Rabbit/Dove guns

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In my buddies auto loader he uses a IMP skeet choke I believe it is.
If I remember correctly, IMP Skeet is a couple thousands tighter than Improved cylinder, so between an IC and a Mod.
I figured the 12ga would have more reach due to more powder/shot.
All standard target or hunting shells are around 1200 fps, whether it be 10, 12, 16, 20, 28 or .410. You can buy faster go boom shells that will get you into the 1500fps, but they tend to blow out patterns and your shoulder, generally having softer shot unless you go with copper or nickel plating, but for doves this is not necessary. The best thing you can do is buy decent target load whether it's Win. AA, Remington Premiers, or Federal Top Gun target loads. Fiochi makes some decent shells also but are not as common. I usually reload my own to imitate a target load for hunting purposes.
 
I took many rabbits with a 20ga pump gun in my mis guided youth. I use a 12 gauge sxs or 11/48 or a 16 gauge model 11 Remington. They all perform equally as well on dove, quail, or rabbits. On your stack barrel an open choke on the first shot is good with a full for the follow up shot. I have also taken a few limits of dove with a muzzle loader sxs shooting cylinder bore from both tubes.
What’s wrong with a 20ga on rabbit?
 
My favorite gun for hunting nigh on anything is my meat gun. It’s a 16 gauge. It meets in the middle. It belonged to a friends grandfather. I’ve taken many rabbits and doves, I’ve also been known to use the 20 gauge that was my sons first shotgun. Both are single shots. I put two rounds between my fingers and I can reload fast. Secret answer is aim and you don’t need a fancy pump or semi. Just get hits. I would run the condor. Singles point faster because they are lighter. It’s the shooter as much as the gun.
 
I figured the 12ga would have more reach due to more powder/shot.
Reach is determined by choke as far as how tight the pattern stays at distance. More pellets mean the density of the pattern will be more, but the pattern should be the same.
 
Nothing's wrong with a 20 gauge for rabbits, was making the point that 20 gauge is every bit as effective as others, use what makes ya happy. I have also taken quail with a 20 gauge flintlock trade gun.
 
For doves I use a 16ga sxs and for rabbits I use a Ruger single six. I use the 16 for everything up to ducks and geese and then a 12.
 
I’d suggest that you simply don’t overthink your equipment when it comes to shotguns. Know how it patterns, so you know where to hold it. I’ve not hunted rabbit, but I’ve taken many birds. Whatever you choose, practice. I really like 28gauge for doves, personally.
 
Most all my shotguns are geared for light, fast upland hunting---20ga Wingmaster 26in barrel----12ga Wingmaster 26in Light Contour barrel weighing slightly more than the 20ga but with bigger, thicker proportions but much more effective and a Benelli M2 12ga with a 21in barrel and spent the $90 bucks for a slimmer recoil pad which makes the gun fit perfectly.

The camo Supermag 870 26in and a Maverick 20in home defense gun are the exceptions. I prefer the shortest barrel available for each particular model.
 
I have to agree with everyone saying that using the proper choke and knowing how your gun patterns is more important than gauge.

I pretty much use one of my many 410 shotguns for all my small game hunting. I have even outshot guys using 12 or 20 gauges with my little Mossberg 410 pump.

My dad has an old Montgomery Ward/Western Field single shot 410 that shoots with an extra tight pattern that I have used for turkeys successfully as a kid.
 
For rabbit hunting I like a light gun because I am walking a lot and going through thick cover . Dove , I am sitting so the weight is not a concern , I can't hit one anyway .
 
Mine is/was an old Fox Model B for near 30 years.
Steel shot requirement made her obsolete:(
I have some higher end guns than the Fox Model B, but I love that old gun. 20 gauge with double triggers. Lead shot is still legal in the free states, so it's still in use. :)
 
I've loaded thousands of shotgun shells in 12 and 20 gauge with a variety of shot size, wad types, muzzle velocities and shot weight, and patterned hundreds of rounds (well, at least a hundred, probably a lot more) from various chokes and barrels. Choke can only do so much. And wads can have as much of an impact on pattern diameter and density as choke, and in some cases more. And muzzle velocity can play a noticeable role.

The reason that a round runs out of "reach" is due to the pattern breaking up or spreading out and becoming so sparse that there isn't enough density to get the job done. The additional pellet capacity of a 12 gauge can provide for greater effective reach than the smaller gauges, all else being equal.

IME, if you don't pattern your gun with the exact loads that you are shooting, you have little idea what the gun is doing, pattern wise or POI wise. It's a giant fallacy to think that you just pick up a gun with a Modified (or whatever) choke, and stuff a random shell in it, and it's going to shoot the text book "modified" pattern at a given distance. In 50+ years of shooting I've found that shotguns can be pretty sensitive to load development, generally speaking. In fact, more so than rifles in many cases.
 
