Is data from old stolen gun reports still in effect and does it matter?

cjwils said:

I have had guns stolen in home burglaries on two occasions many years apart in two states. Both times, the guns were locked up in small safes that thieves were able to remove from my house. (But this post is not about safes.) Both crimes were investigated by local police.

The first theft happened in California in 1986. Local police investigated and filed a report, which included descriptions and serial numbers of five stolen guns (I still have a copy of the report). I assume that some state or national stolen gun database existed back then, and that my guns’ data was entered therein, but I am not certain.

The second theft occurred in Washington State in 2014. I have a copy of the police report that specifically states that data about my four stolen guns including makes, models, and serial numbers was entered in the national database (NCIC) and in the Washington State database, called WACIC.

I have moved several times since the California theft. It would be difficult for the local police there to find me now, if they wanted to. However, I still live at the same address as the 2014 Washington State theft.

My questions:

1. Did a national database, or a California database exist in 1986? If so, is there a way that I could provide my present address regarding the guns stolen in 1986 so that I could be contacted if guns are recovered?

2. Is there any time limit on data in NCIS or WACIC?

3. If any of my guns are recovered my police, will they actually check data bases and try to contact me?


This paragraph is slightly off from my questions above, but a few years after the theft in California, the local police department there contacted me to say that one of my guns had been recovered at a crime scene in another city, and they were following up to see if the gun had been returned to me. I told them I knew nothing about that; the other city had never contacted me about returning my gun. They did some research and contacted me again to say the other city had destroyed my gun after the trial.

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I had a gun stolen and then returned by the police after a drug raid turned it up. This was in Texas. I believe they traced it through the 4473s.

The NCIC database did exist back in the 80's. Guns are allowed to remain in the system permanently. BUT, and this is a big BUT.

Each year the entry has to be validated. The entering agency has to contact the person who reported the theft to verify that the gun has not been recovered or found. This is typically done by telephone contact. It's the responsibility of the reporting person to keep their information up to date with the agency that made the entry. If the agency is unable to confirm that the gun is still unrecovered it will be removed from the system. If no contact is made by the phone call and/or has no voicemail or other means to receive a message and return the call, the gun will be deleted. Depending on the size of the agency they may have to make thousands of contacts per month so don't expect repeat attempts or mail notification. This process applies to all stolen items that are entered. TV's cars etc.... IIRC cars are automatically deleted after five years.

Given the states and time that has passed I would bet they've been melted down.

If you do happen to get your guns back I would say you're modestly luckly.

Deleted, previous poster Thomas Mayberry explained it better than I could. I had forgotten about the yearly contact required. A chore our detectives thoroughly enjoyed

I ran the property room for a hundred man agency in south Florida some years ago for about two years... Whenever a firearm is entered into the national system and is recovered anywhere in the country - a message is sent to the originating agency notifying them of the recovery. That agency has the responsibility of notifying the victim or whoever made the initial report and on many occasions the victim/reporter was not able to be contacted at all since they'd moved away and never notified us of their new address or contact info.... At the same time it's the responsibility of the whoever entered the property into the system to remove the entry once the listed property is recovered... That means that there's always a possibility that a stolen message was never cancelled after a recovery if whatever outfit that was supposed to clear it failed their responsibility... I always advised my officers when I was working the street to do their best to verify any stolen property messages -before taking action against whoever they found in possession of an item that had a stolen message - before making an arrest if possible... Otherwise they might have to "un-arrest" someone hours later at the station after finding out that the message they acted on was no longer valid.... Once or twice over the years I found myself in that situation over a "stolen" car, gun, or other property that never should have still been a valid message - but that was years ago... I have no idea what the procedures are today. Requiring every agency to validate their existing stolen messages periodically makes very good sense to me....

I always figured that firearms are forever since most will still work just fine if cared for - long after the original owner has passed away. In the world we live in today we're all pretty mobile and a stolen/recovery first entered ten or more years ago many times doesn't contain current info of how to contact the listed owner (victim or reporter). We always sent out a notification to the listed address and occasionally we'd hear from them after the post office forwarded their mail (if they left a forwarding address...). If no contact was made the recovered property was disposed of - per existing statutes....

I have a friend who had a gun stolen in the early 1980's. It was recovered about 15 years later about 70 miles north of here and he was able to get it back. I had a gun stolen in October 2013. It was recovered one month later in the next county south of here. But they won't release it to me until after the case goes to trial.

Hard to believe that they haven't had a trial for almost 6 years. The officer who runs their property room and I have gotten to know each other quite well. I used to call about every other month. Then every 6 months, and now about once a year. The last time I called was January. He placed a call to their DA then called me back and said the trial wasn't on the calendar for 2019 at all. Call back in 2020.

