1st world problems, 92, eaa, 9mm, 10mm??

Fit/function vs chamber?

  • Eaa 9mm

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Eaa 10mm

    Votes: 3 23.1%

  • Beretta 92

    Votes: 8 61.5%

  • Other double stack da/sa <1200

    Votes: 2 15.4%
  • Total voters
    13
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H

horsey300

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So this is not necessarily ford/Chevy/dodge thread as I have versatility/firepower/ergonomics with my already mixed collection. I have enough faith in 9mm and love the ergonomics of the 92 (I want to hate the px4, but it's hard) and my uncle (cop) swore by Beretta and s&w(for revolvers) that I know there will be at least 2 in the inventory soon enough. I don't hate the eaa, but let's say the "fit" of a cz75 isn't as natural. I know that ammo availability and recoil favors the 9mm, I also know that ballistics favor the 10 mm. I know that the bangswitch operator makes a big difference too. The basic requirements for this inquiry are da/sa, 10 or 9mm, under $1200, double stack. If it's in 10mm, it will probably get hunted, but ultimately, we're looking at which weapon would you trust your home with and would you say yes enough to make it the only one? I handload so ammo is kind of a non issue unless the absolute worst of the worst occurs.
Eta I have experience with handguns from .22-.38short-.32acp-.380-.9mm-.38sp-.357-.41mag-.45lc and am comfortable with all thus far.
Edited further cursing auto correct.
 
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By EAA, I assume you are referring to the Italian-made Tanfoglio Witness pistols, rather than an actual CZ75?

These are fine guns, though quite heavy in the full-size steel version (there are polymer framed models as well), and quite underappreciated.
Their robust construction is well suited to the 10mm round, but, IMO, overkill for a 9mm. If usage by someone such as the wife or girlfriend is possible, I would skip the Witness as its going to be too heavy/bulky and, in 10mm, have stout recoil. Also, the slide does not offer a whole lot of purchase for grabbing. My wife was completely unable to grip it well enough to pull it back.

Also, the Witness does not have 100% parts compatibility with the CZ and EAA has a, umm, questionable, customer service record.

On the plus side, my Witness was dead reliable and superbly accurate.

The Witness Compact is a better choice in 9mm, but still chunky. Keep in mind the Witness is available in .40 and .45 too, which are an even better fit for the full size gun.

The M92 Beretta is lighter due to its aluminum alloy frame, but many folks with small hands still find it unwieldy. Though some people consider the slide-mounted safety levers obnoxious, they DO make it easy-peazy for just about anyone to chamber a round. My Berettas have also been reliable and accurate, though older examples had issues with broken locking blocks. These are considered wear items and should be inspected occasionally, and IIRC, replaced every 15K rounds.

Pats, magazines, and accessories for the Beretta are going to be much more plentiful. Beretta generally has a good reputation for supporting their guns (except for the.32 Tomcat, but thats a different story).

Both of these are solid choices in 9mm for home defense and range use. Both are also generally too big and heavy to conceal and carry except in a duty holster. The 10mm Witness would be the clear winner if handgun hunting is your main consideration, but is not for the slight of stature. Of course, 10mm ammo is twice as expensive as well, though reloading helps.

I am still a big fan of the Witness, but, if I had to choose one it would be the Beretta-
20190202_192335.jpg
 
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The problem with the Tanfoglio guns from EAA has never (OK not usually) been the guns, but rather dealing with EAA. Customer support, service, warrantee, parts, etc., are usually not as available as for most other makers.

If nothing ever breaks or wears out, the EAA Witness may be perfect for you. If it ever does break, you may have wished you bought the Beretta, or CZ, or Glock, etc.
 
NIGHTLORD40K said:
By EAA, I assume you are referring to the Italian-made Tanfoglio Witness pistols, rather than an actual CZ75?

These are fine guns, though quite heavy in the full-size steel version (though there are polymer framed models as well), and quite underappreciated.
Their robust construction is well suited to the 10mm round, but, IMO, overkill for a 9mm. If usage by someone such as the wife or girlfriend is possible, I would skip the Witness as its going to be too heavy/bulky and, in 10mm, have stout recoil. Also, the slide does not offer a whole lot of purchase for grabbing. My wife was completely unable to grip it well enough to pull it back.

Also, the Witness does not have 100% parts compatibility with the CZ and EAA has a, umm, questionable, customer service record.

On the plus side, my Witness was dead reliable and superbly accurate.

The Witness Compact is a better choice in 9mm, but still chunky. Keep in mind the Witness is available in .40 and .45 too, which are an even better fit for the full size gun.

