Accuracy or Velocity. Choose.

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Garandimal said:
And for the Barnes TSX?

2400 fps - is a better floor for good bullet performance - w/ > 2600 fps being optimum.

And 1 MOA - is fine field accuracy.




GR
Click to expand...
Thanks. I'll keep that in mind, but I can't use 2400 as minimum impact velocity because it will cut my range almost in half. Barnes has told me that 2k is the min. Guess we won't know for sure unless and until I get a caribou. Then the proof is in the pudding.
 
D.B. Cooper said:
Choose. But choose wisely.

I'm putting together a load for caribou for my 243 Winchester using an 85 grain Barnes TSX HPBT (not the tipped) projectile and Hodgdon Superperformance powder. I need to choose between the most accurate load or the fastest load.

My best accuracy was about 1/2 MOA from 42.7 grains. That's near the starting charge of 41.2 grains. I didn't have a chronograph then, so I don't know the velocity, but I estimate it to be about 2900 fps. (I seem to gain or lose about 75 fps for every 0.5 grain change in powder charge.) Next-best accuracy was just over 1 MOA from 43.7 grains at 3052 fps.

Barns recommends a terminal velocity of at least 2000 fps for proper expansion. According to my ballistics calculator, the 2900 fps load drops to 2000 at 350 yards and is still supersonic at 850 yrds.; the 3052 fps load (is 150 fps even enough to worry about?) drops to 2000 fps at 400 yards and is still supersonic at 900 yards.

SO...the slower, more accurate charge works out to be a max effective range of 350, and at 350 and half MOA, that's a roughly 1-3/4 group. (I'm not that good of a shooter to hole 1/2 MOA from a field position.) The kill zone on a caribou is roughly 12-14 inches.

The faster, less accurate charge works out to be a max effective range of 400 yards, and at 400 and just over 1 MOA, that's roughly a 4" group.

Just from typing this up and re-reading it, I'm wondering if there is enough difference between these two to make a difference. Both are probably sufficient for my purpose. (Neither are what I would call stellar.) I also have to ask myself if I would even shoot a caribou at 350 or 400 yards.

Anyway. Tanks for reading my lengthy post, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Click to expand...

Find bigger caribou ?

Sorry, Couldn't resist :)

IMHO, I would go accuracy. But 1 moa should do it.
 
D.B. Cooper said:
Thanks. I'll keep that in mind, but I can't use 2400 as minimum impact velocity because it will cut my range almost in half. Barnes has told me that 2k is the min. Guess we won't know for sure unless and until I get a caribou. Then the proof is in the pudding.
Click to expand...

Your range - is what it is.

Minimum is just that... the initiation of expansion.

...And will most likely result in the "Pencil" effect.

130g-barnes-270-wsm-tsx-555yards-cow-elk.jpg
This is ~ 2350 fps.​

I use this:
2600 - Max. expansion
2400 - Good expansion
2200 - Fair expansion
2000 - Min. expansion

For large game, 2200 fps is rock bottom - and even then, am aiming for the shoulder and heavy bone.




GR
 
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I would switch bullets, partly because I don’t like picky loads, but mostly because based on shooting a dozen deer with 100 grain tsx’s in a 25-06 at 3100 FPS or so, they are just very lackluster bullets. Decent penetration but slow velocities, poor exit wounding, and takes a long time for them to go down.

I would put a 100 grain bonded lead core bullet in it.
 
D.B. Cooper said:
Choose. But choose wisely.

I'm putting together a load for caribou for my 243 Winchester using an 85 grain Barnes TSX HPBT (not the tipped) projectile and Hodgdon Superperformance powder. I need to choose between the most accurate load or the fastest load.

My best accuracy was about 1/2 MOA from 42.7 grains. That's near the starting charge of 41.2 grains. I didn't have a chronograph then, so I don't know the velocity, but I estimate it to be about 2900 fps. (I seem to gain or lose about 75 fps for every 0.5 grain change in powder charge.) Next-best accuracy was just over 1 MOA from 43.7 grains at 3052 fps.

Barns recommends a terminal velocity of at least 2000 fps for proper expansion. According to my ballistics calculator, the 2900 fps load drops to 2000 at 350 yards and is still supersonic at 850 yrds.; the 3052 fps load (is 150 fps even enough to worry about?) drops to 2000 fps at 400 yards and is still supersonic at 900 yards.

SO...the slower, more accurate charge works out to be a max effective range of 350, and at 350 and half MOA, that's a roughly 1-3/4 group. (I'm not that good of a shooter to hole 1/2 MOA from a field position.) The kill zone on a caribou is roughly 12-14 inches.