I had the police in another state call me and tell me they had a recovered a gun that had been stolen. Weird thing was, I have never even owned the model of gun they said was mine.

I had a Colt Pony .380 (SN: ML03841) stolen in April of 1999 and reported to the Albuquerque Police Department. Nobody has contacted me even once, even though I still have the same cell phone number that I provided at the time of the theft. I have moved since, but the cell number is still the same.

A stolen gun was recovered in Michigan a while back after over 40 years. Itwas retuned to the of next of kin of the person it was stolen from as he had passed away.

I had a pistol stolen back around 1994. I contacted the local Sheriff and entered the one report. I never contacted them again, they never contacted me.

Sometime around 1999 or so, I get a call from the Big City Police about 50 miles away. They had my pistol in the property room.
I went and fetched it, signed the papers, etc. They wouldn't release the ammo to me, I recognized my reloads.
I was told I would have to come back the next day to claim the ammo.
I never went back.

Still have that pistol, a Star 30MI that I purchased new.

cjwils said:

I have had guns stolen in home burglaries on two occasions many years apart in two states. Both times, the guns were locked up in small safes that thieves were able to remove from my house. (But this post is not about safes.) Both crimes were investigated by local police.

I have moved several times since the California theft. It would be difficult for the local police there to find me now, if they wanted to. However, I still live at the same address as the 2014 Washington State theft.

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It's important to file a change of address on any extant reports.

My questions:
1. Did a national database, or a California database exist in 1986? If so, is there a way that I could provide my present address regarding the guns stolen in 1986 so that I could be contacted if guns are recovered?

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I ran the ccIC/NCIC terminal at Fort Carson in 1977, so yes.

2. Is there any time limit on data in NCIC or WACIC?

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That depends on the department, some have requirements about it being doublechecked as still a valid report.[/QUOTE]

3. If any of my guns are recovered by police, will they actually check data bases and try to contact me.

This paragraph is slightly off from my questions above, but a few years after the theft in California, the local police department there contacted me to say that one of my guns had been recovered at a crime scene in another city, and they were following up to see if the gun had been returned to me. I told them I knew nothing about that; the other city had never contacted me about returning my gun. They did some research and contacted me again to say the other city had destroyed my gun after the trial.

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Well, that answers your third question about what some random department does with the information. Varies greatly.

As just noted... what they’re supposed to do isn’t always complied with by one agency or other (or some employee...).

What I’d recommend to anyone reporting the theft or loss of a weapon is to start and keep an info file on it. Start with whatever paperwork you have (you still have your bill of sale and any manufacturer’s papers don’t you? )... Add to that a copy of your police report (the agency and case number is everything..). Then, if you move and report your new address and other contact info... make a point of getting a copy of the supplemental report (should have the original case number...) to verify that the info was actually entered. Not every agency member behaves responsibly...

Firearms are forever and always can be mis-used in the wrong hands so these few precautions take on some additional meaning - far beyond any cash or sentimental value. Done right, you’ll provide the info that your family might need - long after you’re not around any more...

jmr40 said:

I have a friend who had a gun stolen in the early 1980's. It was recovered about 15 years later about 70 miles north of here and he was able to get it back. I had a gun stolen in October 2013. It was recovered one month later in the next county south of here. But they won't release it to me until after the case goes to trial.

Hard to believe that they haven't had a trial for almost 6 years. The officer who runs their property room and I have gotten to know each other quite well. I used to call about every other month. Then every 6 months, and now about once a year. The last time I called was January. He placed a call to their DA then called me back and said the trial wasn't on the calendar for 2019 at all. Call back in 2020.

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Did I miss out on something? Doesn't the Constitution say a trial must take place within one year or the suspect must be turned loose?

I had one stolen in 1989, and recovered (and returned to me) in 1992. The recovering agency was able to reach me despite two factors:

1) I had moved without providing an updated address, and

2) No one from any agency had contacted me on an annual basis to make sure the gun was still missing, nor had I told anyone myself.

mcmurry said:

Did I miss out on something? Doesn't the Constitution say a trial must take place within one year or the suspect must be turned loose?

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Depending on pre-trial motions, delays, etc. it can take quite awhile. Any requirement for a speedy trial goes out the window when it's the defendant requesting delays. Delays are, in theory, good for the defendant as people's memories might fade, stories might change and, let's face it, people involved in the case might die.