The M92 Beretta is lighter due to its aluminum alloy frame, but many folks with small hands still find it unwieldy. Though some people consider the slide-mounted safety levers obnoxious, they DO make it easy-peazy for just about anyone to chamber a round. My Berettas have also been reliable and accurate, though older examples had issues with broken locking blocks. These are considered wear items and should be inspected occasionally, and IIRC, replaced every 15K rounds.

Pats, magazines, and accessories for the Beretta are going to be much more plentiful. Beretta generally has a good reputation for supporting their guns (except for the.32 Tomcat, but thats a different story).

Both of these are solid choices in 9mm for home defense and range use. Both are also generally too big and heavy to conceal and carry except in a duty holster. The 10mm Witness would be the clear winner if handgun hunting is your main consideration, but is not for the slight of stature. Of course, 10mm ammo is twice as expensive as well, though reloading helps.

I am still a big fan of the Witness, but, if I had to choose one it would be the Beretta-
View attachment 849265
Click to expand...
While the wife MIGHT pick it up, 9 days out of 10, I can't get her to handle anything other than her .327 single 7, or one of the variously sized .357s, am not saying that the day would never come but thus far wants nothing to do with any of the current assortment of semi-auto. Thank you for the input, that was genuinely useful!
Yes I was referring to the tanfoglio witness lineup, but am open to suggestions for similar setups as well.
JTQ said:
The problem with the Tanfoglio guns from EAA has never (OK not usually) been the guns, but rather dealing with EAA. Customer support, service, warrantee, parts, etc., are usually not as available as for most other makers.

If nothing ever breaks or wears out, the EAA Witness may be perfect for you. If it ever does break, you may have wished you bought the Beretta, or CZ, or Glock, etc.
Click to expand...
Soooooo, 2 marks against eaa customer service, noted, thank you.
 
Sig 220 in 10mm is my choice for a 10mm in the specified da/sa. I also prefer the feel of the 92/96 to most any other handgun. The sig 220 (or 226 in 9/40/357) feels similar, especially with a hogue grip.

As far as customer service, I have only dealt with eaa twice. They were slow but did the job and communicated. Of all the companies I've dealt with only 2 have exceeded my expectations. (Neither are relevant to your DA/SA inquiry) None have failed to fix the problem/s. Some were slow. Some were incompetent and sent wrong parts even with the factory part numbers. Some took a couple tries. Some didnt communicate at all, no email stating they recieved/fixed/or even shipped the gun (smith) . Some charged for shipping when most companies don't. (SIG). Regardless, all of them fixed the issue for the folks involved. But that's just my experience.
 
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There are a bunch of things to unpack in the OP's post and some responses. The OP is asking a combined caliber and "platform" question, and they're tangled up here.

Pure platform analysis:

I'm a big fan of Tanfoglios, though my only experience has been with the competition-oriented Elite series. I have a 10mm Match that is currently in the bedside stand that also gets used as a carry gun in the woods. I have other Tanfo's that I use for USPSA competition. I have shot these guns a lot. They are great guns. Other than revolvers, that's about all I'm likely to buy these days.

But you need to understand that Tanfoglio's core market is competition shooters. These are people who take apart their own guns regularly, replace parts frequently, expect to break things, etc. The guns are extremely robust, but, as noted above, the importer isn't necessarily going to give you the warm fuzzies if you need to deal with them. Replacement part availability is generally excellent these days, with several independent vendors stocking parts.... mostly competition oriented vendors. Old complaints about replacement parts being hard to get are not really valid any more. But your neighborhood gun store "gunsmith" (really armorer) isn't likely to know these guns well, and you'll need to do most of your own work on them. They're not as tricky to work on as a S&W DA revolver, but they're not plug-and-play Glocks, either. If that bothers/scares you, they're probably not for you in terms of a gun that you're going to put a lot of miles on.

Honestly, the main reason to get a Tanfoglio is for the ergonomics. If its ergonomics don't suit you, then don't get one. Unless the caliber issue basically forces it.

