What makes a various gun fall into its catagory?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Jun 29, 2019
Messages
700
As I read federal and various state laws on the definitions of handgun, rifles and shotguns i am left scratching my head.

Some things are more then obvious but others are not and almost always leaves someone asking the question of what a particular gun it is classified as.

Examples of this include the Mossberg Shockwave. Obviously a shotgun but classified as a AOW (Any other weapon).
Mossberg also has the Compact Cruiser also classified as a AOW but its also. NFA weapon with its 14” or 12” barrels.

Yet Perdasoli has a gun classified as pistol, non NFA that is effectively very similar to Mossberg’s Compact Cruiser in that it has 12” double barrel 20 gauge with a pistol grip.

I cant remember who exactly but someone also makes something similar to the Perdasoli and fires 45 colt with a pistol grip and a 12” double barrel.

You also have various versions of the “Mares Leg” guns both in a shotgun formation or bullet formation. Most all with various forms of pistol grips and barrels from 12”-14”

So if i were to design a gun (im not) but if i were, what would make it a pistol, or shotgun, or rifle, or AOW, or nfa item of a short barreled rifle/shotgun?

Thanks
 
As I read federal and various state laws on the definitions of handgun, rifles and shotguns i am left scratching my head.

Some things are more then obvious but others are not and almost always leaves someone asking the question of what a particular gun it is classified as.

Examples of this include the Mossberg Shockwave. Obviously a shotgun but classified as a AOW (Any other weapon).
The Mossberg Shockwave is definitely NOT an AOW, unless concealed on the person.

So if i were to design a gun (im not) but if i were, what would make it a pistol, or shotgun, or rifle, or AOW, or nfa item of a short barreled rifle/shotgun?
Federal law/ATF Regulations define each type of firearm in the Code of Federal Regulations.
CFR 478.11 Meaning of Terms:
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...0908fe00&mc=true&node=se27.3.478_111&rgn=div8
 
Moderator note: If your post disappeared, please go review the THR Legal Forum Guidelines.

With that said, and to answer the OP's question, . . . . . It's a matter of definitions. For legal purposes, a shotgun is a shotgun because lawmakers defined it that way. That may sound a little smart-alecky, but that's the way laws work. If you want to read the definitions yourself, go look at 18 USC 921. That's where you'll find the non-NFA definitions. If you want to know about NFA items, you'll need to read 26 USC 5845. Remember that a "firearm" for general purposes is not the same as a "firearm" for NFA purposes. Also, dogtown tom has already linked to the Code of Federal Regulations, which also comes into play. In theory, the definitional language should be the same as the statutes.
 
The shockwave is not an AOW, it is a ‘firearm’. As to similar pistols like the pedersoli, it is able to be because it has rifled barrels, otherwise a smooth bore pistols is an AOW.

A lot of it has to do with how you choose to register the item too. For example, you can register an AR receiver as either a pistol or a rifle. You can’t build the rifle to look like the pistol, but you could build the pistol to look like a rifle. However the now rifle that is registered as a pistol would fall under the regulation of a pistol.
 
A lot of it has to do with how you choose to register the item too. For example, you can register an AR receiver as either a pistol or a rifle. You can’t build the rifle to look like the pistol, but you could build the pistol to look like a rifle. However the now rifle that is registered as a pistol would fall under the regulation of a pistol.
In most states, you don't "register" an AR receiver. When you purchase a stripped AR lower, it's listed as "other" on the Form 4473. (Or at least that's the way it should be done.) Whether it ends up as a "rifle" or a "pistol" depends on the configuration when it's first built. Theoretically, a "pistol" can subsequently be remade into a "rifle," but a "rifle" cannot be made into a "pistol" without triggering the NFA. (That is, you can do it if you file a Form 1, pay the $200 tax, and wait for ATF approval.) But nobody is looking over your shoulder as you configure or reconfigure your stripped lower. This is all just as unenforceable as section 922(r). A lot of ink is spilled on these subjects in gun discussion forums, but as a practical matter nobody gives a damn. Even the ATF has better things to do.

