S&W Scandium Frames, How Durable Are They?

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jski

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I’ve been looking at some of Smith’s Scandium frame revolvers and was wondering how well these hold up when chambered in a magnum cartridge: .357 or .44 ?

BTW, this has to be a Scandium alloy, so what are its ingredients?
 
Well, I have learned another new thing here today! I thought the "Scandium" alloy had a lot more aluminum in it; I had no idea there was actually more titanium. Thanks, LRDGCO.
 
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I have a 327 Night Guard. When I first bought it I was leery that such a light gun could handle lots of magnum loads. The placement of the little blast shield above the barrel in the front of the cylinder frame opening had me concerned that it wasn’t “good enough”.

I have fired hundreds of rounds of .357 magnum and .38 Special loads in this revolver and I see no issues whatsoever.
 
I’ve been looking at some of Smith’s Scandium frame revolvers and was wondering how well these hold up when chambered in a magnum cartridge: .357 or .44 ?

The usual answer to this question is "Better than your hand does." For a gun that is carried a lot and shot a little, they last just fine. And when I say a little, I do mean shot a bit. This is not code for "never shoot it."

I do find that no-one wants to shoot a scandium 357 j-frame very much though. And the scandium 44 magnum is really brutal to shoot in my experience. Both guns are OK with their respective special rounds, but even then the recoil is noticeable.

Also, with a scandium revolver, you do need to keep an eye on the steel insert at the front of the cylinder window that protects the topstrap. The insert lasts for quite a while, but if it does wear out, the gun needs to go back to the factory to have it replaced.
 
The main ingredient of these “scandium” framed revolvers is aluminum. They don’t hold up really well (particularly in the case of the 329 PD - .44 Mag). They were meant to carry more than shoot and they are a real pleasure to carry.
 
The main ingredient of these “scandium” framed revolvers is aluminum. They don’t hold up really well (particularly in the case of the 329 PD - .44 Mag). They were meant to carry more than shoot and they are a real pleasure to carry.
Yes they are a joy to carry and they do hold up well. I have a 340PD a 360PD and had a 4in 44 Mag . I have a few thousand rounds through the J frames, not all mag loads but very warm 38spc, and they look and lock up like new. The 44 I shot with hot special loads and so does my friend that now owns it and it is still tight.
 
When you mention Scandium frames, many people think of the 340 PD or the 329 PD and the potentially punishing recoil from the disparity of the overall weight to the chambering, but Scandium is also used in guns like the M&P R8, the TRR8, and the discontinued Nightguard series. These are only .357 Magnums and as heavy as 36 ounces.

The reason for using Scandium-strengthened Aluminum alloy instead of Titanium is not cost, but weight. A Titanium frame would weigh enough that the weight savings versus steel would not make it worth the cost. Titanium is only about half the weight of steel, while Aluminum is about one-third. Because the gun barrel, trigger, hammer, lock work and often the cylinder are still steel, the smaller portion that is made in a lighter metal must be much lighter to make an appreciable difference. An steel N-frame 327 is about 43 ounces, while a Scandium version is about 36 ounces. A Titanium framed 327 might weigh 39 or 40 ounces. Would that be worth the expense?

In my limited experience with a 340 PD, the Scandium frame is more easily scratched and because of the black anodized finish it is harder to refinish than a bare stainless steel frame. The black anodizing is just not as durable, but the scuffs and scratches will only be a cosmetic issue. The Scandium frame also uses the alloy for the crane and that makes the crane easier to bend. If you don't treat the crane with gentleness all the time, it will bend. Even a steel gun's crane should be treated gently and not abused, but it will take more abuse than the light alloy. If the Scadium frame also features a Titanium cylinder, there are issues with those. Titanium cylinders have poor extraction. That can exacerbate the problem with the delicate crane. Cases, especially hot magnums, will stick and you'll be putting more force on the ejector and on the crane. There is not much that can be done about Titanium's poor extraction, but I do wonder if they could use Titanium Nitride plating. If they did more than the chambers, that would be some bling! Ruger avoided using a Titanium cylinder in their Super GP-100 for the poor extraction, and instead used LCR-style fluting on the cylinder to reduce rotational inertia that bangs the notches on the cylinder stop. Titanium cylinders are also known to erode at the face faster than steel. You can search the internet for titanium cylinder erosion. But again, Scandium frame revolvers do not always feature Titanium cylinders. The M&P 340, R8 and TRR8 are some current models that use a stainless steel cylinder with a PVD coating.
 
