Colt Detective Special - reload details

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David Rosen

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I'm working on an FPS video game with very realistic firearms, and wanted to sanity check some of the details of the Colt Detective Special. I'm planning to eventually experiment in person, but I don't live somewhere with easy access to guns and ranges (SF, there used to be some nearby ranges with gun rentals but they all closed in the last couple years), so thought I would ask here for now!

1. What happens exactly if you try to close the cylinder while the hammer is cocked? I can see that the trigger safety blocks the cylinder latch from moving backwards far enough to open the cylinder, but it's not obvious what would happen if you close it. I would guess it closes 90% of the way and won't go further?

2. Can you use the hammer and trigger normally while the cylinder is open, and even dry fire? It looks like you can, but thought I would double check since it doesn't seem like you can do that with the S&W Model 10.

3. If you close the cylinder without indexing a specific chamber, can you choose to rotate either CW or CCW until it indexes, or does it only go CW?

4. With the .38 special, is there always enough expansion to prevent a fired cartridge from sliding out from the cylinder just with gravity? I'm keeping track of how many extractor rod hits it will take to dislodge each round, but not sure what the correct distribution should be. Right now it's zero for un-fired (just fall from gravity), and for fired it's (one [80%] two [15%] three [5%]).

5. Are there any recoverable malfunctions aside from extractor rod overruns, light primer hits, and bad ammo (either non-firing, hang fires, or improperly seated primers or bullets)?

The idea is that by teaching players how guns actually work, they will be more likely to use them correctly in real life. E.g. if the player tries to holster the Detective Special with the hammer cocked over a loaded chamber, it's likely to go off and they'll have to start over from the beginning.

Thanks!

Edit: Here's the 3D model we made, including all the internal parts:
 
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The idea is that by teaching players how guns actually work, they will be more likely to use them correctly in real life. E.g. if the player tries to holster the Detective Special with the hammer cocked over a loaded chamber, it's likely to go off and they'll have to start over from the beginning.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but you should become familiar with the subject matter first, and a really good place to start is by reading the manufacturer's manual. Then think real hard about teaching firearms use without having been trained as an instructor - even in a game.

I'd make a point of reading as many as you can on modem revolver models so you get a sense of how they work, generally. But to your questions:

1) Modern revolvers are designed to prevent opening the cylinder while the hammer is cocked. If you have a revolver that is cocked and the cylinder is opened, you either defeated this interlock or the revolver is broken. (In the case of the Colt, I stand corrected).

2) See #1.

3) Generally you can rotate either way but the preferred way is in the normal direction. For a colt it would be clockwise, for smith and for ruger counter.

4) What you mean to ask is do the spent casings after firing stay in the charge holes or do they fall free via gravity? In a clean revolver, brass casings generally will fall free. Depends on charge hole diameter, cartridge make, clean or dirty. The extractor/ejector is there to positively eject the spent casings. You can assume it needs to be used every time, that is what anyone who uses a revolver does.

5) I know you want to capture all recoverable possibilities, but I couldn't say myself. Aside from a broken part, a non-firing round is recovered from by pulling the trigger again to fire the next round. Some other malfunctions like bullet pull or primer flow into firing pin hole can be recoverable, or not.
 
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4. With the .38 special, is there always enough expansion to prevent a fired cartridge from sliding out from the cylinder just with gravity? I'm keeping track of how many extractor rod hits it will take to dislodge each round, but not sure what the correct distribution should be. Right now it's zero for un-fired (just fall from gravity), and for fired it's (one [80%] two [15%] three [5%]).

On this narrow issue, understand that the ejector star of a swing-out cylinder revolver like the Det Spl works on all cartridges/brass in the gun at the same time.

There's not a big element of chance in this. If the correct technique is used - a sharp, full stroke of the ejector rod with the cylinder back facing downward - ejection should be very, very close to 100% unless there's some problem with grip clearance, which should/would be solved by the user changing the grips on the gun to not interfere.

If someone is giving the rod a short stroke or a really soft hit, or holding the gun pointed downwards, there's a very high chance of a case slipping under the star and having to be manually removed while the ejector rod is fully depressed. At that point, no additional number of ejector rod strokes will clear it. But this situation is a symptom of some specific problem, and not something that just randomly occurs 20% of the time and is resolved by repeating the same flawed technique again.
 
