds, in which time they will cover 50-150 yards and then will loose consciousness from loss of blood pressure and will die. I consider that a quick and humane kill.
 
One other thing, would it be safe to assume that a 30-30 win inside of say 100 or so yards will drop a whitetail in their tracks provided good shot placement?

No. That said something even far less capable could. Animals have places that are “light switches” so to speak but even “good shot placement” one could miss the don’t move in any direction except down, parts.

I have seen a deer blown off it’s feet, hit the ground, hop up and run 100 yards with liquified insides and even one drop instantly only to be alive over an hour later when we finally left the blind after we both got one (spine instantly disabled it but no vitals were hit).

What has she shot so far, at what ranges, what ranges are you going to hunt, does she have preference to a type of firearm?
 
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When I was a kid there were two guys behind a grocery store i used to watch that dropped them in their tracks with a .22 rimfire but they just put the barrel up to the head.



If you make it to 14 minutes in, that’s generally the point the new guys and gals remember the most anyway.
 
What has she shot so far, at what ranges, what ranges are you going to hunt, does she have preference to a type of firearm?
She has shot a 10/22 a handful of times and most recently a .223 AR, I didn't anticipate her to shoot so well but she was cool as a cucumber and no wincing, flinching or jerkiness at all, excellent accuracy and even insisted on loading her own mags. It was at a range of about 50 yards from a bench and she had good control. She also shot .38 snub and 9mm with acceptable accuracy as well...

I was pretty impressed with her ability so maybe I will have her shoot both 7-08 and 30-30 and see what she does best with inside of 100 yards. Any further than that perhaps I will likely take the shot...


Btw, thanks for all the input gents, it is helpful....
 
Spire point bullets would be just fine out of a .30-30 single shot, especially the tipped bullets like Ballistic Tips and Hornady SSTs. BTW, no bullet design guarantees an instant kill. The softer tipped bullets will expand faster and provide increased expansion, usually providing quicker kills. Lighter bullets like the Nosler 125 BT work great on smaller deer giving great expansion an ample penetration.


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If the 7-08 fits her, and you reload (since your asking about pointys in a turtle-turtle, I'm assuming you do), you could download 120s to 2800fps or so and have plenty of oomph for deer.
I've actually got a partial box of 120vmax I've been shooting goats and sheep with if you want them, I switched bullets in my 7mag again.
I wouldn't try the Vmax on big deer or tough shots, but they work very well on lung/heart shots, and you can see how she likes the loads before ordering something more suitable, like 120 balistics.
 
I’ve killed a bunch of deer with 140 gn partitions in a 7mm BR pistol. A number of hogs with a 7-08 rifle with downloads equal to the 7 BR (~2250 FPS). Would be pretty hard to go wrong with that combo from my experience.

That said, and I am not a fan of .223 for medium game but, there are lots of folks that have had acceptable results with them using the right bullets.

One marginal bullet in the right spot beats two great ones, in the wrong spots.
 
I suggest Barnes TSX-family bullets. In a single-shot, the blunt point isn't necessary for the tube magazine that isn't there, but you do need to consider the expansion velocity. .30-30 is a lower velocity round and might not result in good expansion with a bullet that was designed for .30-06. But bullets recommended for hunting deer with 300 Blackout would be good. Barnes provides load data for the 150 gr. TSX Flat-Point for .30-30, but for .300BLK they indicate 125 gr. TAC-TX for hogs and deer. You can be sure that you'd get good expansion at .30-30 velocities with that 125 gr. TAC-TX, but you'd have to work up your own load data. If you wanted to find other .308" bullets that expand at lower velocities, you can contact Barnes and they will advise based on their water-tank testing.
 
That said, and I am not a fan of .223 for medium game but, there are lots of folks that have had acceptable results with them using the right bullets.

One marginal bullet in the right spot beats two great ones, in the wrong spots.
I don't want to get dressed down or push people's buttons but... I had considered briefly the .223 because she shot it well. I almost posted a thread to inquire about which factory .223 loads (don't reload as of yet) would be most effective but didnt want to stir up a crap storm.

