Blue Brick
Member
Ok bullets are flying....I have a gun...I want to help save lives. I am the first on the scene. How does Mr. Policeman and John Public know I there to help and not a threat? How do you keep from getting shot from friendly fire?
Active shooter response
- Thread starter Blue Brick
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Unless the shooter is right there in front of you, you keep your firearm concealed and move away from the threat like everyone else. If the responding officers see you armed you will most likely be shot down.
Sorry but that’s just way it is. There are no secret signs you can flash that says you’re a good guy. The worst thing you can do is display your firearm and head towards the sounds of gunfire. Everyone has a cell phone these days. The first private citizen who sees you will probably call 911 and report you as the shooter or an additional shooter. Now you have officers responding to your location and they think you’re a hostile. That can turn a bad day into a terrible day.
Unless the shooter is right in front of you, the best thing you can do for your own safety and everyone else’s, is to gather up your loved ones if you aren’t alone and move away from the threat. Should you encounter the shooter on the way out you might take action.
Unless the shooter is active right in front of you, there is nothing you and your gun can do to help. You are just going to add more confusion to an already chaotic situation. This goes for off duty officers and private citizens alike. An active shooter call is going to get officers from many agencies responding. Even an off duty officer can’t count on being recognized.
Sorry but that’s just way it is. There are no secret signs you can flash that says you’re a good guy. The worst thing you can do is display your firearm and head towards the sounds of gunfire. Everyone has a cell phone these days. The first private citizen who sees you will probably call 911 and report you as the shooter or an additional shooter. Now you have officers responding to your location and they think you’re a hostile. That can turn a bad day into a terrible day.
Unless the shooter is right in front of you, the best thing you can do for your own safety and everyone else’s, is to gather up your loved ones if you aren’t alone and move away from the threat. Should you encounter the shooter on the way out you might take action.
Unless the shooter is active right in front of you, there is nothing you and your gun can do to help. You are just going to add more confusion to an already chaotic situation. This goes for off duty officers and private citizens alike. An active shooter call is going to get officers from many agencies responding. Even an off duty officer can’t count on being recognized.
The Norwegian mass shooter, Breivik, dressed in a police uniform and presenting himself as "Martin Nilsen" from the Oslo Police Department. Quote from Wiki: 2011 Norway attacks. Breivik managed to murder 69 people.
Given that active shooters dress in outfits to deceive, maybe rushing in with an exposed weapon is not the best solution. Being at the scene of a shooting and waving a gun around may get you killed, because, how do the Cops know you are the good guy? From what I have read, Emantic F. Bradford Jr , an Army veteran, drew his pistol in a mall after a shooting. He was moving towards the shooter and the victim when Cops saw Emantic with a weapon in his hand, and shot Emantic three times in the back, killing him. Shooting of Emantic Fitzgerald Bradford Jr.
This was very unfortunate and a good man died. You want this to be you?
Given that active shooters dress in outfits to deceive, maybe rushing in with an exposed weapon is not the best solution. Being at the scene of a shooting and waving a gun around may get you killed, because, how do the Cops know you are the good guy? From what I have read, Emantic F. Bradford Jr , an Army veteran, drew his pistol in a mall after a shooting. He was moving towards the shooter and the victim when Cops saw Emantic with a weapon in his hand, and shot Emantic three times in the back, killing him. Shooting of Emantic Fitzgerald Bradford Jr.
This was very unfortunate and a good man died. You want this to be you?
scaatylobo
Member
I don't post pictures here.
But there is a company that makes an arm sleeve that will state whatever you want.
They are VERY noticeable and I carry one in my pocket that says POLICE 'RETIRED'
If you can take a second to put it on,it might very well save your life.
They make a CONCEALED CARRY model too.
Company is called Armed I.D. and add a .com to that and you have their addy.
I am not employed nor make anything from this information.
But I bought 3 of these,so as to to carry at all times
sparkyv
Member
This us absolutely the best, most cogent and terse response to such a question that I've ever read. We would all do well to heed Jeff's advice.
Being misidentified by police is a real problem, and one I have considered. Your appearance is important; if you look like a dirtbag, you're more likely to be shot. Weapon is also an issue, if you're brandishing a Glock in gangsta fashion you're SURE to be shot.
Personally, my carry is a S&W 642, and I'd only expose it briefly to take a shot. My truck rifle is a Winchester 94 lever, and I always have a cowboy hat on hand. I'm also 65 years old and have a beard halfway to my belt. I figure I'm a lot less likely to draw police fire than many.
