In order to get a suppressor for a firearm, one must apply and pay for a tax stamp from the government. But what if a manufacturer were to build a firearm that was designed with features that suppressed the muzzle blast without it having to be added to the firearm? The barrel of the firearm and the suppressing feature within it would be all one unit. Therefore, it could be a firearm that simply shoots quieter than others by the way it is built rather than because of an external attachment being added to the muzzle. It would be internal because it's included in the design. Would this be possible?
Could an integrally suppressed firearm be legal without tax stamp?
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Theohazard
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A silencer is legally a silencer (and therefore requires a tax stamp) whether it’s removable or permanently attached to the firearm.
Which isn't considered a silencer because it's on a muzzleloader (which isn't considered a true firearm to begin with under the law).
SilencerCo also makes the Maxim9 pistol which has an integral silencer. You still have to pay the money and wait just like any other can.
SilencerCo also makes the Maxim9 pistol which has an integral silencer. You still have to pay the money and wait just like any other can.
HankB
Member
The only "non-NFA" method of quieting a modern firearm I'm aware of is by making the barrel longer. Some years back, someone found they could appreciably quiet a shotgun by doubling or even tripling the barrel length, but for obvious reasons this never caught on.
Silenced revolver ammunition with a captive piston was produced for the US military, and I believe the Soviets did something similar as well, but I'm pretty sure the BATmen determined the individual rounds were themselves NFA items.
Silenced revolver ammunition with a captive piston was produced for the US military, and I believe the Soviets did something similar as well, but I'm pretty sure the BATmen determined the individual rounds were themselves NFA items.
Quiet
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That only applied to Federal laws, when you take into account the various State laws, the SilencerCo Maxim 50 ended up being illegal in three States (CA, MA, NJ) due to those States laws being more strict on what a "firearm" and a "silencer" is.
Yes they can, you use a Form 1. Still $200.
Telekinesis
Member
Yeah, you just need to do a form 1 (make) instead of a form 4 (transfer), both of which are $200 stamps. Exact same process as taking an AR and turning it into a SBR. You obviously need to wait to get the form/stamp back before beginning construction.
There's a lot of good info on building form 1 suppressors out there. If you're interested I would definitely take a look. Most of the good ones require access to a lathe though.
Keep in mind that each registration is good for 1 suppressor only. You can't build multiples (without multiple approved forms) and you can not make prototypes to determine the best setup for the final can. After you build the suppressor you can not have spare parts laying around. You also can not build replacement parts (for example, you can't replace a baffle if you get a baffle strike). For that type of thing you would need to go to a 07/02 FFL/SOT.
The only way to get looser rules regarding manufacturing suppressors is to start a business with an 07/02 (which comes with other requirements and issues). The bright side is that once you have the 07/02, you can register the suppressors on a form 2 (which is a "notice of manufacture") once you build the can - so no waiting for permission and no unit-level tax stamp.
Sounds like too much trouble to be worthwhile. Best to stick with ear muffs. At least those aren't regulated or taxed or registered.
Telekinesis
Member
NFA registration/paperwork really isn't that bad. Nothing too intrusive, you don't give up any rights, you just have to pay a tax and learn to wait while the government processes your form. If you can pass a NICS check, you can pass the background check for NFA.
With form 1 suppressors, it just ends up being a lot of research on the front end to make sure you know what you're doing. Once you know what you need to build and have the skills to do it, it shouldn't be difficult. If it's your first can, I'd definitely recommend buying a factory suppressor. There are some really expensive ones out there, but you can also find some great deals.
I would recommend that you buy at least one can (or find someone who has one) and give it a try. It really is a much more enjoyable way to shoot. .22 LR cans are a great place to start as they're generally not too expensive and they do a great job of quieting the gun.
sparkyv
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I once stood by another shooter with a CZ455 Ultra Lux that was incredibly quiet. He told me he was shooting SV ammo. I could not believe it! So cool, i've had the Ultra Lux (28.6" bbl) on "the List" ever since.
dogtown tom
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You can make any NFA firearm other than a machine gun, by completing a Form 1. Once its returned approved you can make your silencer/AOW/SBS/SBR.
jmorris
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Not that they haven’t ever changed their minds and redefined things but stuff liked this has been given the go ahead.
The Law is “The term “Firearm Silencer” or “Firearm Muffler” means any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, ...”
Start focusing too hard on things that could diminish the report of a firearm and a building, automobile a pillow or even a lot of land could be a “firearm muffler” as a factor in “diminishing the report” of a firearm but I can cite no cases where anyone was arrested, charged or convicted by just the fact that they owned a firearm and one or multiple of the above. Seems like “portable” may lean towards “attached and portable”.
Even a guy named Archimedes back in the day (c. 287 BC – c. 212 BC) claimed the earth was portable if you gave him a lever, fulcrum and place to stand.
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P5 Guy
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No matter how well the suppressor reduces the sound of a shot, it still is plenty loud.
The only firearm I have seen/heard shot that was very quiet was a rimfire rifle shooting CB caps.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
I think you are probably deal with the issue of the supersonic crack being the major culprit.
P5 Guy
Member
Granted, even subsonic 9mm is recognizable as a gun shot.