The faster, less accurate charge works out to be a max effective range of 400 yards, and at 400 and just over 1 MOA, that's roughly a 4" group.

Just from typing this up and re-reading it, I'm wondering if there is enough difference between these two to make a difference. Both are probably sufficient for my purpose. (Neither are what I would call stellar.) I also have to ask myself if I would even shoot a caribou at 350 or 400 yards.

Anyway. Tanks for reading my lengthy post, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Click to expand...
I would change bullets if that was my options. You are hunting something where you will be shooting far. You are better off with a "softer" bullet. I would run an Interlock or Amax before a Barnes.
Barnes bullets are better for people who shoot a high velocity cartridge at close range or large caliber cartridges.
 
Garandimal said:
Your range - is what it is.

Minimum is just that... the initiation of expansion.

...And will most likely result in the "Pencil" effect.

View attachment 850102
This is ~ 2350 fps.​

I use this:
2600 - Max. expansion
2400 - Good expansion
2200 - Fair expansion
2000 - Min. expansion

For large game, 2200 fps is rock bottom - and even then, am aiming for the shoulder and heavy bone.




GR
Click to expand...
Thanks. I know exactly what you mean by "pencil effect."
 
IndianaBoy said:
You don't need a chronograph.

Zero at a known distance, observe your real world drop at a distance such as 400 or 500 yards, and punch the data into Strelok Pro.

It will give you your calculated muzzle velocity and without the potential % error that some chronographs have.

You will also need to know the twist rate of your rifle. The ballistic coefficients of all major bullet manufacturers are already loaded in the databases within Strelok Pro.
Click to expand...


LOL. Wanna hear something funny. Apple just moved to iOS10 and, in the process dropped support for my iPad, which is at 9.35. I can't update to a newer iOS. I'm now on the obsolete list. This happened to to my iPod many years ago...and I still use it every day. smh

This is why I prefer to purchase software and load it on my own computer.
 
D.B. Cooper said:
Choose. But choose wisely.

I'm putting together a load for caribou for my 243 Winchester using an 85 grain Barnes TSX HPBT (not the tipped) projectile and Hodgdon Superperformance powder. I need to choose between the most accurate load or the fastest load.

My best accuracy was about 1/2 MOA from 42.7 grains. That's near the starting charge of 41.2 grains. I didn't have a chronograph then, so I don't know the velocity, but I estimate it to be about 2900 fps. (I seem to gain or lose about 75 fps for every 0.5 grain change in powder charge.) Next-best accuracy was just over 1 MOA from 43.7 grains at 3052 fps.

Barns recommends a terminal velocity of at least 2000 fps for proper expansion. According to my ballistics calculator, the 2900 fps load drops to 2000 at 350 yards and is still supersonic at 850 yrds.; the 3052 fps load (is 150 fps even enough to worry about?) drops to 2000 fps at 400 yards and is still supersonic at 900 yards.

SO...the slower, more accurate charge works out to be a max effective range of 350, and at 350 and half MOA, that's a roughly 1-3/4 group. (I'm not that good of a shooter to hole 1/2 MOA from a field position.) The kill zone on a caribou is roughly 12-14 inches.

The faster, less accurate charge works out to be a max effective range of 400 yards, and at 400 and just over 1 MOA, that's roughly a 4" group.

Just from typing this up and re-reading it, I'm wondering if there is enough difference between these two to make a difference. Both are probably sufficient for my purpose. (Neither are what I would call stellar.) I also have to ask myself if I would even shoot a caribou at 350 or 400 yards.

Anyway. Tanks for reading my lengthy post, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Click to expand...

Velocity Kills and high RPM is always a plus. If you can put a round in a 3in. circle at your maximum intended range, you can kill anything on the planet.
 
PapaG said:
I think I'd want 100 grain for Caribou. Probably not available in monolith?
Click to expand...
Not in my caliber (243 Win.) However, I took a small (about 300 lbs) caribou 2 years ago with a plain jane Winchester Power-Point 100 grain, and, while the meat is in the freezer, I'd like to do it better next time. The whole point of copper solid projectiles is that they retain nearly 100% of their weight after impact, so 85 grains is 85 grains. I shot that caribou twice, no exit holes, and found NO projectiles. My only assumption is that they were so badly obliterated that the pieces fell out during processing without me noticing them. (Or, we ate them. Could go either way.)
 
