midland man
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and get on youtube and search for vids on reloading and you'll get a lot of videos on how it's done!
30-30 spire point Bullets. Yay or Nay?
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troy fairweather
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watch youtube videos with a grain of salt. RCBS has some good reloading videos, there older now but the basics have not changed.
Can't like this comment enough. Don't start with YouTube. It's more of an entertainment thing. Read the first few chapters of any good manual.
troy fairweather
Member
thanks your right all reloaders should reread the fist few chapters of the data books, the more the better.
You were shooting them out of a 30-06 where they were impacting faster at 500 yards than they are leaving the muzzle on a 30-30. This is something to keep in mind. Traditional RN bullets, as well as the rubber tipped Hormady bullets, are designed to expand at 30-30 speeds. Most pointed bullets are designed around 30-06 and 308 speeds.
While it is possible to "HIT" a deer with a 30-30 at 200+ yards, the speed to get reliable expansion runs out at about 100-150 yards. Beyond that you're just poking 30 caliber holes into animals. Same as using FMJ ammo, and while pointed bullets retain speeds farther down range, they NEED more speed to expand than RN bullets. It is often said that 30-30 has killed more deer than any other cartridge. That is probably true, but it is also often said that 30-30 has wounded more deer that were not recovered than any other cartridge. That is probably true as well. Using pointed bullets just doesn't give you any advantage.
Some other things to keep in mind. Hornady uses some " smoke and mirror" advertising techniques to make their rubber tipped bullet look better than they really are. They show ballistics with traditional bullets zeroed at 100 yards. They show the rubber tipped bullets with a 200 yard zero AND some unrealistic speeds. Of course they LOOK better at 300 yards. If you were to load traditional RN bullets to those same speeds and zero them at 200 yards the numbers at 300 would be virtually the same.
Dr T
Member
The 30-30 is relatively simple to load. I think a good argument could be made for running up a BUNCH of low recoil cast bullet loads to let your daughter get used to shooting the single shot. There are a number of commercial cast bullets suitable for the 30-30 (For example, see and read the comments at https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...-diameter-165-grain-lead-flat-nose-box-of-500)
There is also a guide for loading cast bullets for the 30-30 available at https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/hl63partial.pdf.
A set of dies, a LEE powder dipper set, a scale, and a LEE hand press and you should be good to go.
There is also a guide for loading cast bullets for the 30-30 available at https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/hl63partial.pdf.
A set of dies, a LEE powder dipper set, a scale, and a LEE hand press and you should be good to go.
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DustyGmt
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Very good. You're suggesting lead cast because they are cheap to shoot or because those are more appropriate for use in conjunction with a lower powder charge, lower velocity loading?
I just noticed people who made purchases for those lead cast bullets were loading them with 8gr of powder and getting velocity of approx 1100fps. I remember hearing the 30-30 was so named because it was a .30 cal bullet loaded with 30gr of propellant, 8gr sounds like very little although I'm sure the propellant used 100+ years ago isn't on par with today's standards.
Dr T
Member
Cheap, and perhaps, traditional.
If you note, the 8 gr of powder is with Trail Boss. This is a high bulk powder suitable for lower velocity, low pressure loads. At 7000 gr per pound, you will get 875 rounds from a pound of powder (Or or 450 from a 9 oz jar). Also, it makes for low recoil loads (See https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-education/tips-and-tricks/low-recoil-loads ). In any case, you are looking at less than $100 in consumable materials for 450 rounds which will make for a lot of practice loads that will be fun to shoot.
If you note, the 8 gr of powder is with Trail Boss. This is a high bulk powder suitable for lower velocity, low pressure loads. At 7000 gr per pound, you will get 875 rounds from a pound of powder (Or or 450 from a 9 oz jar). Also, it makes for low recoil loads (See https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-education/tips-and-tricks/low-recoil-loads ). In any case, you are looking at less than $100 in consumable materials for 450 rounds which will make for a lot of practice loads that will be fun to shoot.
mustanger98
Member
I read an article a while back on the history of the .30-30 cartridge... it mentioned there was a small game variant that used a 100gr bullet over 6grs of [I assume some flavor of smokeless] powder. More recently, a .30-30 can be loaded with a 170gr LFP and 7-8grs of Unique. For deer, however, I would recommend a 150gr Hornady RN over enough IMR3031 to run 2200-2400fps.
