450 SMC, the new .45ACP +++P Beast

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About the case:
While the 450 SMC uses a case with the same outer dimensions as .45 ACP, there are a few significant differences that allow DoubleTap to load 450 SMC with five to six thousand pounds per square inch of pressure more than a standard .45ACP. First, the 450 SMC uses a small magnum rifle primer instead of the large pistol primer. This modification allows the hardened case to be thicker at the base. Second, the brass is manufactured from the ground up to handle up to 30,000 pounds of pressure. The result is a dual-purpose cartridge that is exceptional for both hunting and personal defense.
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From DoubleTap:
This is an outstanding load for personal defense. The Nosler bullet at this speed opens very quickly and gets 14" of penetration.
This load should only be used in full sized guns with at least a +P recoil spring.

Caliber : .450 SMC
Bullet : 185gr. Nosler JHP
Ballistics : 1350fps - 749 ft./lbs. - 5" 1911
6" Lone Wolf bbl
1440fps
Box of 20rds.
Click to expand...
 
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Just checking to be sure I understand. Special brass is needed to handle the pressure, but a regular ol' full size 1911 pistol is okay for shooting it? Fine if that is the case. I guess I am just a bit surprised.
 
Deleted because I misread the OP. Still, I don't care what they do with the brass, the brass has to be supported by a firing chamber that can stand the strain. These loads sound like a good way to turn any ordinary 45 ACP revolver or automatic into scrap metal or a hand grenade. That would be a very good explanation for why no one has ever actually marketed this ammunition.

PS - Oh, I see. This is not pistol ammunition. This is rifle ammunition. Unless it can be safely and effectively used in pistols, what's the point?
 
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jski said:
What's the word on the 450 SMC? Evidently this beast was developed almost 20 years ago. Performance wise, well:


View attachment 807986
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Where did those numbers come from? I am not super familiar with 45 SMC but those 10mm Auto numbers are not believable, at least not from a 4-6 inch handgun staying within SAAMI MAP. Those would be hot for 10mm Magnum let alone 10mm Auto. Even a quick look at Double Tap's web sight cannot support any of the numbers in the image in the OP's post for either cartridge.
 
mcb said:
Where did those numbers come from? I am not super familiar with 45 SMC but those 10mm Auto numbers are not believable, at least not from a 4-6 inch handgun staying within SAAMI MAP. Those would be hot for 10mm Magnum let alone 10mm Auto. Even a quick look at Double Tap's web sight cannot support any of the numbers in the image in the OP's post for either cartridge.
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Go to the link provided by the OP. Your answer is there.
 
Monac said:
Deleted because I misread the OP. Still, I don't care what they do with the brass, the brass has to be supported by a firing chamber that can stand the strain. These loads sound like a good way to turn any ordinary 45 ACP revolver or automatic into scrap metal or a hand grenade. That would be a very good explanation for why no one has ever actually marketed this ammunition.
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450 SMC ammo fired in my standard 1911 barrel showed no sign of excess bulging.

The 450 SMC was developed in 2000. Triton (now out of business) used to make the ammo. Now Double Tap does.

STI International used to make single-stack 1911 and double-stack 2011 pistols setup for the 450 SMC (the Xcaliber .450).
 
jski said:
What's the word on the 450 SMC? Evidently this beast was developed almost 20 years ago. Performance wise, well:
Click to expand...

My experience with this ammo from a 5" barrel is that it exceeds the published velocities from a 5" barrel by a little bit.
 
Monac said:
PS - Oh, I see. This is not pistol ammunition. This is rifle ammunition. Unless it can be safely and effectively used in pistols, what's the point?
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This is pistol ammo, designed for use in pistols, and pistols have been designed around this cartridge - see info in post #9.

It just so happens that CMMG has one of their rifles set up for this cartridge - it has lots of recoil, about 75-85% more than a 45 ACP. The 450 SMC is a 45 ACP with more powder/power.
 
This answers many of questions raised above:
While the 450 SMC uses a case with the same outer dimensions as .45 ACP, there are a few significant differences that allow DoubleTap to load 450 SMC with five to six thousand pounds per square inch of pressure more than a standard .45ACP. First, the 450 SMC uses a small magnum rifle primer instead of the large pistol primer. This modification allows the hardened case to be thicker at the base. Second, the brass is manufactured from the ground up to handle up to 30,000 pounds of pressure. The result is a dual-purpose cartridge that is exceptional for both hunting and personal defense.
Click to expand...
 