Why Detective Special, they haven't been made in years?

2. A Colt will cycle with the cylinder swung out, a Smith will not. Not a likely situation, the gun is unbalanced for dryfire practice.

4. Loaded rounds will fall out; SOME fired cases will but not all or even a majority. Proper technique is to raise the muzzle and stroke the ejector rod sharply. Massad Ayoob Stressfire teaches slapping the rod. Not as fast as thumbing it but positive.

5. A true misfire is immediately "recoverable" in a revolver. A rim under the extractor is recoverable but tedious.
A bullet pulled by recoil or "squibbed" into the cylinder/barrel gap calls for a lengthy time out and tools.
Powder granules under the extractor due to poor reload technique or poor powder choice is not recoverable in the time span of a typical gunfight.

Grip intereference on the unload and the reload if with speedloader are possible.
Colt and Smith cylinders rotate in the opposite direction. This was a training issue in the days of belt loop or pouch carry of individual rounds for the reload. Policemen had to learn which way in case they were in such desperation as to load only one or two rounds; they had to be placed correctly to come up.
 
Thanks for the replies so far! For some context, the player's avatar is meant to be an average person with just enough training to know what a sight picture should look like, and they find a random gun in pretty bad condition, and they have terrible luck, so malfunctions are intended to be much more common than they would be for a real professional or enthusiast.

I also would like to take into account any input that the player might give the game whether it makes sense or not: it would be super weird to open the cylinder, cock the hammer, and then try to close it. But the player might try to do that, so I would like the results of that action to make sense to someone who owns that exact model.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but you should become familiar with the subject matter first, and a really good place to start is by reading the manufacturer's manual. Then think real hard about teaching firearms use without having been trained as an instructor - even in a game.

That's a good point: I've been doing my best given the circumstances! I've read the manufacturer manuals, and a bunch of books intended for gunsmiths and competition shooters and shooting incident reconstruction officers, and watched a lot of Hickok45 and Forgotten Weapons and so on, and detail stripped a few real guns and put them back together again, and been to the range a dozen times to shoot maybe twenty different guns, but I am definitely not qualified as an instructor and have not repeated any actions nearly enough to be physically proficient at anything. I've basically just done a lot of things one time each to get the general idea.

The game is not going to be marketed as a training tool, but I'm hoping it does inform people of the very basics. Most people I encounter in daily life don't know that a semi-auto can fire without a magazine in it, or that some guns can fire without cocking the hammer first. I'm hoping to at least convey that level of information, and a general sense that guns are more complicated than they look in James Bond or Call of Duty.

Why Detective Special, they haven't been made in years?


I'm trying to pick them based on historical and cultural significance, and how different they are from each other -- the Detective Special was a significant milestone in the history of concealed weapons, and iconic in detective films. The game also has the S&W Victory Model 10 and the Colt SAA. I'm thinking of adding a Ruger LCR for a modern contrast, maybe with a polymer grip, internal hammer, and 5 or 8 round capacity (so they're not all six-shooters). I'm open to suggestions!

There's not a big element of chance in this. If the correct technique is used - a sharp, full stroke of the ejector rod with the cylinder back facing downward - ejection should be very, very close to 100% unless there's some problem with grip clearance, which should/would be solved by the user changing the grips on the gun to not interfere.

My thought process was that with poor maintenance, weak arms, or inconsistent ammo, casings might sometimes get stuck in the ejector star itself and need more than one hit to dislodge? I'm not sure where I got that idea from, maybe it's not a thing. I hadn't thought much about how orientation or short strokes would relate to the star overrun, that seems important.
 
Howdy

The Colt Detective Special 1st Issue was manufactured from 1927 until 1946. This one left the factory in 1934. Notice how short the ejector rod is. Obviously it is that short because the barrel is only 2" long.

detectivespecialrightside_zps525a5b35.jpg


Later, the Detective Special 2nd Issue went back into production from 1947 until 1972. The 3rd Issue with a shrouded extractor rod was made from 1973 until 1986. An updated model featuring a transfer bar and updated lockwork was introduced in 1997, and a 357 Magnum version was offered in 1998. The book I am taking this information from was published in 2007, so I cannot comment on more recent developments.