If I had any .30-30 loads with hard spire points, I'd make sure to mark the box DANGER - NOT FOR TUBULAR MAGAZINES!!!.
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It's safe enough for you, but you never know what could happen if you weren't around and somebody grabbed the box and stuffed the rounds in a tubular magazine.
I've been with new hunters and some older ones that got excited when seeing deer. Many look right over the rear open sight and shoot right over the deer, even at 30 yards or so. One of my adult friends had never killed a deer, but shot at several with his Win. 94. One day, I had him bring his rifle to the project field office trailer and I brought a drill press, a Williams 5-Dollar receiver sight, and higher front sight. After taking him to the range and sighting-in the rifle, he made a nice group offhand at 50 yards.
The next time he went hunting, he saw a deer in the woods at about 40 yards and drilled it in the heart. It started running, so he shot again, killing it instantly with a BRAIN SHOT! He never had a problem killing things with that rifle again.
Another teen friend using his open-sighted Marlin saw a buck standing broadside at about 40 yards. He had only 5 rounds with him and I heard 5 shots about a hundred yards from me in the woods. I waited a minute, then yelled, "Did you get it?" He yelled back, "NO". I asked which way it went. He yelled back, "He's still here, looking at me." It then walked off and we never saw it again. We mounted a receiver sight on that rifle too.
The next time he went hunting, he saw a deer in the woods at about 40 yards and drilled it in the heart. It started running, so he shot again, killing it instantly with a BRAIN SHOT! He never had a problem killing things with that rifle again.
Another teen friend using his open-sighted Marlin saw a buck standing broadside at about 40 yards. He had only 5 rounds with him and I heard 5 shots about a hundred yards from me in the woods. I waited a minute, then yelled, "Did you get it?" He yelled back, "NO". I asked which way it went. He yelled back, "He's still here, looking at me." It then walked off and we never saw it again. We mounted a receiver sight on that rifle too.
Most guys take the screw-in aperture out of the receiver sight, for hunting in dim light. Others use a "twilight aperture" of various diameters/surrounds. My B.I.L. also changed the front sight to be so large it looked like the hood of a truck!
Dr T
Member
BTW: Which single shot rifle in 30-30 do you plan to use.
Also, the Lyman Reloading Handbook is a very useful tutorial and reference manual. For me, one of the most interesting things about this manual is that it provides pressure information for a number of loads. My version (#49) has 30-30 loads for jacketed bullets in 110, 125,150, and 170 gr and cast bullets in 170 and 173 gr (including a Trail Boss load for the 173 gr). By examining this data you will see the wide range of loads (from low velocity reduced to maximum power hunting loads) that can be achieved. Also, I suggest that you use a recoil calculator ( such as http://www.shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php ) so you can tailor a load to your daughter's recoil tolerance. While you can build up your tolerance through time, too much too soon can give a beginning shooter a terrible flinch that may take years and a lot of practice to overcome.
Also, the Lyman Reloading Handbook is a very useful tutorial and reference manual. For me, one of the most interesting things about this manual is that it provides pressure information for a number of loads. My version (#49) has 30-30 loads for jacketed bullets in 110, 125,150, and 170 gr and cast bullets in 170 and 173 gr (including a Trail Boss load for the 173 gr). By examining this data you will see the wide range of loads (from low velocity reduced to maximum power hunting loads) that can be achieved. Also, I suggest that you use a recoil calculator ( such as http://www.shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php ) so you can tailor a load to your daughter's recoil tolerance. While you can build up your tolerance through time, too much too soon can give a beginning shooter a terrible flinch that may take years and a lot of practice to overcome.
mustanger98
Member
Of those, I'd recommend somebody use a Twilight aperture... I forget the max diameter, but for hunting, I'd say the wider the better. Marbles 1/16" white bead shows up good.