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mcb said:
Where did those numbers come from? I am not super familiar with 45 SMC but those 10mm Auto numbers are not believable, at least not from a 4-6 inch handgun staying within SAAMI MAP. Those would be hot for 10mm Magnum let alone 10mm Auto. Even a quick look at Double Tap's web sight cannot support any of the numbers in the image in the OP's post for either cartridge.
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Yeah I was confused too. I can believe those numbers out of a 16" barrel though. I clocked a 140 gr Underwood load at 1750 ft/sec out of my carbine and 1500 ft/second from a 5" handgun. So a 1700 ft/sec 165 gr load from Doubletap seems reasonable.

Those 180 gr numbers stand out to me though as still being rather high even from a 16" barrel. Thats gotta be some brutal loads.
 
Thanks for setting me straight, fxvr5. Still, in the context of handguns, the figures presented by the OP are nonsense, as mcp points out above.
 
I built up a xdtac in .45 to run near Rowland spec from a standard chamber. I used super brass, 28# 1911 recoil spring and guide, and a modified lone wolf muzzle brake on the end of a 5.75" Storm lake barrel.

My hottest loads we're running 230s at 1250, and showed no signs of issues on either the case or the primers. Ejection was about 10ft with more vertical than the original barrel and hot 230s.
Im pretty sure I could have kept going, but even with that big grip, that gun was a handful and did a decent job of squirming around.
I much prefered the 200s at 1250.

Im pretty sure a properly modified gun COULD get 1350, or perhaps more, with 230s, but quite honestly I wouldn't want to shoot it much.
I did shoot some 240s, but they we're left overs and the loads only generated about 1100fps.


One nice thing about using the 1911 spring conversion on the XD is I could drop in the stock spring and heavy stainless guide (no way to mistake the 1911 one for that one )and shoot anything but the weakest standard .45 ammo.
 
Before everyone gets excited about making your 45 an elephant gun by simply buying this ammo...I have done the calculations using my Smith and Wesson 4506 which has a somewhat heavier slide than a standard 1911 and the kinetic energy in the slide when it hits the stop on recoil goes from about 9 joules up to 34 joules with the SMC! That is almost 4 times the energy that has to be absorbed by the gun and shooter!!! I do not think this ammo will blow up the gun but I damn sure can tell you that the gun will not LIKE shooting this load for very long! I have been shooting .45 super in my 4506 for years but sparingly using loads that have almost double the standard ACP slide energy and have not seen any problem but the Rowland conversions have a comp on them for a reason...To add mass to the slide barrel unit and to direct some of the gas back to slow down the recoil. I personally would NOT shoot any of this 450 smc ammo in any recoil operated pistol that I own unless it was equipped with a heavy and effective comp. I would be interested to know just how many rounds it takes to break something on a 1911 shooing this stuff though so if anybody wants to try it please follow up with your results!
 
I'm new to this forum and new to 1911's. My Ruger SR 1911 has a fully supported barrel. I asked the makers of 45 Super and 450 SMC ammunition what modifications were required to run their loads in my 1911.
The owner of Doubletap said no modifications are required for his 450 SMC. A technician at Underwood said a minimum of a 20 lb recoil spring and suggested a 28 lb hammer spring, and if planning to shoot a lot of their 45 Super a flat bottom firing pin stop. The owner of Buffalo Bore made no recommendations as his guns were modified to 460 Rowland way back when.
I wouldn't be shooting many of these heavy hitters but don't mind changing springs and firing pin stop in order to protect my pistol.
Thoughts?
 
Richard Jay King said:
Before everyone gets excited about making your 45 an elephant gun by simply buying this ammo...I have done the calculations using my Smith and Wesson 4506 which has a somewhat heavier slide than a standard 1911 and the kinetic energy in the slide when it hits the stop on recoil goes from about 9 joules up to 34 joules with the SMC! That is almost 4 times the energy that has to be absorbed by the gun and shooter!!! I do not think this ammo will blow up the gun but I damn sure can tell you that the gun will not LIKE shooting this load for very long! I have been shooting .45 super in my 4506 for years but sparingly using loads that have almost double the standard ACP slide energy and have not seen any problem but the Rowland conversions have a comp on them for a reason...To add mass to the slide barrel unit and to direct some of the gas back to slow down the recoil. I personally would NOT shoot any of this 450 smc ammo in any recoil operated pistol that I own unless it was equipped with a heavy and effective comp. I would be interested to know just how many rounds it takes to break something on a 1911 shooing this stuff though so if anybody wants to try it please follow up with your results!
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Exactly. An effective compensator does a lot to take velocity off the slide and even reduce the violence of the unlocking in Browning-type tilting-barrel handguns. They also save quite a bit of wear and tear on the user, too!
 
ejb said:
I wouldn't be shooting many of these heavy hitters but don't mind changing springs and firing pin stop in order to protect my pistol.
Thoughts?
Click to expand...