The Beretta is an extremely mature design. There's good aftermarket support for it (as there is for the Tanfo', though you'll have more "tactical"-oriented choices with the Beretta). The ergos are good for some, not for others. The trigger can be made very good for a DA/SA gun. Biggest drawbacks for HD are that: 1) the aluminum frame doesn't tamp recoil quite as well as the Tanfo's steel frame and the bore is just a little higher (though not as high as a Sig), which are not big issues in 9mm; and 2) the very mechanically busy slide means there's not a good way to mount a slide-riding red-dot if you eventually decide to add one. The safety is also very differently positioned and oriented and is, IMO, sub-optimal. Beretta's newest competition-oriented gun has sensibly gone back to a frame-mounted, down-to-fire safety, but it's not available yet.
​
Caliber question:

These days, the strong consensus is that 9mm is not just adequate for home defense, but probably optimal. A minority of shooters are able to manage 10mm recoil effectively enough to really shoot the gun hard. In SD situations, multiple shots are commonly required, and being able to return the sights quickly is an important thing. This is different than being "comfortable" shooting the gun at a square range and printing small groups.

I personally don't fully agree with the CW that the 9mm is optimal and that other cartridges provide no marginal terminal effectiveness, but I think 9mm is certainly a reasonable HD choice. It's a pretty capable pistol round. And even if you're reloading, the component cost difference between loading 9mm and 10mm starts to add up if you're shooting enough volume to get/stay truly proficient.​
 
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I agree with what everyone else said, but I also think if you’re going to end up with some 9mm Berettas from your uncle, a 10mm would be a nice addition. Plus, since you load your own, you can keep them relatively mild for HD, or rev them up for other situations.

Yeah, EAA doesn’t have a real good rep, but there’s a lot of folks who have nothing but good things to say about their Tangfos. So you just have to pick which internet story to believe.

If it were me, I’d go for a Witness Stock 3 in 10mm. I might change the sights out for tritium though.

Picture from the net.
F182FFF8-D4D0-4BF5-BAF9-701BD51E8D10.jpeg
 
460Shooter said:
I agree with what everyone else said, but I also think if you’re going to end up with some 9mm Berettas from your uncle, a 10mm would be a nice addition. Plus, since you load your own, you can keep them relatively mild for HD, or rev them up for other situations.

Yeah, EAA doesn’t have a real good rep, but there’s a lot of folks who have nothing but good things to say about their Tangfos. So you just have to pick which internet story to believe.

If it were me, I’d go for a Witness Stock 3 in 10mm. I might change the sights out for tritium though.

Picture from the net.
View attachment 849292
Click to expand...
Oh, yes indeed, it's not a matter of one or the other lol but more of the priority in which they are acquired. In this house, both is not a non starter but more of a requirement lol ;) just trying to figure out what makes the most sense FIRST.
 
ATLDave said:
There are a bunch of things to unpack in the OP's post and some responses. The OP is asking a combined caliber and "platform" question, and they're tangled up here.

Pure platform analysis:

I'm a big fan of Tanfoglios, though my only experience has been with the competition-oriented Elite series. I have a 10mm Match that is currently in the bedside stand that also gets used as a carry gun in the woods. I have other Tanfo's that I use for USPSA competition. I have shot these guns a lot. They are great guns. Other than revolvers, that's about all I'm likely to buy these days.

But you need to understand that Tanfoglio's core market is competition shooters. These are people who take apart their own guns regularly, replace parts frequently, expect to break things, etc. The guns are extremely robust, but, as noted above, the importer isn't necessarily going to give you the warm fuzzies if you need to deal with them. Replacement part availability is generally excellent these days, with several independent vendors stocking parts.... mostly competition oriented vendors. Old complaints about replacement parts being hard to get are not really valid any more. But your neighborhood gun store "gunsmith" (really armorer) isn't likely to know these guns well, and you'll need to do most of your own work on them. They're not as tricky to work on as a S&W DA revolver, but they're not plug-and-play Glocks, either. If that bothers/scares you, they're probably not for you in terms of a gun that you're going to put a lot of miles on.

Honestly, the main reason to get a Tanfoglio is for the ergonomics. If its ergonomics don't suit you, then don't get one. Unless the caliber issue basically forces it.

The Beretta is an extremely mature design. There's good aftermarket support for it (as there is for the Tanfo', though you'll have more "tactical"-oriented choices with the Beretta). The ergos are good for some, not for others. The trigger can be made very good for a DA/SA gun. Biggest drawbacks for HD are that: 1) the aluminum frame doesn't tamp recoil quite as well as the Tanfo's steel frame and the bore is just a little higher (though not as high as a Sig), which are not big issues in 9mm; and 2) the very mechanically busy slide means there's not a good way to mount a slide-riding red-dot if you eventually decide to add one. The safety is also very differently positioned and oriented and is, IMO, sub-optimal. Beretta's newest competition-oriented gun has sensibly gone back to a frame-mounted, down-to-fire safety, but it's not available yet.
​
Caliber question:

These days, the strong consensus is that 9mm is not just adequate for home defense, but probably optimal. A minority of shooters are able to manage 10mm recoil effectively enough to really shoot the gun hard. In SD situations, multiple shots are commonly required, and being able to return the sights quickly is an important thing. This is different than being "comfortable" shooting the gun at a square range and printing small groups.