Folks at my local range fire a variety of suppressed firearms from AR15s thru 22LR handguns. I would not want to be exposed to the noise from even the quietest for any length of time.
Carl N. Brown
Member
OP bottom line: If a device is designed as a cartridge firing firearms silencer (muffler or sound suppressor, same thing), it is a NFA Title II Silencer whether it is integral to the barrel or detachable.
If we go into a general discussion about silencers, this thread may be moved from Legal or it may get locked.
If we go into a general discussion about silencers, this thread may be moved from Legal or it may get locked.
icanthitabarn
Member
I know very little about them but we had a guy at the club that was shooting a .223, single shot pistol of some sort at 100 yds. with his suppressor. He was shooting around 1/2 inch groups and the sound was like a .22 rifle, from my memory. I purposely removed my muffs to see.
Good Ol' Boy
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IMHO the best alternative to a can is subsonic ammo out of a regular gun.
AK103K
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One advantage to a permenatly attached suppressor is, it can be only "one" tax stamp on a SBR. You still have to pay the tax, but you dont have two pay one for each, as long as the can makes the "barrel" longer than 16", and is permanently attached.
My BIL buys a Gamo air rifle, with a permanently attached suppressor on the end of the barrel, and it is legal, as long as you have to destroy the barrel to get it off.
Both are nonguns, but one is legal, and the other not. Just more typical nonsensical rules from the ATF. And rules that can/will get your ass in a wringer, if youre not careful.
I cant shoot a .22 rifle from the same spot, without losing most of my hearing for a couple of days. Thats how bad my ears are.
One other noticable thing with the suppressor on is, you can actually hear little critters "pop" when you hit them. The first time I shot a bunny in the garden, there was a strange pop, like a bassy balloon popping. I thought at first the round went through and hit something behind it. When in fact, it was the bunny exploding from a Nosler BT running around 3000fps.
Ive also shot my Glock 17 in the same spot dispatching a critter, and my son, whos room is right off the carport, and has a window in it, thought Id "dropped" something. He didnt think it was a shot, when in fact, it was two quick shots. And he was right, I did "drop" something.
The way I equate the sound of subsonic 9mm coming out of my AAC Eco-9 that has ablative added, is more like a heavy car door closing, or maybe a air nailer. A lot depends on conditions and its not always the same. It usually doesnt sound like a "gun shot" tough, which is really what the point is. It doesnt really silence things, just makes it not sound as much like a gun shot.
My ears are pretty bad, from a lot of years of both protected and unprotected gun fire, and exposure to loud heavy equipment and heavy construction environments. While I can shoot both my AR's and suppressed handguns without wearing ear plugs, it only goes so far before I notice my ears starting to hurt. Its not like they were unprotected, but after about 50 rounds of 5.56, and about double that of 9mm, my ears are "sore", for lack of a better term, and sound in general at the end of the day, is "dull".
You really need to watch things when it comes to stuff like this. Back in the early 2000's, my son bought a paintball gun off a buddy, and it came with a homemade, removeable "suppressor" on it. A couple of pieces of PVC pipe stuffed with Chore Boy scrubbies. I was telling my buddy, who was an FFL, and he tells me its still considered a suppressor by the ATF, and showed me the cite in the rule book. Kind of silly, but there it was.
My BIL buys a Gamo air rifle, with a permanently attached suppressor on the end of the barrel, and it is legal, as long as you have to destroy the barrel to get it off.
Both are nonguns, but one is legal, and the other not. Just more typical nonsensical rules from the ATF. And rules that can/will get your ass in a wringer, if youre not careful.
I have an AAC M4-2000 suppressor from my 5.56 AR's. According to AAC, it eliminates something like 95-97% of the muzzle blast, and I pretty much believe them. I can shoot it from my carport, without ear plugs, and all you hear is the crack of the round going down range, which can vary with distance.
I cant shoot a .22 rifle from the same spot, without losing most of my hearing for a couple of days. Thats how bad my ears are.
One other noticable thing with the suppressor on is, you can actually hear little critters "pop" when you hit them. The first time I shot a bunny in the garden, there was a strange pop, like a bassy balloon popping. I thought at first the round went through and hit something behind it. When in fact, it was the bunny exploding from a Nosler BT running around 3000fps.
Ive also shot my Glock 17 in the same spot dispatching a critter, and my son, whos room is right off the carport, and has a window in it, thought Id "dropped" something. He didnt think it was a shot, when in fact, it was two quick shots. And he was right, I did "drop" something.
The way I equate the sound of subsonic 9mm coming out of my AAC Eco-9 that has ablative added, is more like a heavy car door closing, or maybe a air nailer. A lot depends on conditions and its not always the same. It usually doesnt sound like a "gun shot" tough, which is really what the point is. It doesnt really silence things, just makes it not sound as much like a gun shot.
My ears are pretty bad, from a lot of years of both protected and unprotected gun fire, and exposure to loud heavy equipment and heavy construction environments. While I can shoot both my AR's and suppressed handguns without wearing ear plugs, it only goes so far before I notice my ears starting to hurt. Its not like they were unprotected, but after about 50 rounds of 5.56, and about double that of 9mm, my ears are "sore", for lack of a better term, and sound in general at the end of the day, is "dull".
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