fxvr5
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Easy solution. Stop going to the range.
S&W M&P Early Model .38 Special and +P Ammo
- Thread starter Gun Master
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Easy solution. Stop going to the range.
skeeterfogger
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I happened to get a mixed in +p in my dads sw 38 sp. Luckily it didn't hurt the gun but it was definatly shocking surprise. I for sure would not suggest it. Or anything other than lead.
A lighter alternative in a 357 it works well.
A lighter alternative in a 357 it works well.
The Evangelist Cowboy
Member
Go out and talk to them. We need the younger guys when we are gone, who will tell them of Elmer Keith, John Taffin, Brian Pearce, Bill Jordan, Skeeter Skelton, etc? Surely not Mr. Tactical Instructor who says if it isn't a Glock it ain't right. I'm a younger guy myself (26) been shooting magnums for over 15 years.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
And how are they supposed to get that experience without shooting heavy loads at the range? Shooting the lightest loads at the range won't help them gain experience, will it?
ThomasT
Member
Finally someone who gets it. If you have an early 38 special your gun is strong enough for the original pressure 38 ammo no matter if the cylinder is heat treated or not. The original BP 38 special loads gave between 100-150fps more speed than the 38 long colt round. And did it with a 158gr bullet. The 38 long colt was loaded to 760fps with a 150gr hollow base bullet from a 6" barrel. The new 38 special loads with a 158gr solid base bullet were getting between 850 and 900fps from a 6" barrel. About what most 38 special +P is rated for now.
But in shooting one of the really old 38's its not the velocity you have to worry about as much as its the bullet hardness. If you look down the barrel of some of those original guns you will see the lands and grooves are about equal. Those old guns displace a lot of lead. Shooting a jacketed or hard cast lead bullet can put a lot of strain on the barrel and if shooting a light pressure load could even stick a bullet in the bore. So the best loads to use will have a softer lead bullet in the case. I can't take credit for this information. Gil Sengal of Rifle/Handloader magazine wrote about this in one of his articles. And it makes a lot of sense.
The best way to shoot a 38 special is to handload for it. And for those who said you don't have to shoot full power loads all the time you are correct. I shoot loads that are in the 750-800fps range all the time. I have several boxes and cans of loads loaded to that power level. But also load and shoot full power 38 special loads. I also load my own +P loads that would scare factory +P stuff. Mine is more like the old 38/44 loads. I don't own any of the older earlier S&W guns. I wish I did. They are classic guns from a time when quality really meant something.
GunMaster,
I have taken to not shooting +P .38 Special ammo in guns not rated for +P or the .357 magnum. I can shoot REMINGTON 125 grain +P .38 Specials all day in my RUGER Security Six, but I do not shoot them all the time in my S&W model 15, which is a K-frame like the model 10 or as S&W used to call it, the M&P. The model 15 is still my favorite range gun and I would carry it with the FEDERAL 130 grain HST if I had to, but would prefer the stronger RUGER loaded with the same ammo or 110 grain .357 magnums.
Many police departments complained to S&W about the use of +P ammo in the K-frame revolvers during the 1970's, 1980's and early 1990's. The guns did not blow up, they just began to shake loose and go out of time. So S&W brought out the L-frame based 586/686. Overbuilt for .38 Special, even +P .38 Special, but perfect for .357 magnum.
If you use +P ammo on a regular basis (you should shoot it often enough to qualify with it using a reasonable qualification drill), it may shake your gun loose sooner than later.
Before you consider buying any of the boutique ammo which is faster than the mainline manufacturers ammo, consider what the problem is. Is it pressure or is it recoil and vibration. The pressure may be ok, but the vibration produced by the "faster" ammo may just shake the old M&P loose, the same as +P ammo does.
FOR A DEFENSE LOAD:
With an early M&P, I would use NON+P ammo only. If your gun works with it, WINCHESTER makes a standard pressure 130 grain jhp called the DEFEND round. They sell it along with the ballistically matched TRAIN round which is also standard pressure, but is a full metal jacket, so much less useful for self defense, but they shoot to the same point of aim for practice.
Check out the expansion of this load on the LUCKY GUNNER website, for a standard pressure load, it is impressive.
WARNING: I have had problems with this and other WINCHESTER ammo in some of my guns that have had action work. The primer is struck, but does not ignite. All other brands work fine in these guns, so I attribute it to hard primers in the WINCHESTER AMMO.
I like the DEFEND rounds and carry them in my GLOCK 42 .380ACP, but advise caution with revolvers.
If you have problems with the DEFEND rounds, check out the HORNADY .38 Special FTX 110 grain ammo. They will expand somewhat and shoot LOW, below the point of aim, but they are 100 % reliable in my experience.
As a general rule, as I have become older and more experienced, I also tend to become more conservative in my shooting habits. If I do not own a .44 magnum, I will not shoot .44 Special loads that are 70 to 80% of what a .44 magnum load is. I have stopped shooting +P+ 9m.m. altogether and will only use +p ammo in specific guns for a specific reason. I find that the premium bullets make up for the difference in velocity.