I personally don't fully agree with the CW that the 9mm is optimal and that other cartridges provide no marginal terminal effectiveness, but I think 9mm is certainly a reasonable HD choice. It's a pretty capable pistol round. And even if you're reloading, the component cost difference between loading 9mm and 10mm starts to add up if you're shooting enough volume to get/stay truly proficient.​
Click to expand...
So, unless the tanfoglio truly trips my trigger, it doesn't justify the 10mm at this point?
 
Justify? I have learned several times over that looking for justification on THR isn’t a good plan. We are a gang of enablers here.
 
horsey300 said:
So, unless the tanfoglio truly trips my trigger, it doesn't justify the 10mm at this point?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't buy any gun that doesn't "do it for me" just to get into one particular cartridge. Particularly for home defense, as there are so many viable choices for that.
 
I'm currently thinking about a CZ75 B SA or a CZ75 B converted to SAO.

I've had a couple of friends with TZs. One had an old 9x19mm with the slide mounted safety. It was a decent gun, but out of the question for me since it couldn't be carried cocked and locked. Another friend had two of the very first run of TZ40s. They were unmitigated garbage. Both of them (the original and the distributor provided replacement) were totally unreliable, being incapable of three consecutive shots without a failure to feed. It appeared that there were issues with premature opening, "fixed" by scoring annular rings in the chamber to impede ejection. These also worked to impede chambering. I don't know anyone who currently owns a Tanfoglio pistol.
 
460Shooter said:
Justify? I have learned several times over that looking for justification on THR isn’t a good plan. We are a gang of enablers here.
Click to expand...

ATLDave said:
I wouldn't buy any gun that doesn't "do it for me" just to get into one particular cartridge. Particularly for home defense, as there are so many viable choices for that.
Click to expand...
I'm proudly one of said enablers lol. As for guns that don't do it for me......dad's 19-4 s&w once repulsed me, but now it's in the favorites, things (especially firearms) can grow on a fella. So, it seems like a 92 (or 2 or 3) would be in order for a while, then add in the 10mm flavors as budget allows.
 
ATLDave said:
Go to a USPSA or IPSC match, particularly in the higher levels of the sport, and you will see a fair number of them.
Click to expand...
I said that I do not PERSONALLY know anyone who currently owns a Tanfoglio pistol, not that NOBODY does, or that they are not popular. I was putting my knowledge of them in the proper context. That's called being "honest".
 
I was providing some additional contextual information. Further context might include that TZ's haven't been made or imported for many, many years and have relatively little parts commonality with current (as in last 10 years) manufacture EAA/Tanfoglios.
 
ATLDave said:
I was providing some additional contextual information. Further context might include that TZ's haven't been made or imported for many, many years and have relatively little parts commonality with current (as in last 10 years) manufacture EAA/Tanfoglios.
Click to expand...
Which only highlights make unprompted admission that I don't know anyone currently in possession of a Tanfoglio product. I cited my experience and EXPLICITLY said that was my ONLY experience.
 
Current possession is a lot less significant than having experience with something resembling current product.

A person considering whether to buy a Porsche Cayenne may not be helped much by the knowledge that someone's friend had a Porsche 914 that was unreliable... particularly if the person doesn't have the contextual knowledge about the how the two products relate to one another.
 
ATLDave said:
Current possession is a lot less significant than having experience with something resembling current product.
Click to expand...
NO possession is very relevant. I don't know anybody who owns a Tanfoglio product, whether two days or two decades old. I admit UP FRONT that I have no experience with their current products.
 
@horsey300

Have you considered a Shadow 2? Yeah it’s another 9mm, but the one I handled had a really nice trigger, it’s high capacity (17 round factory mags), and the weight should make it a pussycat to shoot.

It’d cover your HD bases, be fun to shoot, and be within budget.
 
460Shooter said:
@horsey300

Have you considered a Shadow 2? Yeah it’s another 9mm, but the one I handled had a really nice trigger, it’s high capacity (17 round factory mags), and the weight should make it a pussycat to shoot.

It’d cover your HD bases, be fun to shoot, and be within budget.
Click to expand...
I hadn't, so far the only others on my radar were the (?) CZP09, iwi Jericho, and in passing a baby eagle, that shadow doesn't look too bad, I'll have to keep an eye out locally and handle one if I can.
 
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