Personally, my carry is a S&W 642, and I'd only expose it briefly to take a shot. My truck rifle is a Winchester 94 lever, and I always have a cowboy hat on hand. I'm also 65 years old and have a beard halfway to my belt. I figure I'm a lot less likely to draw police fire than many.
If you display a weapon in any way you are likely to be shot. No one is going to say, "he's holding his gun like an experienced shooter he must be a good guy." What part of anyone, even an off duty officer who is displaying a weapon is likely to be shot by responding officers in an active shooter situation is so hard to understand? Calls like this are the ultimate example of the fog of war. 911 is being overwhelmed with calls reporting the incident. Officers who are responding are being updated by radio and MDC about all of these reports in an effort to give them the best information possible. If someone sees you with a weapon it's very likely the police are going to get a report of an additional shooter and that additional shooter is going to be you.
Personally, my carry is a S&W 642, and I'd only expose it briefly to take a shot. My truck rifle is a Winchester 94 lever, and I always have a cowboy hat on hand. I'm also 65 years old and have a beard halfway to my belt. I figure I'm a lot less likely to draw police fire than many.
If you are visible armed you are likely to draw fire from responding officers. Cowboy hats, long beards and lever action rifles do not tell anyone you are a good guy. You are just an armed person in a place where an armed person is shooting innocent people. Thankfully I never had to respond to active shooter, but I've been through enough training on responding to an active shooter to know how chaotic they are even in a training environment. In a real situation where the blood and screams of the victims are real it's going to be worse.
Unless the shooter is right there in front of you, keep your gun concealed and exit the area like everyone else. While I know you only have good intentions by wanting to help, you will only add to the chaos forcing officers who should be searching for the real shooter to hunt for you and it will likely result in you being shot down when they do find you.
RedlegRick
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My gun club offered an active shooter response class and I highly suggest everyone take the time to attend one before formulating a plan. That's all I'll say here.
I'm seeing a lot of "over reacting" on both sides of this issue. Hopefully no one is going to arm themselves and go hunting an active shooter, but on the other hand I think many - myself included - would engage an visible and obvious shooter if it would clearly save lives.
This would most likely happen where there was no police presence evident. In such an event it would be advantageous to appear as legitimate as possible, perhaps utilizing the suggestions of myself and others.
I will agree that police in general are extremely trigger-happy, and would certainly advise retreat as the best option in most cases. Any other course would be a calculated risk, but one that I would take under certain circumstances.
If I did engage it would be very quickly, and after such engagement I would immediately secure my weapon, retreat as possible, and raise both hands in the air.
This would most likely happen where there was no police presence evident. In such an event it would be advantageous to appear as legitimate as possible, perhaps utilizing the suggestions of myself and others.
I will agree that police in general are extremely trigger-happy, and would certainly advise retreat as the best option in most cases. Any other course would be a calculated risk, but one that I would take under certain circumstances.
If I did engage it would be very quickly, and after such engagement I would immediately secure my weapon, retreat as possible, and raise both hands in the air.
There was a man in Alabama with a ccw accidently shot by police at a mall a few years back, though I can't recall specifics.
If you do take the shot, reholster soon as responding units probably will not identify themselves, and if you are holding a gun, knife, whatever, you will probably be shot.
Active shooter training varies throughout the country with different methods of tactics, but all end with stopping the killing drilled into your brain. Shoot/don't shoot is a part of the good training curriculum, but in the heat of the moment, if you are just holding your hands together and come out of a room too quick, you may get shot. It sounds ridiculous, but in that moment tunnel vision is real and the brain is not logically thinking, on any side, without significant training.
If you do take the shot, reholster soon as responding units probably will not identify themselves, and if you are holding a gun, knife, whatever, you will probably be shot.
Active shooter training varies throughout the country with different methods of tactics, but all end with stopping the killing drilled into your brain. Shoot/don't shoot is a part of the good training curriculum, but in the heat of the moment, if you are just holding your hands together and come out of a room too quick, you may get shot. It sounds ridiculous, but in that moment tunnel vision is real and the brain is not logically thinking, on any side, without significant training.
PWC
Member
What is "active shooter"? Someone firing shots, someone with a gun, someone still wiggling?
All of us must be inactive shooters.