From what I have read the claim to fame for Scandium is, when added to the base metal of Aluminum it causes the entire alloy to take on the same strength characteristics. That's why a little goes a long way. Too bad the only source is in Russian controlled territories.

It's amazing how strong it makes a 12oz revolver.
 
Yes they are a joy to carry and they do hold up well. I have a 340PD a 360PD and had a 4in 44 Mag . I have a few thousand rounds through the J frames, not all mag loads but very warm 38spc, and they look and lock up like new. The 44 I shot with hot special loads and so does my friend that now owns it and it is still tight.

"Hot Special loads." Not hot Magnum loads. Again, they were meant to carry, not shoot a lot. But, if you are going to lean on any firearm to save your backside, you will want to be really intimate and competent with said firearm and with the loads you intend to use to save your bacon if need be, so that rules out the 329 PD for me. The 329 PD is notorious for frame stretch. Model 29s and 629s stretch from heavy use, so the aluminum doesn't really stand a chance. Just a reality. Great for carry, not guns you want to shoot a lot.
 
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I think the Scandium content in the aluminum frame revolvers is only 2% or less. It's mostly marketing and advertising.

A guy at the indoor range I shoot at bought a 44magnum Scandium frame revolver, It was his first gun. I watched him shoot 20 rounds of 44 mag out of it and he had tears in his eyes when he was done and was very distraught.
He couldn't stand the recoil and said he damaged his hands shooting it.
We told him to buy 44 Specials for in it, and be happy with that, or trade it in on something he could tolerate. He said he couldn't afford too.
I hate it when that happens, No research, no common sense in " try before you buy". Just automatically think they know more that everyone else and spend $800.00 on something they know nothing about.

JSKI, I would highly recommend you rent one and shoot it before you buy one, You may be good with one, but you won't know until you try it first.
 
The Scandium content of most alloys is much lower, usually between 0.1% and 0.5%. But it's not mostly marketing and advertising at all. The effect is very significant. If I understand right, the reason such a small amount of Scandium is effective is that it limits the size of grain growth in the Aluminum. I've seen some charts that show just adding these tiny amounts of Scandium to an Aluminum/Magnesium alloy can nearly triple its yield strength. A 180% increase in yield strength is not just advertising. But Scandium is not the only alloying element in a high-strength Aluminum alloy. So if we evaluate it's addition to Aluminum/Magnesium/Zinc/Copper alloys, the increase in strength is more like 15%, but still significant. Without more specific knowledge of S&W's alloys, I can't say how much it improves frame strength versus the alloy they use in Airweights. One thing is for sure: we don't see Ruger, Taurus or Charter doing anything like it. If those companies could make plain Aluminum .357 and .44 Magnums, I believe they would. If Scandium was just marketing and advertising, those competitors would certainly compete with plain aluminum magnums for hundreds of dollars less -- like half price. But they don't seem to be able to. They could perhaps produce Scandium-alloy guns also, but the cost would put them out of their market position.
 
"Hot Special loads." Not hot Magnum loads. Again, they were meant to carry, not shoot a lot. But, if you are going to lean on any firearm to save your backside, you will want to be really intimate and competent with said firearm and with the loads you intend to use to save your bacon if need be, so that rules out the 329 PD for me. The 329 PD is notorious for frame stretch. Model 29s and 629s stretch from heavy use, so the aluminum doesn't really stand a chance. Just a reality. Great for carry, not guns you want to shoot a lot.
Yep meant to be carried and if you intend to be proficient shot a lot. Just because they are chambered for magnum rounds doesn't mean you are required to use them all the time. I have no problems with mags in the J frames but the .44 is brutal with mags but a joy to shoot with hot special loads.
 