Because the ejector rod is so short, the extractor has a very short throw. In this photo I have pushed the ejector rod all the way in with my thumb. The empty 38 Special cases have only been extracted about half way. That is as far as the extractor can extract them. I have to laugh at your question about allowing gravity alone to dump out the empties. When I first started shooting Cowboy Action with single action revolvers, a lot of shooters would show up at the unloading table, open the loading gate, and thump the grip on the table to extract each empty, relying on gravity and momentum to dump out the empties. I would then ask them if they were aware there was an ejector rod mounted under the barrel whose purpose was to shove out the empties. I have never taken any kind of combat training, but I can tell you anyone who tries to rely on gravity alone to dump out the empties is looking for trouble. As stated, you point the gun skyward and give the extractor rod a good shot to dump out the empties. I use my thumb, just as you see here, except the barrel will be pointed almost all the way up. If I don't give the ejector rod a good thump, Enough momentum will not be built up and one or two cases might get stuck partway out.

Ejector%20Rod%20Full%20Extension_zps2dl3snzz.jpg




Trying to close the cylinder with the hammer cocked is a no go. I'm not going to take this revolver apart to see exactly why, but something inside is preventing the cylinder latch from sliding back the extra 1/16" or so so the cylinder can close.

My Detective Special is completely happy to let the trigger and hammer mechanism work while the cylinder is open, but I can't imagine why anyone would want to do that.

E.g. if the player tries to holster the Detective Special with the hammer cocked over a loaded chamber, it's likely to go off and they'll have to start over from the beginning.

What? Aside from it being a really dumb move to holster a cocked revolver, unless you manage to snag the trigger when returning to leather, it is not going to go off. That's one reason the trigger guard is there. Unless you have a Fitz Special or a Fitz Colt. John Fitzgerald was a gunsmith who would cut away the front of the trigger guard so the trigger finger could access the trigger from the front, rather than having to come in from the side. So if you holstered a cocked FItz Special, you might run the chance of snagging the trigger on something when returning the gun to leather. But that is the whole point of a double action revolver. You don't have to cock it for a quick first shot, you just yank the trigger in double action mode.




The game also has the S&W Victory Model 10

You are making a very common error in nomenclature here. There is no such thing as a S&W Victory Model 10.

A little bit of S&W history:

In 1899, Smith and Wesson introduced a six shot 38 Special revolver called the 38 Military and Police (38 M&P for short). This was Smith and Wesson's first 38 caliber revolver with a swing out cylinder. It featured a medium sized frame that came to be known as the K frame. This revolver was sized to be the perfect size to house a cylinder that could accept six 38 caliber cartridges.

Here is a photo of a 38 M&P, model of 1899.

Model%201899%20Nickel%2003_zpsfqm7uk8u.jpg




By 1905 some changes had been made to the internal lockwork of the 38 M&P, and the lockwork has remained basically the same right up to today.




The Victory Model was a version of the 38 M&P made specifically for the war effort during World War Two. Manufactured between 1942 and 1945, it was given the name Victory Model for obvious reasons. The Serial Number had a V prefix to note this. Because of the need to make a lot of these in a hurry, S&W did not put the time and effort into putting their typical highly polished deep blue finish on the outside. However just as much care went into the inside as any other S&W revolver. Here is a photo of a Victory Model. Note the dull finish, smooth uncheckered service grips, and lanyard ring at the base of the grip frame. Victory Models only came with 4 Inch barrels. The versions made for American service men were chambered for 38 Special, while a different chambering for the 38 S&W round was sent to our allies in Britain.

vvictory%20model%2001_zpsu0h6ract.jpg




While I'm on the subject, here is why you cannot operate the trigger or hammer of a S&W revolver if the cylinder is open. On the left side of the revolver is the thumbpiece that opens the cylinder when pushed forward. On the inside, the thumpiece is connected to a bar that rides in a slot. At the rear of this bar is a raised nub. The arrow in this photo is pointing to the raised nub. With the cylinder open, the thumbpiece stays pushed forward. The nub then prevents the hammer from moving. When the cylinder is closed, a spring pushes the thumbpiece back, so the hammer is free to move. This feature can easily be defeated however by pushing the thumbpiece back while the cylinder is open. However since it is a two handed operation, this is not conducive to dry firing the revolver with the cylinder open. I don't know why you would want to do that anyway.

