45-70 load with imr3031

Jwhit · Jul 8, 2019

i have 350grain lead cast that i want to load for target shooting
i see trap door load low as 24grains powder and lever action loads high as 47 grains
i will be shooting these in my henry with 22" barrel any help would be great
i dont want to have any issue but was thinking about starting around 32 grains
please help

Charlie98 · Jul 8, 2019

I don't know if 32grn IMR3031 will be that good of a load... I imagine the velocity will be quite low. I've loaded as low as 45grn IMR3031 under a LaserCast 350, unfortunately, my velocity data is out in NV... and I'm in TX right now.. but if memory serves it was right around 1500fps. Hodgdon's online data, listed as Trapdoor loads with a 385grn bullet, start at 49grn for almost 1700fps.

If you are looking for a manageable load in the low teens (velocity) I would reach for the IMR4198... which is what I normally load.

Jwhit · Jul 9, 2019

i am trying to get a light target shooting load that is not so bad on the bad shoulder i have
just going to be shooting at paper and steel
thanks

Charlie98 · Jul 9, 2019

What rifle are you shooting these in? That can make a difference.

If you are looking for a light shooter, there are other options... 2400, Unique, maybe IMR4227.

I have QuickLoad data for IMR4198 and the 385 and 405, with the 350grn bullet, all else being equal, you will see higher velocity and a little less recoil. 27grn IMR4198 gives right at 1300fps, and is still at 60% case fill. That's my basic target shooting load, I can set and fire 100 of those without problems. You can reduce that charge further, for example, 26.5grn IMR4198 and the 385grn bullet is right at 1300fps... so something like 26grn and your 350grn bullet would probably be right there.

ArchAngelCD · Jul 9, 2019

For light Trapdoor loads I shoot a 405gr cast bullet over 4198 or AA5744. If you want even lighter use a 300gr cast of coated cast bullet. Missouri Bullets make a good bullets.

With a 300gr cast bullet try 30.0gr H4198, 42.5gr IMR3031 or 29.0gr AA5744
With a 405gr cast bullet try 27.0gr H4198, 34.0gr 3031 or 26.0gr AA5744

I like the AA5744 loads best followed by H4198. The IMR4198 charges are slightly higher.

Jwhit · Jul 9, 2019

I have Henry brass model with 22 barrel
Also brass butt pad
I order 350 grain bullets from oragan trail
And load data they provided was 22 grains of 3031 for trap door loads and 46 grain for
Lever action .I like the thought of light load
But I don't want to have issues that's why
I'm reaching out for help
O have 1lb of 3031 that I can't use on anything else some I like 4895 for 308 and 223

ArchAngelCD · Jul 9, 2019

Jwhit said:
I have Henry brass model with 22 barrel
Also brass butt pad
I order 350 grain bullets from oragan trail
And load data they provided was 22 grains of 3031 for trap door loads and 46 grain for
Lever action .I like the thought of light load
But I don't want to have issues that's why
I'm reaching out for help
O have 1lb of 3031 that I can't use on anything else some I like 4895 for 308 and 223

The bullets you ordered are super hard. I hope you don't get any leading at the low pressures/velocity you are going to be loading. The bullet might not seal off the barrel and hot gasses could melt the sides of the bullets.

Jwhit · Jul 9, 2019

ArchAngelCD said:
The bullets you ordered are super hard. I hope you don't get any leading at the low pressures/velocity you are going to be loading. The bullet might not seal off the barrel and hot gasses could melt the sides of the bullets.

would i have any issue around 38 grains of 3031? i have never loaded lead before i tend to get jacketed
thanks again for the help

ArchAngelCD · Jul 9, 2019

Jwhit said:
would i have any issue around 38 grains of 3031? i have never loaded lead before i tend to get jacketed
thanks again for the help

I'm sorry, I couldn't tell you. You will have to give them a try. Your barrel might be a little tight which will help prevent leading. You will have to see, you don't want to go too hot and defeat the intention to produce lighter loads. If worst comes you can load them heavy for hunting loads in a levergun. You might be OK, I just wanted to warn you so if you did get leading you would have a good idea why.

Jwhit · Jul 9, 2019

ArchAngelCD said:
I'm sorry, I couldn't tell you. You will have to give them a try. Your barrel might be a little tight which will help prevent leading. You will have to see, you don't want to go too hot and defeat the intention to produce lighter loads. If worst comes you can load them heavy for hunting loads in a levergun. You might be OK, I just wanted to warn you so if you did get leading you would have a good idea why.

would you feel safe with the trap door load in modern rifle ??i have another data load chart showing start 29.5 with max of 38 for 1873 springfield with 21" barrel fps 1075 - 1420 also if i get leading whats best method to remove?
thanks again

Stubert · Jul 9, 2019

I called Oregon Trail a couple years back and was told their bullets were 22-26 bhn. That may be to hard to seal the bore at low pressures. I shoot a 350 gr. 14 bhn bullet over 49. gr. of 3031 in my Guide gun with no leading.