D.B. Cooper said:
Not in my caliber (243 Win.) However, I took a small (about 300 lbs) caribou 2 years ago with a plain jane Winchester Power-Point 100 grain, and, while the meat is in the freezer, I'd like to do it better next time. The whole point of copper solid projectiles is that they retain nearly 100% of their weight after impact, so 85 grains is 85 grains. I shot that caribou twice, no exit holes, and found NO projectiles. My only assumption is that they were so badly obliterated that the pieces fell out during processing without me noticing them. (Or, we ate them. Could go either way.)
Click to expand...
Wouldn't the more likely option be step up to a slightly bigger caliber, so you get better penetration and emphatic kills. I'm not talking magnums. Even a 308 has more than enough trajectory for well placed shots at 400 yards.
 
I haven’t had to choose between an accurate load, reliable load, or fast load for a long time. At least 15 years. I remember struggling with it when I was younger and just starting out behind the press; not really sure if my method matured sufficiently to eliminate the issue or maybe it’s just the Gods smiling upon me, but I don’t find myself in that particular predicament any more.

If I can’t get fast enough with sufficient precision, I either chose the wrong powder, or I chose the wrong cartridge. Neither happens very often for me any more.
 
2,000fps is a good floor for the monometals. I would generally say 1,800, but in this case, more is “more better.” At 1800, you’ll likely recover the animal, if the bullet were well placed, but the tip will only have opened to somewhere between 3/4-1x shank diameter. Not exactly “expansion.”
 
Bfh_auto said:
Wouldn't the more likely option be step up to a slightly bigger caliber, so you get better penetration and emphatic kills. I'm not talking magnums. Even a 308 has more than enough trajectory for well placed shots at 400 yards.
Click to expand...
It would. And, while I don't want to get into a caliber debate, part of my efforts here are about trying to stay with the 243 before moving up to the 30-06. But yeah, I could buy a 30-06 and have "one gun to hunt them all."
 
suggest you step up in caliber if you are wanting to shoot @ 300 yards. the 243 win doesn't have enough remaining energy for that shot, imo. go to a 30-06 w/ cup-and-core and no worries.

luck,

murf
 
I haven't read everybody else's comments yet, but here goes.

D.B. Cooper said:
Choose. But choose wisely.

I'm putting together a load for caribou for my 243 Winchester using an 85 grain Barnes TSX HPBT (not the tipped) projectile and Hodgdon Superperformance powder. I need to choose between the most accurate load or the fastest load.
Click to expand...

While I'm sure a .243 will kill a caribou, I'm not familiar with this bullet and powder. My thoughts pretty much stick to the accuracy vs velocity debate.

My best accuracy was about 1/2 MOA from 42.7 grains. That's near the starting charge of 41.2 grains. I didn't have a chronograph then, so I don't know the velocity, but I estimate it to be about 2900 fps. (I seem to gain or lose about 75 fps for every 0.5 grain change in powder charge.) Next-best accuracy was just over 1 MOA from 43.7 grains at 3052 fps.
Click to expand...

Is your estimated velocity based on published data? Just wondering. I tend to think 42.7... back off on the gas and go for accuracy. However...

Barnes recommends a terminal velocity of at least 2000 fps for proper expansion. According to my ballistics calculator, the 2900 fps load drops to 2000 at 350 yards and is still supersonic at 850 yrds.; the 3052 fps load (is 150 fps even enough to worry about?) drops to 2000 fps at 400 yards and is still supersonic at 900 yards.
Click to expand...

I understand caribou are an open country hunt. Staying above 2000fps at 400yds might be a plus. For most of those distances, it sounds to me like you're looking at having horsepower to spare.

SO...the slower, more accurate charge works out to be a max effective range of 350, and at 350 and half MOA, that's a roughly 1-3/4 group. (I'm not that good of a shooter to hole 1/2 MOA from a field position.) The kill zone on a caribou is roughly 12-14 inches.

The faster, less accurate charge works out to be a max effective range of 400 yards, and at 400 and just over 1 MOA, that's roughly a 4" group.

Just from typing this up and re-reading it, I'm wondering if there is enough difference between these two to make a difference. Both are probably sufficient for my purpose. (Neither are what I would call stellar.) I also have to ask myself if I would even shoot a caribou at 350 or 400 yards.

Anyway. Tanks for reading my lengthy post, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Click to expand...

Well, if you can keep all your shots on a paper plate at 400yds, I'm thinking any of what you're describing will work. But I think I'd be looking to cut the distance in half if possible. I recall somebody saying if you can get closer do it, and if you can get steadier, do that too.
 
D.B. Cooper said:
Thanks. I know exactly what you mean by "pencil effect."
Click to expand...