ETA: Section 922(r) is important to manufacturers of guns with imported parts. It's not so important to end users.

ETA2: Reconfiguring a lower-receiver "rifle" into a "pistol" is one thing, but reconfiguring it into an SBR is something else entirely. One is plausible but the other is not.
 
Last edited:
The simple answer is that there is no simple answer.

So if you have a firearm with certain characteristics --

  1. To understand if it is subject to the National Firearms Act, and if so how the NFA applies, you must look at the provisions, including definitions, of the NFA.

  2. To understand if it is subject to the Gun Control Act of 1968, and if so how the GCA applies, you must look at the provisions, including definitions, of the GCA.

  3. To understand if it may be shipped using the USPS, you must look at USPS regulations.

  4. To understand how the laws of a State might apply, you must look at the laws of the particular State you're interested in. For example, the Taurus Judge might be just a handgun under the laws of State A, but it could be an illegal short barrel shotgun under the laws of State B.
 
In most states, you don't "register" an AR receiver. When you purchase a stripped AR lower, it's listed as "other" on the Form 4473. (Or at least that's the way it should be done.) Whether it ends up as a "rifle" or a "pistol" depends on the configuration when it's first built. Theoretically, a "pistol" can subsequently be remade into a "rifle," but a "rifle" cannot be made into a "pistol" without triggering the NFA. (That is, you can do it if you file a Form 1, pay the $200 tax, and wait for ATF approval.) But nobody is looking over your shoulder as you configure or reconfigure your stripped lower. This is all just as unenforceable as section 922(r). A lot of ink is spilled on these subjects in gun discussion forums, but as a practical matter nobody gives a damn. Even the ATF has better things to do.

ETA: Section 922(r) is important to manufacturers of guns with imported parts. It's not so important to end users.

ETA2: Reconfiguring a lower-receiver "rifle" into a "pistol" is one thing, but reconfiguring it into an SBR is something else entirely. One is plausible but the other is not.
When you pick up the receiver it’s just a firearm receiver yes. But if I configured it as an ar pistol without making an amendment on my pistol permit I would have an illegal pistol (at least in my state).

I am of the understanding that once a rifle, always a rifle. And not even a tax stamp can change that. You can make it an SBR, but not a pistol. At least from the legal perspective. This is what I encountered when I wanted to make a mosin “obrez”. But since all mosins ever made were registered as rifles, I could not create it as a pistol, I would have to create it as an SBR. Even if the configuration is exactly the same, legally it could not be a pistol.
 
It's also quite important to remember that state and federal laws are not consistent with regard to their definitions.

For example, the popular Taurus "Judge" which fires both the .45 Colt and .410 shotshells is not a "Short Barrel Shotgun" under the federal definition. But it is a "Short Barrel Shotgun" under California's definition.

You have to be real careful, in places like California, to use the California meaning of words, and not the common meaning of words.
 
Is the Pedersoli a muzzle loader? That changes everything as muzzle loaders are generally not even considered a firearm under many state and Federal statutes. That changes in some states if they are loaded. Even loaded they would not be considered a typically illegal gun requiring an NFA stamp under federal law.
 
When you pick up the receiver it’s just a firearm receiver yes. But if I configured it as an ar pistol without making an amendment on my pistol permit I would have an illegal pistol (at least in my state).
Most states don't have pistol permits. If your state does, OK, build the AR first as a pistol, amend your permit to cover it, document the build by taking photographs, and then reconfigure it as a rifle if so desired.
I am of the understanding that once a rifle, always a rifle. And not even a tax stamp can change that. You can make it an SBR, but not a pistol. At least from the legal perspective. This is what I encountered when I wanted to make a mosin “obrez”. But since all mosins ever made were registered as rifles, I could not create it as a pistol, I would have to create it as an SBR. Even if the configuration is exactly the same, legally it could not be a pistol.
This is incorrect. 26 U.S.C. section 5845(a) lists the categories of NFA weapons. The relevant portion is this:
(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
#3 is the classic SBR (designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder).
#4 would include a pistol "made from a rifle."