I understand the intent of the meaning, but why isn't just plain shooter sufficient? Everytine I hear a talking head say it, they say it like it should be accompanied by the sound of thunder like when they say "assault rifle". I know, I know.....but it just grates on me.
All of us must be inactive shooters.
I understand the intent of the meaning, but why isn't just plain shooter sufficient? Everytine I hear a talking head say it, they say it like it should be accompanied by the sound of thunder like when they say "assault rifle". I know, I know.....but it just grates on me.
How much police experience and formal training do you have in active shooter response? If you had any idea of what doctrine is for response to an active shooter you would not think anyone was over reacting.
Then why mention your cowboy hat, long beard and Winchester 94 in your truck? By mentioning a weapon you clearly would not have on your person you certainly suggested that you were prepared to do just that.
Which is exactly what I have suggested in my first post in this thread and every subsequent post I made.
The police are not trigger happy. The mission in response to an active shooter is to STOP THE SHOOTER FROM CONTINUING. This makes it different from almost every other response. As officers arrive on the scene they are going to form ad hoc teams, enter the area and begin hunting for the shooter. They will not stop to give aid to anyone, not even a fallen officer. As other officers arrive they will enter and start hunting the shooter. I can pretty much guarantee you that if you are in the act of shooting at the real shooter when one of these teams encounters you, you will be shot down. You will have no awareness of what's happening in the rest of the building, you will have no idea of how many officers have entered the building and where they are. You have no idea of what they have been told by dispatch about the location and description of the real shooter. You also don't know if someone has seen you armed and reported you are either the shooter or a second shooter. It's quite common for reports of multiple shooters to only be debunked hours after the incident is over after a thorough search.
I would recommend that you secure your weapon and remain at the scene, assume a prone position on the floor with your hands out to your side palms up. When the officers arrive follow all of their commands, be prepared to be cuffed and treated as a suspect until it's proven you aren't. You've just used deadly force and you will be subject to the same investigation as if it had happened under other circumstances. While I doubt you need to worry about being criminally charged, there will be an investigation.
You whip out your gun. Start firing shots in the air to clear a path as you are running in at full speed. You don't stop until you take one in the back from the original shooter, fellow vigilantly or the cops. You should really have a humorous quip prepared before hand to mumble to yourself as you are charging in.
Have you never watched an action movie?
Have you never watched an action movie?
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I am former LE, albeit many years ago, with considerable experience.
This is an excellent example of what I call "over reacting". In no way, shape or form does the presence of these items suggest I'm ready to go on a "shooter hunt". I seldom stray far from my truck, and in the very unlikely event I was at such a scene, I might easily be in it.
More over reacting, and YMMV. In my experience, our local police are VERY trigger happy and grossly inexperienced. I could tell you some interesting stories, but that's the topic of another time. And again, no officer is likely to "encounter" me; I don't act rashly nor would I enter a building on a "hunt" as you so wrongly assume.
@Jeff White - One must also realize that the members here comprise an extremely wide demographic. There are no singular "right" answers to the issues posed in this thread. Hopefully we can all benefit from suggestions made by other members, and incorporate these ideas into our own individual plans. IMO, discussion and debate is much more useful than forceful insistence.
I’m sorry but I cannot permit advise as foolish as an armed citizen going after an active shooter to go unchallenged. You’re “extensive” LE experience should have taught you that advice like “if you’re holding your glock gangsta style will get you shot” doesn’t contribute anything to the conversation not does your suggestion that a cowboy hat and long beard will ID you as a good guy.
This is the most serious forum on THR and comments like that add nothing to the discussion and don’t help the credibility of the member who posts them.
Maybe in your LE career you always knew everything you needed to know when arriving at a call and the “bad guy” always looked like the bad guy, but that wasn’t my experience or the experience of any officer I’ve spoken with from any jurisdiction anywhere in the country.
There is nothing wrong with discussion and debate, that’s the purpose of the forum, but you need to be prepared to defend your statements with a reasoned argument.
Perhaps you’d like to explain why being armed with a SW snubbie is less likely to get you shot then a Glock carried “gangsta fashion” and why cowboy hats, long beards and lever action rifles identify one as the good guy?
And I’m really interested to know what kind of active shooter you’re likely to encounter in or near your truck....,,
This is the most serious forum on THR and comments like that add nothing to the discussion and don’t help the credibility of the member who posts them.