While we are looking at the inside of this Victory Model, we can see the old style hammer block that was staked in place in the side plate. This hammer block was made of spring steel, and the spring action of the steel normally kept the raised portion at its top positioned between the hammer and the frame, so the gun would not fire if accidentally dropped on the hammer spur. When the action was operated, a ramp on the hand would engage a tab on the hammer block, retracting it into its slot in the side plate so the revolver could fire. However in 1944 a sailor was killed when a Victory Model discharged when it fell to the deck of a Navy warship. The subsequent investigation found that cosmoline that had not been properly removed had probably hardened and prevented the hammer block from springing to its 'safe' position. Under strict orders from the military S&W redesigned the hammer block in the space of a week, and put a new version in production. All Victory Models with the new style hammer block in them had a SV serial number prefix. All S&W revolvers up to this day have this new style hammer block inside.

victory%20model%20hammer%20block%20with%20arrow_zpshbhyoymq.jpg




OK, getting back to the naming conventions. In 1957 Smith and Wesson came up with a new system of Model numbers. Gone were the old names such as 38 M&P or Triple Lock, Victory Model, Hand Ejector, or lots of other model names. The old 38 M&P became the Model 10. That's why there is no such thing as a Victory Model 10. Collectors sometimes refer to the 38 M&P revolvers as pre-Model 10s, but you won't find that name in any S&W catalogs.

Here is a comparison photo of a Model 10 at the top, and the Victory Model at the bottom. The Model 10 wears typical checkered Magna grips and has the typical high luster blue finish. Notice the different shapes of the front sights. Notice too the different shapes of the hammers. This style hammer appeared in the early 1950s. The lockwork was slightly redesigned for this new hammer giving it a shorter throw in single action mode. Also, the deep gullet in front of the hammer spur and the much deeper checkering on the hammer spur makes a sweaty thumb much less likely to slip off the hammer when cocking it for single action shooting. Trust me on this. Model 10s came with several different barrel lengths, this one happens to be 4 inches long. I'm still looking for a nice Model 10 with a 6 inch barrel.

Model%2010%20and%20Victory%20Model_zpsrzxkiyl9.jpg




Here is a look inside of the Model 10 showing the modern style hammer block. The hammer block is the long thin piece the arrow is pointing to. The hammer block rides in a slot in the side plate. A pin has been added to the rebound slide. This pin operates the hammer block. You can see the pin poking through the bottom of the oval shaped hole at the bottom of the hammer block. The hammer block is actually a redundant safety device inside a S&W, they always have been. The top of the rebound slide has a bump on it. In this position with the trigger forward, the bump on top of the rebound slide has wedged itself under the bump on the bottom of the hammer, forcing the hammer to retract about 1/8". This pulls the firing pin back from any cartridge under the firing pin. Notice the hammer block is positioned between the hammer and the frame, but the hammer is not actually touching it. If the revolver were to be dropped onto the hammer spur with enough force to break off the bottom of the hammer, or crush the rebound slide, then the redundant hammer block would do its job of preventing the hammer from jumping forward, firing a round. When the hammer is cocked, or the trigger is pulled, the pin on the rebound slide pulls the transfer bar back and down in its slot in the side plate, and the revolver can then fire.

Model%2010-5%2002%20with%20arrow%20to%20Hammer%20Block_zps2nvfcgpg.jpg




Ejecting Empties out of a 4 inch barreled K frame Smith is much more positive than with the short barreled Colt Detective Special. I am holding the ejector rod at its full travel with my thumb, and the shells have actually cleared the chambers by a tiny amount. Of course, I would never rely on gravity to dump the empties, I always use the ejector rod. That's why it's there.

Extractor%20at%20Full%20Stroke_zpsvejqlr6k.jpg




P.S. I can probably help you with the Colt Single Action Army, but I don't know a thing about the Ruger LCR. Don't own one and I don't intend to.
 
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Most people I encounter in daily life don't know that a semi-auto can fire without a magazine in it, or that some guns can fire without cocking the hammer first.

SOME semi-automatics can fire without a magazine in it, many cannot unless it has been modified to remove a safety.