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The reason that a round runs out of "reach" is due to the pattern breaking up or spreading out and becoming so sparse that there isn't enough density to get the job done. The additional pellet capacity of a 12 gauge can provide for greater effective reach than the smaller gauges, all else being equal.

The proper choke for the job at hand does more than a wad. The wad separates from the shot about 5 yards from the muzzle. - It is the choke and velocity that determine the pattern. Too many think they need to shoot loads in the 1350-1600fps range - Faster typically means a more blown pattern with lots of holes in it as opposed to 1200fps. Faster ammo also results in a LOT more recoil to the shoulder; remember the velocity is squared in the recoil calculation. The 12 will allow for more density simply because of larger payload; but shoot an equal payload in 12 and 20 and the difference is minimal to negligible.
 
The proper choke for the job at hand does more than a wad. The wad separates from the shot about 5 yards from the muzzle. - It is the choke and velocity that determine the pattern.
My testing showed that wads can make a substantial difference in pattern density (total spread) at various distances, and some difference in uniformity. I found differences between some brands and types of conventional wads, not to mention wads like Flite Control or Ballistic Products. An extreme case, my HD gun with the Full choke tube will shoot S&B factory 00 buckshot loads insanely wide -- like 15-18" at 12-15 yards! -- vs. a fist-size group with Flite Control wads. (S&B buckshot has the most minimal "wad" of anything I've seen in decades.)
Too many think they need to shoot loads in the 1350-1600fps range - Faster typically means a more blown pattern with lots of holes in it as opposed to 1200fps. Faster ammo also results in a LOT more recoil to the shoulder; remember the velocity is squared in the recoil calculation.
I agree. The reason I mentioned muzzle velocity (though I didn't elaborate) was just as you said. Based upon my testing, lower muzzle velocity is my preferred in almost every case. The pattern holds together enough better that you can clearly see it on the pattern board (most likely a function of aerodynamics), AND by the time you get out to 40 or 50 yards where people naturally THINK the extra MV would help, the shot charge has lost a big portion of the extra MV that it started with, AND the pattern is worse. I'd rather hit the target with a more uniform pattern traveling a bit slower than to have holes opened up in the pattern. Again, you can see the result on the pattern board. And the lower recoil makes for faster subsequent shots.

The 12 will allow for more density simply because of larger payload; but shoot an equal payload in 12 and 20 and the difference is minimal to negligible.
Agreed on the equal payload point, and that's why I own and often use the 20 gauge -- because it's perfectly adequate and even preferable for some shotgun tasks. It has the advantages of lighter weight, lower recoil, and lower cost to reload. But ultimately, if range is of significant importance, the additional pellet capacity of a 12 gauge can provide for greater effective reach than the smaller gauges, all else being equal.
 
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If I remember correctly, IMP Skeet is a couple thousands tighter than Improved cylinder, so between an IC and a Mod.

All standard target or hunting shells are around 1200 fps, whether it be 10, 12, 16, 20, 28 or .410. You can buy faster go boom shells that will get you into the 1500fps, but they tend to blow out patterns and your shoulder, generally having softer shot unless you go with copper or nickel plating, but for doves this is not necessary. The best thing you can do is buy decent target load whether it's Win. AA, Remington Premiers, or Federal Top Gun target loads. Fiochi makes some decent shells also but are not as common. I usually reload my own to imitate a target load for hunting purposes.

I've loaded thousands of shotgun shells in 12 and 20 gauge with a variety of shot size, wad types, muzzle velocities and shot weight, and patterned hundreds of rounds (well, at least a hundred, probably a lot more) from various chokes and barrels. Choke can only do so much. And wads can have as much of an impact on pattern diameter and density as choke, and in some cases more. And muzzle velocity can play a noticeable role.

The reason that a round runs out of "reach" is due to the pattern breaking up or spreading out and becoming so sparse that there isn't enough density to get the job done. The additional pellet capacity of a 12 gauge can provide for greater effective reach than the smaller gauges, all else being equal.

IME, if you don't pattern your gun with the exact loads that you are shooting, you have little idea what the gun is doing, pattern wise or POI wise. It's a giant fallacy to think that you just pick up a gun with a Modified (or whatever) choke, and stuff a random shell in it, and it's going to shoot the text book "modified" pattern at a given distance. In 50+ years of shooting I've found that shotguns can be pretty sensitive to load development, generally speaking. In fact, more so than rifles in many cases.