And don't discount expansion and weight loss when combined w/ good penetration.

Think of it as a shaped charge to the vitals, with the expanded core continuing on to break heavy bone a/o creating a good exit wound.

Would suggest the 100 gr. Nosler Partition loaded to ~ 3,050 fps.

That would get you out to 350 yards (2235 fps/1110 lb-ft) with a little over 12" of drop given a 200 yd zero, or even 400 yards (2130 fps/1010 lb-ft) with 20".

Not a lot of energy at those ranges, but if you can slip the rounds in past the heavy bone - and aim for the off shoulder, they would do the job.

Some informative reading on the cartridge.




GR
 
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While I would almost always say go with the fastest load that still meets your accuracy goals and if its only got a MV of 2500 then so be it...but I dont hunt with monolithics. Just dont think the 243 has enough horsepower to kill adequately at 300 yards with a monolithic. A good cup n core like an interlock..95 grain Hornady SST would be better, especially on any shot further than 100 yards other than a tail on shot...which should never be attempted with a 243 in the first place.
Now, IF a 20 yard shot is fairly likely, then go with a little tougher bonded bullet like an accubond or interbond instead
Just not sure the 243 using any powder can be driven fast enough to have acceptable expansion anywhere close to 300 yards...its just too hard.
OP, are you hunting somewhere with a lead ban requiring you to shoot a monolithic?
Check out garandimals link..good stuff. Learned a TON of stuff off that site.
 
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Stevenvalleyky said:
95 grain Hornady SST would be better,
Click to expand...

I actually have two boxes of those on my bench. No idea how I came to own them. No recall of ever buying them.

Stevenvalleyky said:
other than a tail on shot...which should never be attempted with a 243 in the first place.
Click to expand...

I would say a tail-on shot shouldn't be attempted with any caliber. However, a friend of mine shot a white tail deer tail-on as it was running away. The bullet went through and exited the chest. Flipped the deer over frontward. It never moved again. I'm sure that's an exception and not the rule.


Stevenvalleyky said:
OP, are you hunting somewhere with a lead ban requiring you to shoot a monolithic?
Click to expand...

No. Not at all. I just want a bullet that performs better than traditional ammo. I've been there. It got the job done. But I wasn't happy about how it got the job done.

Stevenvalleyky said:
Check out garandimals link..good stuff. Learned a TON of stuff off that site.
Click to expand...
Reading it right now. It's a long article, even skipping over the factory ammo section.
 
D.B. Cooper said:
It would. And, while I don't want to get into a caliber debate, part of my efforts here are about trying to stay with the 243 before moving up to the 30-06. But yeah, I could buy a 30-06 and have "one gun to hunt them all."
Click to expand...
I thought you had an 06 from previous posts.
Do you have enough twist to run the eld? It would match your velocity and range better than the copper bullet.
 
D.B. Cooper said:
Choose. But choose wisely.

I'm putting together a load for caribou for my 243 Winchester using an 85 grain Barnes TSX HPBT (not the tipped) projectile and Hodgdon Superperformance powder. I need to choose between the most accurate load or the fastest load.

My best accuracy was about 1/2 MOA from 42.7 grains. That's near the starting charge of 41.2 grains. I didn't have a chronograph then, so I don't know the velocity, but I estimate it to be about 2900 fps. (I seem to gain or lose about 75 fps for every 0.5 grain change in powder charge.) Next-best accuracy was just over 1 MOA from 43.7 grains at 3052 fps.

Barns recommends a terminal velocity of at least 2000 fps for proper expansion. According to my ballistics calculator, the 2900 fps load drops to 2000 at 350 yards and is still supersonic at 850 yrds.; the 3052 fps load (is 150 fps even enough to worry about?) drops to 2000 fps at 400 yards and is still supersonic at 900 yards.

SO...the slower, more accurate charge works out to be a max effective range of 350, and at 350 and half MOA, that's a roughly 1-3/4 group. (I'm not that good of a shooter to hole 1/2 MOA from a field position.) The kill zone on a caribou is roughly 12-14 inches.

The faster, less accurate charge works out to be a max effective range of 400 yards, and at 400 and just over 1 MOA, that's roughly a 4" group.

Just from typing this up and re-reading it, I'm wondering if there is enough difference between these two to make a difference. Both are probably sufficient for my purpose. (Neither are what I would call stellar.) I also have to ask myself if I would even shoot a caribou at 350 or 400 yards.

Anyway. Tanks for reading my lengthy post, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Click to expand...
Without knowing your setup it’s impossible to make reloading suggestions.
Myself I prefer accuracy.
 
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