A Brazillion threads have been created discussing the advantages and disadvantages of magazine disconnects. Basically the magazine disconnect safety is fairly common; for example all the Browning HiPowers and clones came with magazine disconnects and many police departments required magazine disconnects on all their semi-automatics. Smith & Wesson semi-automatics through at least the third generation came with a magazine disconnect but my newest Smith semi did not have one. My Walther PP does not have one while my Bernardelli Model 60 does.

Also many handguns do not have a hammer and quite a few "Hammerless" handguns do have one.
 
1. What happens exactly if you try to close the cylinder while the hammer is cocked? I can see that the trigger safety blocks the cylinder latch from moving backwards far enough to open the cylinder, but it's not obvious what would happen if you close it. I would guess it closes 90% of the way and won't go further?

You will damage the cylinder star and the cylinder hand and you may not get the cylinder closed in the process.
 
Slight digression.

The Victory Model was a version of the 38 M&P made specifically for the war effort during World War Two. Manufactured between 1942 and 1945, it was given the name Victory Model for obvious reasons.

Did Smith and Wesson call it the "Victory Model" or is that a collector's term like "pre-Model 10?"
After all, Smith and Wesson Military and Police No V7* was just like M&P No 999999, they had been making guns on US and British military contracts for a while. They just didn't want to get serial numbers in the millions.
(*The first five or six "Victory Models" were polished up to commercial standard for presentation to VIPs to celebrate a million guns of that one model made.)
 
Years ago Colt advertised that a safety feature of their revolvers was that the cylinder could not be opened if the hammer was cocked, and the cylinder could not be closed if the cylinder was open and the hammer was cocked.

The feature that does this is the internal automatic hammer blocking safety lever.
Here's a schematic of a Colt "D" frame. This one is a Diamondback but the same action was used for the Detective Special and all other "D" frame models.
Click on the picture to expand it.......

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/gun-manufacturer/colt/revolvers-colt/detective-special

The key part here is part number 44, which is the hammer block safety.
When the hammer is cocked or the trigger pulled this part slides upward to clear the path of the hammer and allow the hammer to move forward and strike the primer.
At the same time it blocks rearward movement of the cylinder latch, part 26.
Part 26 interlocks with the cylinder latch finger piece part 25.
So, when the hammer is cocked or the trigger pulled the safety, part 44 blocks the cylinder latch assembly and prevents the cylinder from opening.

When the cylinder is open and the hammer cocked, the cylinder latch assembly can't move to the rear to allow the cylinder to push them back and close, and in addition, the hand, part 24 that advances the cylinder is in a forward position and further prevents the cylinder from entering the frame.

The old Colt action had two main safeties: a rebounding hammer and the hammer block.
The rebound feature functions when the hammer falls and the trigger is released.
When the trigger is released to reset the action, the rebound lever, part 41 presses on the lower-rear of the hammer and forces the hammer to pivot backward away from the primer, or "rebound", and is then locked there.

In case of dropping the gun on the hammer and driving the hammer forward, in the early 1900's Colt added a "Colt Positive Safety".
This is the safety lever, part part 44.
When the trigger is released, the safety is pulled downward into the path of the hammer, so even if the rebound safety feature is broken or forced, the safety lever will prevent the hammer from striking a primer.

This set the standard for revolver safety that lasted until Colt began using a transfer bar safety-ignition system.
About the only way a Colt revolver, like all modern revolvers can fire, is if the trigger is deliberately pulled.
This rules out the old plea: "The gun just went off".
It CANNOT "go off" unless the trigger is pulled.
 
Did Smith and Wesson call it the "Victory Model" or is that a collector's term like "pre-Model 10?"
After all, Smith and Wesson Military and Police No V7* was just like M&P No 999999, they had been making guns on US and British military contracts for a while. They just didn't want to get serial numbers in the millions.
(*The first five or six "Victory Models" were polished up to commercial standard for presentation to VIPs to celebrate a million guns of that one model made.)