I am not a cartridge guy but I know most people don't look favorably on shooting med game with .22 caliber and have no immediate plans of doing so. I will just make it a point to get her to the range to shoot different rifles and get her more comfortable.
 
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I've actually got a partial box of 120vmax I've been shooting goats and sheep with if you want them.


Very generous of you to offer. I have not gone down the reloading path, I only shoot a few calibers and while I know I would enjoy it, I can't quite justify it yet. I need to add a couple calibers so that I can tinker and have fun, no real upside to reloading 1 or 2 cals, is there? I save my .223 and 9mm brass but so far as I can gather reloading for those calibers is a waste of time for medium volume shooting ....
 
I threw it out there just because someone else will after you noted she shot it well.

If a lot of shooting is in the plan, I would highly suggest a rest that can absorb the recoil. You can get to know the rifle without getting beat up. There are a number of them out there.

They will allow one to learn the mechanics painlessly and the one shot into the animal won’t be noticed as long as she doesn’t get “scope doped”.

no real upside to reloading 1 or 2 cals, is there?

We all started with one. I reload for a bunch these days but still have some I don’t, just depends. If you wanted to make ammunition for a 10 year old to shoot a 7-08 with, it would be as good a time as any to start.
 
I can't speak to 7-08, but I'll address .30-30's... and I assume you're hunting in woods... at woods ranges, the spitzer's "better" ballistics won't matter. For a new hunter, simple is good... single-shot .30-30 with 150gr RN is really all that's necessary. If she shoots it well with open sights at 50yds or so, she'll be good to go. No need to overthink it. Just be sure she understands the part where, as others have noted, (hitting in the heart/lungs is good but) death isn't necessarily instant and she's liable to get a lesson in tracking.
 
Very generous of you to offer. I have not gone down the reloading path, I only shoot a few calibers and while I know I would enjoy it, I can't quite justify it yet. I need to add a couple calibers so that I can tinker and have fun, no real upside to reloading 1 or 2 cals, is there? I save my .223 and 9mm brass but so far as I can gather reloading for those calibers is a waste of time for medium volume shooting ....

I think you're selling it short. You have at least four different cartridges to load now. I'd bet many handloaders started with fewer. Like the guy who has one deer rife... a .30-30.
 
my dad started me out on my first rifle as he purchased for me on xmas day a new Winchester model 94 ranger angle eject 30-30 and I still use it today as then I was 12yrs old and now 43yrs old and that gun goes with me every year! I load and shoot 170grs sierra pro hunter bullets with 33.6gr Winchester 760 powder works just fine! I also last year purchased a marlin model 336y its a youth model 30-30 and it maybe something to look at for her! as I use it for a truck gun and its not too short for me but is made for the youth so they can have something to start out with or even use for life! also the flat point bullets do just fine out to a max range of 200yrds pointed bullets won't make a lot of difference anyway due to shorter range of the 30-30 and it's combined velocity!
 
No. No matter how good the shot placement is (unless it's a head shot) not even my .338 Winchester Magnum drops deer "in their tracks" every time. The fact is, the first deer I ever killed, a doe mule deer at about 40 yards, ran another 40 yards or so uphill after I shot her through the heart with a .308 Winchester.
Teach your daughter to shoot well, and teach her about good shot placement of course. But don't count on the deer dropping in their tracks, or "knocking the deer down" with any deer rifle, at any range, no matter how well the shot is placed. Deer "dropping in their tracks" or appearing to be "knocked down" when they are shot happens, but there are no guarantees. Besides, if you're close enough, you're likely to see the deer kick and thrash about a little even after it hits the ground.
Sorry if I sound hard hearted. I'm not. It's just that I'd hate to hear later on that your daughter was upset because the deer didn't appear to die as quickly as planned.

Ever since I started making 3rd rib from back mid to low lung shots they can't run near as far as heart shot. It takes way less time to run out of air then it does blood.
 
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