Walkalong · Jul 9, 2019

Jwhit said:
i am trying to get a light target shooting load that is not so bad on the bad shoulder i have

Try some Trail Boss

It's what I use for popcorn fart loads in .458 win Mag.

A coated bullet will alleviate leading concerns.

ACME 350 Gr

They also have heavier ones. I have some of their 405 gr ones.

ArchAngelCD · Jul 9, 2019

@Jwhit , I can't tell you what is it is not safe to shoot in your gun. I can't take a chance on being responsible if you take my advice and something bad happens. They list 3 different data levels for a good reason, you shouldn't shoot high pressure loads in a rifle that is over 140 years old.

Have fun and be safe.

Cuz70 · Jul 12, 2019

Jwhit said:
i have 350grain lead cast that i want to load for target shooting
i see trap door load low as 24grains powder and lever action loads high as 47 grains
i will be shooting these in my henry with 22" barrel any help would be great
i dont want to have any issue but was thinking about starting around 32 grains
please help

I reloaded some 45-70 with 350gr.lead hp.Used imr3031 with 36.0 gr. Shooting a h&r buffalo classic. View attachment 849915

Slamfire · Jul 12, 2019

I really don't know why anyone uses any other powder than AA5744 in these big, low pressure cases. According to Accurate Arms, this powder was developed for the 45/120 case, I think they found an existing powder and it worked well, regardless of advertising hype, it works well.

You can see the velocities I measured during load testing and in several other 45/70 rifles.

45/70 Martini Henry 26" Shilen Barrel

Code:

405 LRN 26.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR 29-Apr-04 T = 80 °F Ave Vel = 1294 Std Dev = 14 ES = 40 Low = 1274 High = 1314 N = 15 Group Size Very . good 405 LRN 27.0gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR 24-Mar-04 T = 70 °F Ave Vel = 1284 Std Dev = 23 ES = 80 Low = 1263 High = 1343 N = 12 405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR 15-Apr-05 T = 75 °F Ave Vel = 1363 Std Dev = 25 ES = 97 Low = 1298 High = 1395 N = 20 Group Size good offhand at 100 yards

Winchester BPCR M1885 30" Badger barrel
Ladder Sights: 5 graduations per 1/4 inch major.
1/4 inch major is 25 MOA, 1 grad is 5 MOA, 1 Vernier is 1 MOA

Code:

405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR trimmed 2.085" 29 May 2010 T = 89 °F Ave Vel = 1324 Std Dev = 9 ES = 26 High = 1338 Low = 1312 N = 6

I have not slugged the barrel of this M1873, but it leaded something awful till I applied a huge amount of external grease to the bullets. I think the barrel is large compared to my commercial cast bullets.

M1873 Springfield Trapdoor 1884 rebuild 27" sight radius

Code:

405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR trimmed 2.085" 14 Aug 2014 T = 78 °F Ave Vel = 1302 Std Dev = 11 ES = 26 High = 1315 Low = 1289 N = 5 First round 15.5" high, rest, 19.5 to 23" high at 100 yards Ballistic calculator: 100 yd zero, 25" drop at 200 yds, 82" drop at 300 yds 405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR trimmed 2.085" Heavily greased with Lubriplate 130A 14 Aug 2014 T = 78 °F Ave Vel = 1346 Std Dev = 15 ES = 38 High = 1371 Low = 1333 N = 5

If you use commercial cast bullets, I recommend you grease the heck out of them. Mine fouled badly until I externally greased them. Messy, but it cut out the lead fouling.

You can see that I used so much grease that grease was extruded down the sides of the shell casings, into the action.

Ungreased fired cases on left, greased, fired cases on right. Absolutely nothing bad happened outside of grease in the action. Considering the lead fouling reduction, I can live with that.

Charlie98 · Jul 12, 2019

Jwhit said:
O have 1lb of 3031 that I can't use on anything else some I like 4895 for 308 and 223

Just FYI... IMR3031 is a dandy powder in the .308. I bought 32# of IMR4895 when I first started loading .308, but once I started load development, I found IMR3031 was a better powder with ~150's in the short barrel of my M1a. I've gone to IMR4064 for my 24" Savage bolt gun in .308. Once I use up my stash of IMR4895, I'll probably drop it from the bench, except for an occasional pound or 2 for the M1 Garand.

Charlie98 · Jul 12, 2019

Slamfire said:
I really don't know why anyone uses any other powder than AA5744 in these big, low pressure cases.

Because they make IMR4198!

Slamfire · Jul 12, 2019

Charlie98 said:
Because they make IMR4198!

There are so many powders! The proliferation of powders is beyond comprehension. Eventually there will be a Monday powder, and a Tuesday powder, powders for vowels, other powders for consonants. It would be great if the loading companies published pressure curves, then we could see the duplicates, but all we see are screaming labels and end of history articles.

