Refute common anti gun talking points

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I no longer discuss guns and gun control with the ignorant and the naive. They have been brainwashed and I have found that all I do when discussing guns with them is elevate my blood pressure. My discussion doesn’t appear to elevate their intelligence so I no longer bother.
 
Right. The very fact that the modern sporting rifles are specifically designed to be semi auto and not select fire means they are weapons of civilians, not weapons of war.
This is nonsense. It doesn't matter what they are called. The point is that we have a right to own them precisely because they are efficient weapons. The fact that some people might misuse them doesn't negate their usefulness for the very purposes of the 2nd Amendment. You are buying into the mindset of the antigunners.

I bought my first AR-15 in 1968, at the age of 23. I didn't buy it because it was a "sporting rifle." I bought it because it was a clone of what the army was issuing. Over the years I have added many more, including several that are fully automatic. I'm not going to apologize for this. Damn right they are "weapons of war."
 
(See post #10) ------ And that is why I usually resort back to intractable procrustean dogmatism with these people.

Those headlines will sway people more than cold hearted logic will. People aren't being taught to THINK, only to feel.
Feeling doesn't require education—and therein lies the problem.

If you ask someone with no particular knowledge about guns, gun laws (including the Constitution) or history in general–in other words, the average US voter–how they feel about guns, they'll probably say they don't like them and should be illegal. To them, semi-auto, full auto, "assault rifle", sporting rifle, shotgun, handgun, revolver, pistol...whatever... they're all irrelevant details. Those voters are likely to support candidates for public office at all levels who share that opinion.

A logical, reasoned, intelligent and knowledgeable answer requires education and thought... active processes that too many people just can't be bothered with. It's for those reasons that I have come to reluctantly agree with your "intractable procrustean dogmatism."
 
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“The AR-15 is a Weapon of War”.

My approach:

"Gee, you may be right! What should be done?"

...and when they reply "ban them" or "confiscate them" or whatever, just ask them to explain in detail how they would go about implementing their plan. Pretty quickly they will realize it just will not work.

One does not have to disagree, just lead them to the logical conclusion for an illogical position.

You might even convert a few of them.
 
Anti talking point; no one wants to take your gun right away but reasonable regulations like universal background checks, waiting periods to cool off, restricted magazine capacity are necessary for safety, right?
Counter point because most anti gun folks are pro-choice; no one wants to take your abortion right away either, but you have to admit that age limits, parental notification, waiting period before the procedure, and education are reasonable right?
 
Anti talking point; no one wants to take your gun right away but reasonable regulations like universal background checks, waiting periods to cool off, restricted magazine capacity are necessary for safety, right?
Counter point because most anti gun folks are pro-choice; no one wants to take your abortion right away either, but you have to admit that age limits, parental notification, waiting period before the procedure, and education are reasonable right?
If voter ID is "racist", given the Jim Crow history of racially invidious gun controls, requiring ID to buy, own or carry a gun must be a thousand times as racist.
 
Right. The very fact that the modern sporting rifles are specifically designed to be semi auto and not select fire means they are weapons of civilians, not weapons of war.

No, the semi's are variants of the platform as both the AR and Mini-14 platforms come in full auto versions. Specifically designed - does that mean just a set of different parts. I don't get it.

As far as defense against tyranny - the comment about fighting the Army is naive, I'm afraid to say. One does not conceive of a set piece battle of an armored brigade against a bunch of nuts in pick up trucks. A population resists in a different manner of warfare. Also the current troop sizes (if they would take part - doubtful) is insufficient for the size of this country in resistance.

As far as being outgunned as the population has nice MSRs, which look like evil M4s but the Army has them - let me remind you that the bolt action primarily armed Germans and Japanese were no cake walks for the guys with Garands (the nice Battle weapon!).

Finally, there is a history of defense against tyranny but not in the way the gun world usually thinks about it. What is an example of tyranny in the USA? Is that AOC and Bernie will force Kale, Medicare for All and the Green New Deal upon your suffering souls? No, it is the state sponsored and enforced slavery and then Jim Crow laws of segregation. There is a clear and well documented scholarly history that armed civilians involved in the Civil Rights movement were crucial in resisting the state and local endorsed government and private forces that were to attack civil rights workers and African-American populations. Coupled with the peaceful demonstrations that exposed the racist tyranny - change was brought about. We note that in CA, conservative politicians fell all over themselves for new laws at the threat of African-Americans with arms.

Studies of genocide indicate that it doesn't happen against populations that have reasonable means of self-defense. You may get civil wars (which certainly are horrible) but genocides of helpless people are unlikely.