It's probably a good idea to increase spring weight and change the firing pin stop. These rounds significantly increase the recoil and the mentioned changes will reduce the battering the gun takes.
 
Richard Jay King said:
Before everyone gets excited about making your 45 an elephant gun by simply buying this ammo...I have done the calculations using my Smith and Wesson 4506 which has a somewhat heavier slide than a standard 1911 and the kinetic energy in the slide when it hits the stop on recoil goes from about 9 joules up to 34 joules with the SMC! That is almost 4 times the energy that has to be absorbed by the gun and shooter!!! I do not think this ammo will blow up the gun but I damn sure can tell you that the gun will not LIKE shooting this load for very long! I have been shooting .45 super in my 4506 for years but sparingly using loads that have almost double the standard ACP slide energy and have not seen any problem but the Rowland conversions have a comp on them for a reason...To add mass to the slide barrel unit and to direct some of the gas back to slow down the recoil. I personally would NOT shoot any of this 450 smc ammo in any recoil operated pistol that I own unless it was equipped with a heavy and effective comp. I would be interested to know just how many rounds it takes to break something on a 1911 shooing this stuff though so if anybody wants to try it please follow up with your results!
Click to expand...

Good analysis, thanks for taking the time.

What I am going to say, is kinetic energy related to lethality? Does having 4X the kinetic energy deliver 4X the lethality? I don't think so, but these rounds are developed and sold on this assumption. So for 4X the recoil, what do you get, other than a big flinch?

Also, the developers of the 45 ACP were not looking for the maximum power out of a pistol, they were looking the minimum round that met their lethality standards. If they were looking for the maximum, they might have issued one of these, with a hand grip and trigger mechanism attached to the bottom:

1S9uzsT.jpg

Or one of these:

Iv5TTSY.jpg

I have seen lots and lots of cartridges producing more and more kinetic energy and yet, besides ear splitting blasts and flinch causing recoil, just how is all the noise and recoil related to killing?
 
Slamfire said:
I have seen lots and lots of cartridges producing more and more kinetic energy and yet, besides ear splitting blasts and flinch causing recoil, just how is all the noise and recoil related to killing?
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I guess in my mind you gain greater effective range in a hunting scenario and better penetration if using an appropriate bullet like a copper monolithic or a hard cast.

Could be a benefit if dealing with nasty or large critters, but only if you look at bullet choice and construction.

IMO, the actual energy numbers are only a single number expression of bullet weight and velocity. It doesn't mean anything too meaningful to me if the projectile type isn't considered. Different bullets do different things at different velocities when they hit a target.
 
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I have a .460 Rowland (XDm 5.25) and it's a beast. 1,000 ft/lbs from a 5" barrel is something potent indeed. I'd shoot it more if ammo/brass wasn't priced in the stratosphere.

I like the 10mm quite a bit more for it's versatility and it's no slouch. The .460R is simply a cannon.

35122872693_8d518c6b00_z.jpg
 
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Richard Jay King said:
Before everyone gets excited about making your 45 an elephant gun by simply buying this ammo...I have done the calculations using my Smith and Wesson 4506 which has a somewhat heavier slide than a standard 1911 and the kinetic energy in the slide when it hits the stop on recoil goes from about 9 joules up to 34 joules with the SMC! That is almost 4 times the energy that has to be absorbed by the gun and shooter!!! I do not think this ammo will blow up the gun but I damn sure can tell you that the gun will not LIKE shooting this load for very long! I have been shooting .45 super in my 4506 for years but sparingly using loads that have almost double the standard ACP slide energy and have not seen any problem but the Rowland conversions have a comp on them for a reason...To add mass to the slide barrel unit and to direct some of the gas back to slow down the recoil. I personally would NOT shoot any of this 450 smc ammo in any recoil operated pistol that I own unless it was equipped with a heavy and effective comp. I would be interested to know just how many rounds it takes to break something on a 1911 shooing this stuff though so if anybody wants to try it please follow up with your results!
Click to expand...

I have been toying with 45 super in my 4506.

Would there be an advantage to using .450 brass due to its small primer pocket preventing primer flow ?

have you experienced primer flow in your 4506 shooting large primer super brass ?
 
I lost interest after getting my Grizzly win mag .45 a quarter of a century ago. Col. Cooper was indeed correct IMHO about .45 acp being near the upper end of recoil impulse for quick combat shooting. Now on animals it is a bit different and that is why my Grizzly has a 6 inch ported barrel and rides in a chest holster . My son has a custom Glock 21 slide assembly and longer ported Barrel fothe .460 Roland for same duty.
 
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