My testing showed that wads can make a substantial difference in pattern density (total spread) at various distances, and some difference in uniformity. I found differences between some brands and types of conventional wads, not to mention wads like Flite Control or Ballistic Products. An extreme case, my HD gun with the Full choke tube will shoot S&B factory 00 buckshot loads insanely wide -- like 15-18" at 12-15 yards! -- vs. a fist-size group with Flite Control wads. (S&B buckshot has the most minimal "wad" of anything I've seen in decades.)

I agree. The reason I mentioned muzzle velocity (though I didn't elaborate) was just as you said. Based upon my testing, lower muzzle velocity is my preferred in almost every case. The pattern holds together enough better that you can clearly see it on the pattern board (most likely a function of aerodynamics), AND by the time you get out to 40 or 50 yards where people naturally THINK the extra MV would help, the shot charge has lost a big portion of the extra MV that it started with, AND the pattern is worse. I'd rather hit the target with a more uniform pattern traveling a bit slower than to have holes opened up in the pattern. Again, you can see the result on the pattern board. And the lower recoil makes for faster subsequent shots.

Agreed on the equal payload point, and that's why I own and often use the 20 gauge -- because it's perfectly adequate and even preferable for some shotgun tasks. It has the advantages of lighter weight, lower recoil, and lower cost to reload. But ultimately, if range is of significant importance, the additional pellet capacity of a 12 gauge can provide for greater effective reach than the smaller gauges, all else being equal.

Okay guys I ran into something and need advice. I found a ton of Federal high brass, game loads in #8 1oz and some other Federal and Winchester #8 1oz for the 20ga but no Winchester AA. I grew up grabbing a cheap box of shells and shooting stuff like pheasants and rabbits and never really put much thought into shot size/OZ. Is the Win AA a better shell because of tolerances, etc or would any #8 1oz shell work? I plan on buying 4-6 boxes and hitting the skeet range soon. If Win AA are the best I can get I will have to order from Midway or somewhere.

I'm pretty excited to do this again this September. I am debating on buying a vest or just a bandolier for shells. Last year I took a small cooler and put the doves in after shooting them and just grabbed shells from the Walmart bag as needed.
 
Every Walmart I have been to has AA on the shelf. Most of the game loads use a softer shot that deforms more going down the barrel. 1 oz loads are okay, but most target loads for 20 ga are 7/8oz. Go with that if you can't find 1 oz, the 7/8 would probably perform better than a game loads in 1 oz.
 
Every Walmart I have been to has AA on the shelf. Most of the game loads use a softer shot that deforms more going down the barrel. 1 oz loads are okay, but most target loads for 20 ga are 7/8oz. Go with that if you can't find 1 oz, the 7/8 would probably perform better than a game loads in 1 oz.
I’m finding AA just not 1oz
 
The only way to see which is best is to pattern your gun . Winchester patterned slightly better than Federal , but only slightly and the Federal was cheaper , so that is what I shoot . Remington didn't pattern no where near as good and that was what I was using until I patterned my gun . I did this with #6 shot , not #8 .
 
Winchester Super X is a good game load, should be able to find it in 1oz in a local store. Fiocchi Golden Pheasant is a plated shot that would work well. If you are going to go shoot some skeet and sporting clays, just stick with standard 7/8oz target loads, AA, Rem STS, even Remington Gun Club shells have a decent hard shot in them. Then pick up a couple boxes of the 1oz if you want and at least pattern them before hunting with them. I'm assuming you are in Ohio, should be some clay ranges near you somewhere. I'm west of Ft Wayne IN, shoot mostly at Kosko Shotgun Sports in Warsaw. I think there is a site called Clay Targets Online that has a listing of places to shoot.
 
Winchester Super X is a good game load, should be able to find it in 1oz in a local store. Fiocchi Golden Pheasant is a plated shot that would work well. If you are going to go shoot some skeet and sporting clays, just stick with standard 7/8oz target loads, AA, Rem STS, even Remington Gun Club shells have a decent hard shot in them. Then pick up a couple boxes of the 1oz if you want and at least pattern them before hunting with them. I'm assuming you are in Ohio, should be some clay ranges near you somewhere. I'm west of Ft Wayne IN, shoot mostly at Kosko Shotgun Sports in Warsaw. I think there is a site called Clay Targets Online that has a listing of places to shoot.
Yes I’m in Ohio. We have a club 10min away with trap, skeet and sporting clays. Any suggestions on which I should shoot? I did trap a lot to get ready for pheasant season. Only shot the course where they fly from left/right and up and down. Not sure what to call that.
 
ohihunter2014, I agree with what others have said about patterning the different shell options in the gun(s) and at the distances that you will be shooting at the range.

Re: the brass height, I prefer low brass, all else being equal. High brass is really just a marketing gimmick, low brass is easier to resize when reloading, and I see no need to waste the extra brass.
 
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