A liberal Democrat, Hubert Humphrey said:

"The right of citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible." -- Senator Hubert H. Humphrey (D-Minnesota)"


If you take away the defense against tyranny, there is no real reason to allow the ownership of guns of such lethal power as the AR, AK families. Are they really needed for self-defense? My good friend Mas Ayoob can make the case and has in some articles. Some judges have in cases where the need for firepower beyond 5 is enough has been shown. But that's rare and the antigunner will say the rampages outweigh those cases. Joe Biden points out that a double barrel shooting in the air or through the door should suffice (woe is me to the pizza guy!).

Well, saying that having the AR is God Given ain't going to work until God is on Meet the Press to tell Chuck Todd that. God could go on Rachel Maddow but she is already an AR fan and 1911 user. Takes her dates to shoot them. I guess Donald would go for that as he said the purpose of semis is entertainment.
 
...and when they reply "ban them" or "confiscate them" or whatever, just ask them to explain in detail how they would go about implementing their plan. Pretty quickly they will realize it just will not work.
This is an important point. I was even planning to start a separate thread on this.

In fighting against a proposed "assault weapons ban," "facts on the ground" (widespread ownership) is more important than the 2nd Amendment. If the Supreme Court follows the dicta in the Heller decision, it might not overturn an AWB. We can't rely on the Supreme Court. But the banners will have to deal with the 150 million (by their own estimates) AW's already in private hands. Any realistic "ban" would have to include grandfathering. But if you grandfather 150 million weapons, you really have no ban at all.

This was even brought up at Thursday night's Democratic candidate debate. (It was specifically raised by Chuck Todd.) All the candidates were for some type of AWB, but all of them -- except Eric Swalwell -- would allow grandfathering. Swalwell tried to put the others on the spot over this, but without success. It's no coincidence that Swalwell is gaining zero traction in his candidacy -- he's made gun control the entire rationale for it. The fact is, the Democrats are paper tigers on guns.
 
"All rights have limits. Even free speech. So your gun rights need to have [preferred limit here]."

OK, let's talk about free speech and the limits on it. What limits are there, actually?

Well, there are "time place manner" restrictions. You can't blast your music at 100db at 2am in a residential neighborhood in most places. OK, those kind of limits are already common regarding firearms - times and places you cannot fire guns, and even times and places you cannot possess guns. So we've already got that limit - and usually a more stringent variation of it.

There's also a "incitement to violence/clear and present danger/fire in a crowded theater" limit. OK, we already have those limits too. Just as I cannot escape all responsibility if I directly, immediately, and objectively threaten someone with my speech, if I directly, immediately, and objectively threaten someone with my gun, I will likely be arrested and charged with brandishing, assault, and/or reckless endangerment. So that limit, too, is already in place.

There's a limit on free speech that is in direct furtherance of an illegal action. So, for instance, I am not protected by my free speech rights if I use my speech to engage in a contract to fix prices on a commodity or tell a hit man to kill someone. Again, we already have the equivalent and more as a limit on guns - almost any crime done with a gun is more harshly punished than the same crime without a gun.

Now let's look at the kind of "reasonable limits" you're suggesting for guns, and see whether those have any similarity to the accepted limits on speech rights.
  • Limits on particular guns. Nope. We don't make the mere utterance of certain words illegal just because of their potential for harm. We haven't banned the words "white supremacy" or "klan" or "bomb" or "murder" or "hijack" or any number of other words that do have the potential to be used in terrible crimes. We punish their use when they are used specifically for a crime, but do not otherwise prohibit people from using them in non-criminal ways. And doing otherwise would clearly violate the right of free speech. This is not a "limit" on a right, just an excision of it.
  • Registration of guns. Nope. We don't make people pre-register their computers or typewriters, nor do we make them pre-submit their letters to the editor to the local or national authorities. We don't compel people to file all their politically-oriented statements with the government, either. Nothing along these lines would be even remotely permissible. This is not a "limit" that exists on other basic rights, for good reason.
  • Limits on who can speak. This is already a "limit" that exists on guns that would never be tolerated as to speech or other basic rights.
So when you say "all rights have limits," what you really seem to mean is that gun rights should be limited in a way that would never be allowed with other rights.
 
This is nonsense. It doesn't matter what they are called. The point is that we have a right to own them precisely because they are efficient weapons. The fact that some people might misuse them doesn't negate their usefulness for the very purposes of the 2nd Amendment. You are buying into the mindset of the antigunners.

I bought my first AR-15 in 1968, at the age of 23. I didn't buy it because it was a "sporting rifle." I bought it because it was a clone of what the army was issuing. Over the years I have added many more, including several that are fully automatic. I'm not going to apologize for this. Damn right they are "weapons of war."

That's a different argument, and one I was not making.

No, the semi's are variants of the platform as both the AR and Mini-14 platforms come in full auto versions. Specifically designed - does that mean just a set of different parts. I don't get it.

Yes, semi auto variants. Not the same. Not weapons of war. It's simple logic.