I would only consider .38-44 loads in an S&W L-frame or RUGER GP-100, for hunting. I know that I can shoot them in smaller guns, but what is the point of putting up with the wearing out of your gun and the miserable recoil.
Good luck,
Jim
I have taken to not shooting +P .38 Special ammo in guns not rated for +P or the .357 magnum. I can shoot REMINGTON 125 grain +P .38 Specials all day in my RUGER Security Six, but I do not shoot them all the time in my S&W model 15, which is a K-frame like the model 10 or as S&W used to call it, the M&P. The model 15 is still my favorite range gun and I would carry it with the FEDERAL 130 grain HST if I had to, but would prefer the stronger RUGER loaded with the same ammo or 110 grain .357 magnums.
Many police departments complained to S&W about the use of +P ammo in the K-frame revolvers during the 1970's, 1980's and early 1990's. The guns did not blow up, they just began to shake loose and go out of time. So S&W brought out the L-frame based 586/686. Overbuilt for .38 Special, even +P .38 Special, but perfect for .357 magnum.
If you use +P ammo on a regular basis (you should shoot it often enough to qualify with it using a reasonable qualification drill), it may shake your gun loose sooner than later.
Before you consider buying any of the boutique ammo which is faster than the mainline manufacturers ammo, consider what the problem is. Is it pressure or is it recoil and vibration. The pressure may be ok, but the vibration produced by the "faster" ammo may just shake the old M&P loose, the same as +P ammo does.
FOR A DEFENSE LOAD:
With an early M&P, I would use NON+P ammo only. If your gun works with it, WINCHESTER makes a standard pressure 130 grain jhp called the DEFEND round. They sell it along with the ballistically matched TRAIN round which is also standard pressure, but is a full metal jacket, so much less useful for self defense, but they shoot to the same point of aim for practice.
Check out the expansion of this load on the LUCKY GUNNER website, for a standard pressure load, it is impressive.
WARNING: I have had problems with this and other WINCHESTER ammo in some of my guns that have had action work. The primer is struck, but does not ignite. All other brands work fine in these guns, so I attribute it to hard primers in the WINCHESTER AMMO.
I like the DEFEND rounds and carry them in my GLOCK 42 .380ACP, but advise caution with revolvers.
If you have problems with the DEFEND rounds, check out the HORNADY .38 Special FTX 110 grain ammo. They will expand somewhat and shoot LOW, below the point of aim, but they are 100 % reliable in my experience.
As a general rule, as I have become older and more experienced, I also tend to become more conservative in my shooting habits. If I do not own a .44 magnum, I will not shoot .44 Special loads that are 70 to 80% of what a .44 magnum load is. I have stopped shooting +P+ 9m.m. altogether and will only use +p ammo in specific guns for a specific reason. I find that the premium bullets make up for the difference in velocity.
I would only consider .38-44 loads in an S&W L-frame or RUGER GP-100, for hunting. I know that I can shoot them in smaller guns, but what is the point of putting up with the wearing out of your gun and the miserable recoil.
Good luck,
Jim
Eddietruett
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Great Point and maybe I should have worded my post differently. Certainly the more practice one puts in with any gun the more proficient they will get. However, the average shooter is not going to spend the hours it takes to get proficient with a heavy load. The average gun owner is going to go to the range a couple of times a year and maybe shoot a box of ammo. There is no way anyone will get good enough to handle a heavy magnum load with that amount of practice. By all means, carry the heaviest gun and load you are capable of using efficiently. But the bigger the gun and heavier the load takes more practice the heavier you get and most people aren't going to practice enough to get efficient with a hot load. I have been shooting handguns over 40 years and know some guys who would qualify as expert shots but I only know of maybe a handful that could pick up a 45. 357mag or 44 mag and at 7-10 yards and could rapid fire and keep all of the cylinder or mag in a 6" circle while at the same time I know many that could do so with a 38 spl or 9mm.
fxvr5
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This is incorrect. Current 38 special 158 grain lead is rated for ~770 fps from a 4" vented barrel. Add 2 more inches and what do you get? 860 fps from my 6.5" Ruger. That's equal with your 'old' ballistics.
Current 158 grain +P is rated for 890 fps from a 4" vented barrel. Add 2 more inches and it will be around 1000 fps.
Master Blaster
Member
I would shoot target loads out of it myself 148 gr or 158 gr bullets, since its an antique and there are no spare parts being made. I save heavy loads for my 686 or 627 or even my model 27.
Try to come up with an accurate load. You can shoot +P BUT I would stick to the 130 to 158 grain bullets as that is what the gun was designed for avoid the 110 +P loads as they will put more wear on the gun and they probably will be less accurate.
Try to come up with an accurate load. You can shoot +P BUT I would stick to the 130 to 158 grain bullets as that is what the gun was designed for avoid the 110 +P loads as they will put more wear on the gun and they probably will be less accurate.
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