Howdy

I spoke a little bit loosely when I said the Collectors sometimes refer to the 38 M&P revolvers as pre-Model 10s. I have several reference books about S&W revolvers, but my go to book is The Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson, by Supica and Nahas. This book lists S&W 38 model names such as .38 Military and Police 1st Model (Model of 1899 Army-Navy Revolver), .38 Military and Police 2nd Model (Model of 1902), .38 Military and Police Model 0f 1902 - 1st Change, .38 Military and Police Model of 1905 (.38 Hand Ejector , 3rd Model), .38 Military and Police Model of 1905 - 1st Change, 38 Military and Police Model of 1905 - 2nd Change, 38 Military and Police Model of 1905 - 3rd Change, .38 Military and Police Model of 1905 - 4th Change. Each of these designations usually accompanied a specific engineering change. Of these the 4th Change was the most numerous, being manufactured from 1915 until 1942 with 758,296 made. Also, interestingly enough, the Serial Number range for this model was 241,704 through 1,000,000.

From 1940 until the end of WWII most of S&W production was devoted to production of 38 M&P revolvers for the war effort.

SCSW calls the version of the 38 M&P that was sent to the British Commonwealth nations during WWII the .38/200 British Service revolver (Model K-200). This is because this model was chambered for the 38 S&W cartridge loaded with a 200 grain bullet. SCSW calls out the Victory Model as .38 Military and Police "Victory" Model. Interestingly enough, the only revolver that SCSW gives the name Pre-Model 10 to is the .38 Military and Police (Postwar) that was made from 1946 until the name was changed to Model 10 in 1957.

I did a bit more research. According to Roy Jinks in his 1977 book History of Smith and Wesson, on March 11, 1940 a group of 38 Hand Ejector Model of 1905 Fourth Change revolvers were made for the British Commonwealth nations. These were identical to the earlier 38 M&P 4th Changes except they were chambered for the 38 S&W cartridge. Because the cartridge was loaded with a 200 grain bullet these revolvers were nicknamed the 38/200 British Service revolvers. These were the famous Lend Lease revolvers that were sent to the British Commonwealth nations from 1940 until production ceased on March 29, 1945, with 568,204 being produced. Most of them were marked United States Property or U.S.Property. This model was made with 2", 4", and 6" barrels. The great majority of these had the dull finish, although a few early ones had the bright blue finish. it is reported that the last revolver of this series was delivered to British Ambassador Lord Inverchapel in 1947. This one had the normal high polished blue finish.

Jinks states that on April 24, 1942, SN 1,000,000 was reached. At that time, S&W began a new series starting with the prefix V. The American version of the Victory Model was made with 2" or 4" barrels (I did not know that).

Jinks states Victory Model production ended on August 27, 1945. SCSW says that about 242,291 of both the British and American versions were manufactured.

I have an interesting collection of illustrated S&W dealer line cards. These line cards do not show specifics of what year and change the models were, they are only listed as Military and Police, or 38 Military and Police. My collection of these line cards in not complete, but although S&W changed over to Model Number designations in 1957, the line cards did not show Model Numbers for several years. The earliest line card I have showing Model Numbers is dated 1964. This one lists the old names, such as .38 Military and Police, and in smaller print calls out Model No. 10. I have a S&W catalog from 1970 that only shows Model Numbers.

The Victory Model is not listed in any of these references, probably because it was only offered to the public on a limited basis.

Also interestingly enough, I know a fellow S&W collector who vehemently claims there is no such thing as a Pre-Model 10.
 
Also interestingly enough, I know a fellow S&W collector who vehemently claims there is no such thing as a Pre-Model 10.

Well, if you asked Julius Caesar when his birthday was, he was not going to say "July 12, 100 BC," either.

The difference between a M&P 4th change and a "pre-model 10" is the action. There were some transitional models with the old long action made after the war but they soon went over to the short action which was not changed much until the MIM era.
 
According to SCSW the new short throw hammer was introduced April 7, 1948, at SN S990,184. This was a couple of years after the .38 Military & Police (Postwar) -"Pre-Model 10" was introduced in 1946. After the short throw hammer was introduced the postwar model was indistinguishable for the from what later became the Model 10 in 1957.
 
According to SCSW the new short throw hammer was introduced April 7, 1948, at SN S990,184. This was a couple of years after the .38 Military & Police (Postwar) -"Pre-Model 10" was introduced in 1946. After the short throw hammer was introduced the postwar model was indistinguishable for the from what later became the Model 10 in 1957.

The collector who set me straight on the SW board said only the short action guns "indistinguishable... from what later became the Model 10" should be called "pre-Model 10."
He termed the postwar Long action guns as "transitional."
 
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