It's also, again, not my argument that we shouldn't be able to buy weapons of war, just my argument that modern sporting rifles are not by design the same guns the military uses and therefore not weapons of war.
 
Sometimes they will say " but the founders couldn't have envisioned such weapons". So I say ok then radio, internet, smart phones and television isn't covered under free speech since the founders couldn't have envisioned such communication devices.

But it doesn't matter, no matter how much logic and facts you give them in the end when they can't refute the argument they will go to name calling like " you gun fetish people hugging your guns while people die from them".

These days the AR-15 variant is the most popular rifle in America, if they do ban them they will have a hard time getting them back. Some states already did ban them and the registration and turn in rate has been low. Problem is though you will be a criminal now and no future guns will be legal.

Best thing to do, get people involved in shooting sports, then when it comes time to vote they won't be so ignorant.
 
Best thing to do, get people involved in shooting sports, then when it comes time to vote they won't be so ignorant.

In that vein, I've often wondered if the GWOT has helped shore up support for gun rights. Back in 1994, "high" capacity magazines and the term "semi-automatic" were used to confuse people who knew no better. Now, we have a generation with a high percentage of veterans who have fired REAL assault rifles, and been issued "high capacity" magazines. I'm certain that hasn't hurt the popularity of the AR family, and there are many more citizens out there who are NOT fooled by such things as the confusion between "automatic" and "semi-automatic" weapons.

It is absolutely true that the more hands on experience people have, the more they are prepared to resist propaganda on a given subject.
 
This is an old debate that correcting antigun folks on some aspect of naming will make any difference. It won't. If you haven't noticed the more intelligent antigun folks have moved to just calling for bans on semi auto guns totally. The name doesn't make a difference. The term MSSA - military style semi-auto has now started to be used.

So the AR isn't fully auto and not a weapon of war, chortles the gun person. Oh, says the antigun person, Patton said “In my opinion, the M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised”. Thus, gun person - at one time a weapon that was semi auto and only had a capacity of 8 rounds was a battle implement. Now, you claim that a semi auto that can have a capacity up to 30 or even 60 rounds cannot be considered a weapon of war.

Well, you are sunk. Also, by pointing out that the AR is nice because it isn't fully auto, you just bought into the NFA bans as those guns are EVIL.

It is the same for MSR usage. Who cares? I said it before and it drives folks nuts. You cannot reduce opposition by making the guns seem nice and sporting. That is not the purpose of the 2nd Amendment.

Headlines:

Gun ban proposed as madman uses assault rifle to kill 30.
Gun ban proposed as madman uses modern sporting rifle to use 30.

So the second headline reduces opposition to the ban?

If you point out that other guns are equally lethal, that has been baked in. The anti folks go for the AR because of their appearance and they regard it as an easy target. Then, your point that other guns are equally lethal will lead to an expansion of bans on limited capacity (modified semis that exist in some states and countries with fixed mags), lever action and pump guns. Guns that avoided the bans such as the Mini-14s will be banned as smarter folks figure that out and nuts used them. The same will go for 10/22s as they have been used.

The terminology battle with the risky caveat of full vs semi, is a losing strategy. Folks think it is clever. It is not. It is angels on the head of a pin in the scope of the conflict.

Unless, gun folks can make the case that possessing inherently lethal and deadly weapons (not nice ones) are protected by the 2nd Amend. to protect oneself and protect against tyranny - the battle is lost. No nice terms, sporting, competition, collecting or hunting usage matters. Unfortunately, the gun world messaging sucks in general from the major organizational player. We don't want to redo that cluster debate.

re: 'lethal weapon', when in London:

20190701_174050.jpg
 
The weapons of war logic is flawed along with all their other arguments. Every type of firearm was once a weapon of war… Once full auto firearms are no longer "weapons of war" does that mean civilians will be allowed to own them since they are no longer weapons of war?

It's just emotional language used to make AR-15's sound bad. It's kind of a stupid term to hang their hats on since any actual military models are not available for sale to civilians. It's just the replacement for the "assault weapon" terminology that was equally meaningless but not quite as catchy and hysterical sounding.
 
But if you grandfather 150 million weapons, you really have no ban at all.

AA we to sure exactly how many SA military firearms but the estimate of all firearms is in excess of 200 million. I'm not sure there are as many semi facsimiles of military firearms are out there.

I'd suggest not allowing the anti's to call firearms a weapon .As a firearm owner I do not recall participating in a mass shooting. "Weapons" is all about use. A firearm is mechanical artifact. Such becomes a weapon by use. Kinda like a golf club or baseball bat.

Without yelling or screaming ask the anti how are these firearms to be monitored. What agency?. How big do you think this enforcement agency will be? Are we talking warrantless searches or what? How about demographics of gun violence in America. That last one is a real hot potato.