Maybe in your LE career you always knew everything you needed to know when arriving at a call and the “bad guy” always looked like the bad guy, but that wasn’t my experience or the experience of any officer I’ve spoken with from any jurisdiction anywhere in the country.
There is nothing wrong with discussion and debate, that’s the purpose of the forum, but you need to be prepared to defend your statements with a reasoned argument.
Perhaps you’d like to explain why being armed with a SW snubbie is less likely to get you shot then a Glock carried “gangsta fashion” and why cowboy hats, long beards and lever action rifles identify one as the good guy?
And I’m really interested to know what kind of active shooter you’re likely to encounter in or near your truck....,,
Once again, I NEVER suggested that an armed citizen "go after" an active shooter, in fact, quite the contrary. And as far your your opinion of what does or does not "contribute to the conversation", it's just that: your opinion. We all see posts that we disagree with, and often it's best to just take them at face value and not "challenge" them, particularly not so vehemently.
It's obvious that you feel very strongly on certain points, but you must realize that others have lived a different life, managed to survive quite a while, and may not be as ignorant as you seem to think. There's many ways to approach a problem, particularly one as complicated as this.
With that said, I'll take my own advice in reference to any further replies. If you find my advice so "foolish" that it must not go "unchallenged", I respectfully request that you address your complaints by PM.
Let's all just try to get along, okay?
What’s complicated about this problem? It seems to me it’s pretty simple. Keep your head, get yourself and any loved ones out of the area and only display your weapon if you are directly confronted by the shooter.
Those seem like pretty simple rules to live by.
I’d still like to know what you were suggesting when you posted that responding officers are more likely to think you’re one of the “good guys if you were displaying a SW442 then a Glock carried “gangsta fashion”.
You’ve not defended any of those statements with anything more then “others have different experiences”. Why don’t you tell us why a SW442 is more likely to identify you as a good guy with a gun then a Glock carried gangsta fashion (whatever that means)?
It's against my better judgement, but I'll reply for entertainment value only.
First, if it were really this simple and you feel so strongly, why didn't you just post "Keep your head, get yourself and any loved ones out of the area and only display your weapon if you are directly confronted by the shooter", then lock the thread? Personally I'm here to exchange ideas and have fun. I never expected to be challenged so aggressively, but whatever. If this is the norm, I'll just leave quietly.
Second, here's a visual aid. You be the judge.
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Such images to do not contribute. Thus they were deleted.
GEM
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So all bad guys shoot like the picture on the left and all of the good guys shoot like the picture on the right and that’s how you tell the bad guys from the good guys? Odd but somehow my 20 years in the Infantry and in the 20 years in law enforcement after that I never learned that......
Do you really feel that is a way to determine who is hostile and who is a well meaning armed citizen trying to help?
If you posted those things to have fun, you should have used one of the emoticons so that everyone knew you were making a joke. If you had put something like this
behind your statements everyone would have known you were making a joke.Tone and sarcasm is very hard to read in a format like this. If I took your posts as serious advice when they weren’t meant that way I apologize.
edwardware
Member
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- 4,424
Depends:
In my church? Go, find, win, risks be damned, this is my family. The one uniformed officer we occasionally have on-site knows this. Also, in a crowd this probably requires closing to contact distance before firing.
In the mall? Me and mine will vanish like a fart in a stiff breeze.
In my church? Go, find, win, risks be damned, this is my family. The one uniformed officer we occasionally have on-site knows this. Also, in a crowd this probably requires closing to contact distance before firing.
In the mall? Me and mine will vanish like a fart in a stiff breeze.
Just what I needed, instructions on how and when to use emoticons. I did use one, guess it wasn't the right one. But no, I wasn't joking.If you posted those things to have fun, you should have used one of the emoticons so that everyone knew you were making a joke. If you had put something like this
I figure I'm a lot less likely to draw police fire than many.
Concerning this gem:
I take particular exception to your removal of the picture I posted. BOTH individuals were white, is this why you removed it? Regardless, it now leaves the appearance that I'm some kind of racist, and that is NOT appreciated.Jeff White said:
Apparently this is not as friendly a Forum as I had anticipated. I'll think twice before posting here again.
If you display an unholstered weapon you need to be concerned about being shot not only by the police as already mentioned, but by other people that carry including self-appointed "security," vigilantes, and "sheep dogs." Move away from threats and respond with deadly force only when you have no other choice. Recognize that other people are responsible for their own security and not you.
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