When AA5744 came out Accurate Arms claimed it was developed for large cases, like the 45-110. I don't believe they developed it at all, I believe they found a propellant developed for military applications.

this is from another site:

https://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20587&start=60

Battleship Gunner: The founder of AAC told me personally where he got the original batch of 5744 and what it had been developed for. He sent me an eight pound milk jug of it in 1981. If he indeed told me Hercules made it then he was probably wrong or my memory is flawed after 32 years. I say that because in the book THE GUN by C.J. Chivers on page 293 he states that early AR15 ammunition had been loaded with a powder known as IMR4475 but that in late 1963 the army allowed a ball powder named WC846 to be substituted. The ball powder raised velocity and lowered chamber pressure but burned dirty and was one reason M16s got a bad rep in early Vietnam combat for unreliability.

Note that 5744 is 4475 reversed. IMR would designate that the powder was a DuPont product and not Hercules.

After the surplus stuff was gone they turned offshore for new manufacture. It has been made in Israel and the Czech Republic. The one pound size can I keep under my bench says the latter. It has also been named MP5744 and XMR5744. When I feel like braving the wind and snow I'll check my eight pound jug out in my storage shed and see where it was made.

I don't know where it is made now but it is my all-time favorite for cast bullet loads in bottleneck rifle cases and for lever gun rounds that were originally meant for black powder.

I have used pounds of the stuff and it is in my experience, the best smokeless powder that I have used with cast bullets in rifles. Very even velocities, not sensitive to position, and it does not blow up blackpowder rifles.

Accurate 5744 Powder Review – Made & Distributed by Accurate Arms

I have not chased after other cast bullet powders because I have reached the end of history, with cast rifle powders, in so as far as I am concerned. IMR 4198 probably works well, I would like to see others data with extreme velocity spreads to evaluate.

Jwhit · Jul 12, 2019

Cuz70 said:
I reloaded some 45-70 with 350gr.lead hp.Used imr3031 with 36.0 gr. Shooting a h&r buffalo classic. View attachment 849915

could not see attatchedment

SlowFuse · Jul 12, 2019

In my experience IMR3031 is a great powder for lead 45-70 loads. But, I've observed it does like to be ran at the upper end of things to burn clean.

Use any published load for a trapdoor and you will be fine. And for a Henry lever actions, I would think you can run any lever action load in it also. Just don't go for the "Modern Rifles" section on the Hodgdon data site for example and you will be ok. For me anything under 1500 fps with a 405 is comfortable enough to shoot pretty extensively. I don't have a Henry but I would imagine its about the same recoil-wise as the Marlins and Wins. I use.

Get you a slip on buttpad to cover the hard brass stock end and you'll be able to either shoot more light loads or crank them up a little to lever action loads without having a blown shoulder at the end of the day! Not pretty but they work.

Reeferman · Jul 12, 2019

When using smokeless in my Trapdoor 27 grains of H4198 under a 405 Lee HB makes for an accurate and low pressure load. Can’t seem to find any 3031 around here.

Charlie98 · Jul 12, 2019

Slamfire said:
I have used pounds of the stuff and it is in my experience, the best smokeless powder that I have used with cast bullets in rifles. Very even velocities, not sensitive to position, and it does not blow up blackpowder rifles.

I'm just funning with you, Slam. I've got a can of AA5744 on the bench, but I prefer IMR4198 more because I can use it in other cartridges as well, and I've found it to be cleaner burning. Powders are like noses... everyone has one, and they pick them for different reasons.

Jack Ryan · Jul 12, 2019

Jwhit said:
i have 350grain lead cast that i want to load for target shooting
i see trap door load low as 24grains powder and lever action loads high as 47 grains
i will be shooting these in my henry with 22" barrel any help would be great
i dont want to have any issue but was thinking about starting around 32 grains
please help

45-70 340 grain lead round nose, cast from WW and pure lead mix, Alox lube
IMR 3031, 53 grains, gave me 1900 feet per second from my NEF single shot.
Loaded those in Jan, 2016 and shot a few of 'em today. Still just as good as they were then. That has a pretty serious thump on both ends when you touch one off. Not for the faint of heart.

I don't get the urge to "down load". Why shoot a 45-70 and then try to turn it in to a 45 colt. I'd just shoot a lighter gun if I didn't want the recoil.

Charlie98 · Jul 13, 2019

Jack Ryan said:
I don't get the urge to "down load". Why shoot a 45-70 and then try to turn it in to a 45 colt. I'd just shoot a lighter gun if I didn't want the recoil.

Because a .45 Colt won't launch a 405grn bullet 1200 yards... but a .45-70 with a nice, sedate charge of IMR4198 or AA5744 will.

Walkalong · Jul 13, 2019

Charlie98 said:
Because they make IMR4198!

lol......but I will have to agree with Slamfire that AA 5744 is outstanding stuff in things like .45-70 etc.

I have had 4198, just never tried it for that. Same for 3031, I have an old unopened 1lb metal can of it.

Charlie98 said:
Because a .45 Colt won't launch a 405grn bullet 1200 yards... but a .45-70 with a nice, sedate charge of IMR4198 or AA5744 will.

Or a .458 Win Mag with Trailboss.

In the .458 case AA 5744 is for downloading to .45-70 levels.

45-70 load with imr3031

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member.

Member

Member.

Member

Member.

Member

Member

Moderator

Member.

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Moderator

Similar threads