You can convert a rifle (that is, a lower receiver first built as a rifle) into either #3 or #4, by filing Form 1, paying the $200 tax, and waiting for ATF approval.

Since AR "pistols" are really workarounds to create an SBR-like weapon that doesn't come under the NFA, if you were to Form 1 such a thing, you would naturally Form 1 it as an SBR. So the distinction is really moot.
 
Moderator note: If your post disappeared, please go review the THR Legal Forum Guidelines.

With that said, and to answer the OP's question, . . . . . It's a matter of definitions. For legal purposes, a shotgun is a shotgun because lawmakers defined it that way. That may sound a little smart-alecky, but that's the way laws work. If you want to read the definitions yourself, go look at 18 USC 921. That's where you'll find the non-NFA definitions. If you want to know about NFA items, you'll need to read 26 USC 5845. Remember that a "firearm" for general purposes is not the same as a "firearm" for NFA purposes. Also, dogtown tom has already linked to the Code of Federal Regulations, which also comes into play. In theory, the definitional language should be the same as the statutes.

My thread question is of a legal nature, wanting to know the legality of various firearm forms. Thats why i asked it here.
 
Is the Pedersoli a muzzle loader? That changes everything as muzzle loaders are generally not even considered a firearm under many state and Federal statutes. That changes in some states if they are loaded. Even loaded they would not be considered a typically illegal gun requiring an NFA stamp under federal law.

No the perdasoli is not a muzzle loader. It loads 20 gauge shells. Just like the mares legs guns load 45 colt or 12 gauge shells
 
Most states don't have pistol permits. If your state does, OK, build the AR first as a pistol, amend your permit to cover it, document the build by taking photographs, and then reconfigure it as a rifle if so desired.

This is incorrect. 26 U.S.C. section 5845(a) lists the categories of NFA weapons. The relevant portion is this:
(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
#3 is the classic SBR (designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder).
#4 would include a pistol "made from a rifle."

You can convert a rifle (that is, a lower receiver first built as a rifle) into either #3 or #4, by filing Form 1, paying the $200 tax, and waiting for ATF approval.

Since AR "pistols" are really workarounds to create an SBR-like weapon that doesn't come under the NFA, if you were to Form 1 such a thing, you would naturally Form 1 it as an SBR. So the distinction is really moot.

See is a rifle having .... or a weapon modified

Im not talking any of those. No modifications.

If one starts from ground zero. Making their own everything.

What makes a rifle a rifle a Shotgun a shotgun and a pistol a pistol. We arent talking about buying receivers or barrels Or modifying any other gun.

BTW we are only talking about hypothetical legal questions here. I am by no means trying to design/build or manufacture any weapon from ground zero metal, or even a 3d printer or CNC machine.
 
In regards to the mossberg shockwave.
Many states it is still an illegal weapon because many view it as a Short Barreled Shotgun.

Texas had to make a special law to legalize the weapon in Texas. Because of course Mossberg is a Texas company and they are made here. Its classified simply as a firearm.

On Mosbergs own website they clearly have a statement from the ATF that the ATF does not view the Shockwave as a NFA item.
 
What makes a rifle a rifle a Shotgun a shotgun and a pistol a pistol. We arent talking about buying receivers or barrels Or modifying any other gun.
In the simplest terms, a rifle is a weapon that is designed to be fired from the shoulder, that has a rifled bore. A shotgun is a shoulder-fired weapon with a smooth bore. A pistol is a weapon that is designed to be fired with one hand. These aren't at all useful definitions, because they overlook even basic things like ignition systems. You have to supply more detail to see how a particular weapon fits into the categories set forth in the law.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top