I'm not saying that adding Scandium to an aluminum alloy isn't going to provide some sort of benefit, but Labnoti, as you said, no one else is doing it so why would you say that marketing has nothing to do with it?
 
It is indeed an alloy and the amount of actual Scandium is relatively small. But as a Rare Earth Element, it's kind of cool and thus gets too billing. The alloy used is almost certainly Al20-Li20-Mg10-Sc20-Ti30 (Aluminium, Lithium, Magnesium, Scandium, Titanium) although it could contain even less Scandium. The Scandium is, in effect, a strengthener, especially in areas subject to heat stress, and an anti-brittleness agent. This alloy is essentially as strong as Titanium, but cheaper than pure Titanium.

In other words, it's plenty strong.

In fact, Cyberdine Systems is developing a number of key components for its Skynet defense system from this alloy...

Cyberdine's EDC solution:

?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thegreenhead.com%2Fimgs%2Fxl%2Flifesize-terminator-t-800-endoskeleton-xl.jpg

:D
 
Can anyone comment on LRDGCO's formula for the alloy S&W may be using in its Scandium line of revolvers? And is the cylinder a different alloy, as labnoti's post (#9) seems to suggest? Thanks.
 
Can anyone comment on LRDGCO's formula for the alloy S&W may be using in its Scandium line of revolvers? And is the cylinder a different alloy, as labnoti's post (#9) seems to suggest? Thanks.
S&W says they are Scandium Framed revolvers and then their description will say what the cylinder is made of. Some models use a stainless steel cylinder, some a carbon steel, and yet others use a titanium cylinder. There are no S&W revolvers with a scandium alloy cylinder
My understanding is that the alloy is like.2% scandium. That's all that is required to sufficiently strengthen the alloy
 
S&W says they are Scandium Framed revolvers and then their description will say what the cylinder is made of. Some models use a stainless steel cylinder, some a carbon steel, and yet others use a titanium cylinder. There are no S&W revolvers with a scandium alloy cylinder
My understanding is that the alloy is like.2% scandium. That's all that is required to sufficiently strengthen the alloy

That is what I thought too, Jonesy814. But LRDGCO's formula, if I am interpreting it correctly (which is NOT a given) suggests that scandium makes up 20% of the alloy, and titanium another 30%, and that there may be as much lithium as aluminum. That is why I asked. Thanks for confirming that the cylinder is probably a different alloy, and may vary with the caliber.
 
Got a S&W Governor in Scandium. Haven't had it long, so hard to tell what long-range effects it. But it is light, handles very well, and looks great. So far, the finish has held up beautifully, in Florida humididididitty.
 
I haven’t seen anyone address the issue of the material’s strength. Has anyone experienced or know of anyone who has experienced a failure in the frame of a S&W scandium frame revolver?

BTW, the revolver I’m thinking of is the Model 327 TRR8 .357 Mag which weights in at 35.2 oz. I don’t think I’ll have significant recoil issues.
 
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Russia and China are the only countries actively mining Scandium right now but supposedly a deposit was found in Australia, North of Queensland. It is supposed to have a 30-40% yield ore.
Maybe the other gun companies will use it also if it becomes more marketable.

As far as the frame failing,
I saw a lot of pictures of them blown apart while I was researching, but I see a lot of steel frame revolvers blown apart also.
Some of the pictures had the barrel blown out of the frame where the cylinder held but the frame in front of the cylinder let go.
There was no reason given for the failure, it could have been over loaded.
If they weren't safe from some intrinsic frame problem Smith and Wesson wouldn't still be making them.
I'll do some more searching on the longevity of the frames tonight to see what I can find. You have me curious now.
 
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