Addendum: Some of the Constitutional arguments used by the anti's against 2A are exactly the same as the radical attack on the First Amendment.
 
On NPR this morning there was a discussion of California background checks for ammunition purchases. The goal was to restrict the availability of ammunition. That was it. Not to reduce crime, or violent crime, or murders, or to make society safer in any measurable way. Simply to restrict the availability of ammunition. That is the benefit to society. If people are willing to accept and support the idea that the goal, the benefit to society, is nothing more than to restrict the civil rights of patriotic law-abiding citizens, what argument is there? There is no other goal. Gun control's only purpose is oppression. Those I know who support gun control are not stupid or thoughtless, but they are willing to allow politicians to play on their fears, and throw away their (and their children's) rights, to support oppression, because they believe it is the proper course of action. When I explain my perspective to them, they understand, but disagree. Some of these people I love, and would die for, but there you are.
 
I heard an NPR discussion and had a slightly different take. Note this does not mean I agree with the discussion. The interviewer asked some reporter as to the purpose of the background check. He said it was to make sure that the ammo went to folks who had legal guns in CA. I assume it means that these are guns that are registered in CA. You need to have a legal gun in CA to buy ammo and the data base shows this. How - I regret I don't know the details of CA laws and procedures.

They also talked about how this will act against the usage of ghost guns as they are not registered as legal guns and thus cannot have ammo purchased for them alone. An officer was killed by one recently, it seems.

That was my take on the conversation. Correct me if I am wrong. I clearly think that this is an infringement on the RKBA but such laws will be the wave of the future. I wouldn't trust the current SCOTUS to void such a law, even with the so-called progun 5 justices. However, that is an empirical question.
 
Ammo control: To ban or restrict the cartridges I've heard before. This idea is from from an individual some time back. Cleaning up here came up on a 7.92 Mauser round made in 1915. Gave my 1903-1905 dated 30-03 to a collector friend. I'm not sure our friends realize what they are suggesting. Other than 22RF, I have not bought factory cartridges in some years. Basically, there are tons of cartridges out there. Many of use have not bought any factory rounds in years.
 
I heard an NPR discussion and had a slightly different take. Note this does not mean I agree with the discussion. The interviewer asked some reporter as to the purpose of the background check. He said it was to make sure that the ammo went to folks who had legal guns in CA. I assume it means that these are guns that are registered in CA. You need to have a legal gun in CA to buy ammo and the data base shows this. How - I regret I don't know the details of CA laws and procedures.

They also talked about how this will act against the usage of ghost guns as they are not registered as legal guns and thus cannot have ammo purchased for them alone. An officer was killed by one recently, it seems.

That was my take on the conversation. Correct me if I am wrong. I clearly think that this is an infringement on the RKBA but such laws will be the wave of the future. I wouldn't trust the current SCOTUS to void such a law, even with the so-called progun 5 justices. However, that is an empirical question.

In the right circumstances, it could go to 7 pro-gun justices in less than six years, just a thought ...
 
I heard an NPR discussion and had a slightly different take. Note this does not mean I agree with the discussion. The interviewer asked some reporter as to the purpose of the background check. He said it was to make sure that the ammo went to folks who had legal guns in CA. I assume it means that these are guns that are registered in CA. You need to have a legal gun in CA to buy ammo and the data base shows this. How - I regret I don't know the details of CA laws and procedures.
I, too, am ignorant of the laws in California. I hadn't considered the comparing of a list of guns registered to a person to the requested ammo purchase.
So, if a confirmed wheelgun fanatic gets invited to a range session by a friend who is a 9mm fan on the proviso that said wheelgun fan spring for the ammo he's going to use, he couldn't buy it because all of his guns are revolvers?
 
just my argument that modern sporting rifles are not by design the same guns the military uses and therefore not weapons of war.
Not persuasive. An AR-15 looks from 3 feet away like a standard army M16, and it functions the same except for the full-automatic capability (which is seldom used by the military anyway). (And the differences would be even less noticeable to someone unfamiliar with guns.) I'm totally comfortable calling them "weapons of war." In fact that makes our position stronger, because "weapons of war" are precisely the ones the 2nd Amendment is designed to protect. The government could ban all purely hunting guns without running afoul of the 2nd Amendment. The 2nd Amendment is not about hunting, or sporting purposes generally.
 
I, too, am ignorant of the laws in California. I hadn't considered the comparing of a list of guns registered to a person to the requested ammo purchase.
So, if a confirmed wheelgun fanatic gets invited to a range session by a friend who is a 9mm fan on the proviso that said wheelgun fan spring for the ammo he's going to use, he couldn't buy it because all of his guns are revolvers?

erm ... :what::what::what:

List of Places NOT to live:
https://www.concealedcarry.com/law/are-guns-registered/
 
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