You'll also have charges that simply wait since the individual is in the wind... and will have to be found and locked up again before they can try 'em... You also end up with cases that are being appealed (particularly capitol cases...) where the evidence needs to be held seemingly forever (or until some judge decides it's no longer necessary...).

In my era we also ran into problems where the courts simply never notified anyone of much of anything ( I served during the height of the "cocaine cowboys" era when Miami and related areas were so wild and crazy that we had armed robbers dressed as cops -heck, some of them were cops...), and that's just one of many things I hope to never see again... Bad cops, dirty judges and so much cash money floating around that the bad guys carried cash in ordinary brown grocery bags... Probably not surprising that I seldom ever met a cop that wanted his or her kids to get into police work in those days....

On my one and only shooting as a police officer.. the detectives that investigated my incident were all charged with felonies themselves within two years of my case.... Thank heavens it didn't involve my agency (the county did our officer shooting cases back then in the seventies). You simply couldn't tell the bad guys from the good guys many days.... Glad all of that is history for some years now.

My Iver Johnson TP22 was stolen and reported in 1989 when I lived up in Nor Cal. It was recovered from some crazy guy found in an electrical company yard in 1991, but the deputy just booked it for “safekeeping” and never ran the serial. I wasn’t ever contacted by the sheriffs office, and I moved to the LA area in 1990.

In 1993 I was working a shift at the dispatch desk at my first PD and the property clerk from Humboldt County SO called to see if I worked there. She was sending it for destruction when she saw no NCIC printout was attached. She ran it, got my DL number from my report (the #@/;$& deputy should have done this!), ran the DL and then contacted me at the PD. She apologized for the deputy’s mistakes and sent me the gun and a copy of the original report.

If I hold the magazine just right I can still make out the case number written on it in marker.

When officers/deputies make mistakes like this one, most of the time it’s not caught by a sharp-eyed clerk and these guns get made into rebar and manhole covers ...

it’s always a good idea to be more diligent with follow up than I was, I will freely admit I got lucky.

Stay safe.

Thanks for posting this - I was a bit shy of saying what everyone in the law enforcement community is aware of - that sometimes an individual drops the ball -and everyone suffers as a result. The stolen item that's not entered properly (be nice to know for a young cop that the car he's stopping was reported stolen.. or that the weapon being checked was taken in a homicide...) but these things happen... all too often. That's why I suggested a victim get a copy of the initial report and do a bit of diligence to verify that all the info is correct and updated when you move over time.

You got very lucky in that recovery...

If you really want the correct answer, contact the agency that took the report.
And as far as notification, if the gun is to be destroyed (many places require destruction of guns used by criminals) why should they waste the manpower required to contact the owner? Andy has retired as sheriff of Mayberry.

Just as a note:
A friends pistol was stolen and after 5 or 6 months he chose to take his home ins payment on it. About a year he got a call and for what ever reason he got a call from the ins.. LEO apparently called them when they found his pistol. Needless to say the ins. said he would have to give back his ins pay out to get it back. Seems if you take ins pay out it becomes theirs.

Sounds like a square dealing outfit..... They get a thumbs up from this corner for being willing to explain the process in depth to their customer...

Locally, there is a rumor that serial numbers are not reported. I had personally witnessed three incidents. One was a friend had bought a used Ruger Security Six from a police jobber. The gun was transferred to a dealer in this state. The gun, in this state, had a hit as stolen on the NCIC computer. Police jobber was not happy that agency from which the handgun came had came not reported the gun as recovered.

The other incident happened when a handgun was reported stolen. The gun was lost as a soon to be divorced wife took her stuff and left. Handgun appeared to have disappeared. Soon to be ex-husband reported handgun stolen. Handgun turned up in his stuff. Called the local police agency to report hand gun found. Years later he had attempted to sell gun on consignment. Gun had never been removed from the NCIC computer. Lost a sale as the new customer was wary and got a refund.

One of the officers at our local club has an active firearms business including Class III. He had a burglary. Numbers were supplied to police. ATF became involved. Later, ATF agent called to find out when firearms were recovered. Turn out numbers had never been reported.

The TBI handles clearances and the like in Tennessee. See how important it is to have your serial numbers of your firearms. The weak link is the local agencies. Dealers can now do searches for serial numbers. Guns are picked up at the store immediately when the gun get a hit by TBI agents.. In past years this has happened to me twice in pawn shops buying handguns. The local police had an officer who was to run numbers on pawn shops inventory. Somebody, dropped that ball.

Point being it's an act of faith that anything being done with those serial numbers. Locally, if the numbers are reported something will happen if the gun shows. Around here it is hit or miss if the number has been reported.