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DustyGmt
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It is an NEF Handi Rifle. I actually had her shoulder it today and I noticed after about 4-5 seconds I can see her arms straining and become unsteady. I'm not sure it's going to be the best choice. Tbh, it is a pretty heavy rifle for what it is, very barrel heavy.
I might go and actually start shopping around for a nice light youth gun for her, it may be a good topic for another thread but if any of you guys have any suggestions I'm all ears...
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DustyGmt
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My grandfather had an old 94 30-30 that I took out with my dad a few times at roughly the same age, 9 or 10. I remember it was a nice handling rifle and I recall being able to shoot it reasonably well. I wonder if a 30-30 lever gun would be a good option, or maybe I should look into other options...
If you search on here, there are quite a few threads on hunting guns for children.
Shooting sticks are a great idea for anyone. Make the $40 investment it build your own and see how she does with the 30-30. You will be surprised at the help they provide.
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DustyGmt
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No doubt, I actually have some nice shooting sticks somewhere, kind of forgot about em...
denton
Member
There are choices that might be better for a young shooter than a Handi-Rifle. As you've said, they are uncommonly heavy for what they are.
Stephens and Savage offered models 325 and 340, possibly plus some others. These are handy, fun little bolt action 30-30 rifles.
You might look at some of the Savage youth models. 243s with 100 grain Partitions are reputed to work like a charm.
Mossberg has youth rifles with spacers the fit on the end of the stock to adjust stock length. That's a big advantage. You could get one of those in any one of a number of attractive chamberings: 6.5 CM, 7mm08, 243.
Stephens and Savage offered models 325 and 340, possibly plus some others. These are handy, fun little bolt action 30-30 rifles.
You might look at some of the Savage youth models. 243s with 100 grain Partitions are reputed to work like a charm.
Mossberg has youth rifles with spacers the fit on the end of the stock to adjust stock length. That's a big advantage. You could get one of those in any one of a number of attractive chamberings: 6.5 CM, 7mm08, 243.
Savage youth models in .223 or .243 would be sufficient, in .243 light loaded 85 sgk, partitions, or 95 partition, b tip, ssts, or 100 gr partitions or sgk or prohunters all at sub 2800 fps would handle the job. For big boy loads you can crank the speed but it's not needed for practical distances, alternatively the ar profile has several decent offerings with versatility. If the kid already likes the .223, maybe upping to .224 Valk or 6.5 Grendel or 7.62x39 would be an easy adjustment to consider.
mustanger98
Member
She can probably use the rifle's weight to her advantage... assuming the LOP's not a problem, the weight of that barrel will reduce perceived recoil. BTDT. Now, to manage that weight...
When I'm leaning on a tree, I use shooting sticks... just two bamboo sticks with a length of braided 550 cord. I've shot deer across them... just have to be patient and set up the shot. The sticks can be used standing up or sitting down. I don't guess you're planning to use a tree stand... plenty of those have a rest she could use. But if y'all aren't climbing trees, I still recommend the sticks.
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mustanger98
Member
Although I just recommended sticking with that HandiRifle, I also think the Win 94 is another excellent option. However, she may or may not perceive more recoil compared to the HandiRifle across sticks.
I don't like lever action for children. Many don't have safeties. Loading can be difficult for them and unloading forces them to cycle every round. If a shot isn't taken, the hammer must be lowered after the trigger is pulled.
If it's one of the cross bolt safety ones and it has a hammer spur, most of this is negated.
Handi rifle has the lowering the hammer issue also.
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DustyGmt
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Thanks guys, lots of good ideas to rattle around. I'll take her to the gun shop and have her handle a number of rifles and try to narrow down a caliber. I kind of like this .223 idea because I kind of wanted a .223 boltgun to play with for myself too. .243 and 30-30 still seem like viable options as well.
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