Instructor Tip: Don't be a show off

Status
Not open for further replies.
how do you know if someone's a firearm instructor? because they've already told you 15 times within the first 1 min after meeting them. (or at least once in every thread they post in.) firearms instructors and ego problems go together like muppets and fisting. idk why.

that basic truth has nothing to do with whether or not one should demo live fire. and who cares if they bet students or not? if I say "you should be able to do x by the end of class" and a student tells me x isn't possible, i just might offer them a chance to put their money where their mouth is. i wouldn't start by saying "ok who wants to bet i can do x". that's kinda douchy

as to demoing...
my thoughts are that it depends on what is being demo'd.
basic gun safety and marksmanship: no need to live fire
anything controversial, e.g. point shooting: you'd better be able to demo
anything difficult: you'd better be able to demo

with the following caveats:
if you have augmented your instruction with well produced videos of you demonstrating techniques, then live fire isn't strictly necessary
if you are accomplished and knowledgeable, but for reasons of old age, bad health, injury or whatever, unable to continue performing techniques like you used to, then your credibility and coaching are no less valuable, but you should figure out some way to accomplish what a demo would
 
OP opinion Cliff Notes:
As an instructor, your personal level of shooting skill has nothing to do with making the students better. Check the ego and don't be a show off. Stay focused on making the students.


Story Time:
Last night I ran into another instructor and we started talking.

Turns out he is a CHP instructor and has been to the FBI training school on training. Good credentials, IMO.

We start comparing notes on stuff (like you do) and he mentions that he often requests his students to perform some very difficult shooting. I agree. That's what classes are for. redefining the limits of the shooters ability.

He also mentions that many students balk at the task shooting he asking of them. Claiming that it is "not possible".

I agree that a lot of seemingly impossible shots are more possible than many people think.

He then tells me that he has gotten "so many free dinners over the years."

I kinda have a confused look on my face. "Free dinners?"

"Yep. I bet them dinner that I can make the shot. Usually I bet them that I can cut a playing card in half at 7 yards and just like that: free dinner!"

At this point I have a course starting in just a few minutes, so I make a parting comment:

"I have to get going, but I make it a point to not shoot during my classes. I will do dry fire demos, but in my mind, my personal shooting ability has nothing at all to do with making the students better shooters. If they want to see me shoot, they have to come to a match or be in the same class (where I am a student as well). Anyway good talking to you and have a great night."

He shrugs. We shake hands and exchange names. I get going to my class.


So what's your take?

Do you see value in an instructor showing students how good they are?

Am I missing something?

Have you been in a class where a the instructor demonstrated his prowess with firearms and did it add to the value of the course?
I only shoot if they ask me to shoot. And then usually only one fast mag on multiple steel targets so they can see how fast you can shoot effectively with some practice. After that they generally speed up and do pretty well.

I don't do trick shots for free Taco Bell though.
 
Showing off is stupid. However, if you really know about the neuroscience of motor control, there are systems that watch someone perform a motor task and then try to duplicate that action in your own motor control systems. Been studied for several years. Thus, watching someone competently perform an action is a good thing. They are called 'mirror neurons'. I've seen Tom Givens discuss them, IIRC and I used to teach about them in the neurophysiological sections of various courses.

Here's a discussion by some well respected instructors (Given, House). https://civiliandefender.com/2017/1...ighting-smarter-high-yield-defensive-handgun/
 
how do you know if someone's a firearm instructor? because they've already told you 15 times within the first 1 min after meeting them. (or at least once in every thread they post in.) firearms instructors and ego problems go together like muppets and fisting. idk why.
Is this an attempt at humor? Being a firearms instructor isn't particularly a big deal; in my job, it doesn't provide any additional status, and I'd have to say that of all the instructors of my acquaintance statewide (except for a couple) almost none have "ego problems" and most are generally pretty humble people.

Perhaps you're referring to those folks who teach down at the local gun club or for commercial money-making ventures and not those of us in the public sector?
 
I shoot with the kids I coach sometimes. (I coach HS Trap) If a squad is short, I'll go out. It's gratifying when they beat me, and the others watching often try something I do. (stance, pre-shot routine, ect.)
I did give one student her come-uppance in an Annie Oakley this summer, but she literally asked for it. It was down to her and I and she insisted I shoot the next turn left-handed. I asked her if she was sure that's what she wanted, and she comfirmed it. I said, "OK..." shouldered the 1100 on my left shoulder, she called pull, missed, and I smoked it.
I agree, betting the students (although that worked with me with my old coach...) is something I wouldn't do.
BTW, don't feel too bad for that girl. She shot me out of the two Annies before that one.


how do you know if someone's a firearm instructor? because they've already told you 15 times within the first 1 min after meeting them. (or at least once in every thread they post in.) firearms instructors and ego problems go together like muppets and fisting. idk why.

that basic truth has nothing to do with whether or not one should demo live fire. and who cares if they bet students or not? if I say "you should be able to do x by the end of class" and a student tells me x isn't possible, i just might offer them a chance to put their money where their mouth is. i wouldn't start by saying "ok who wants to bet i can do x". that's kinda douchy

as to demoing...
my thoughts are that it depends on what is being demo'd.
basic gun safety and marksmanship: no need to live fire
anything controversial, e.g. point shooting: you'd better be able to demo
anything difficult: you'd better be able to demo

with the following caveats:
if you have augmented your instruction with well produced videos of you demonstrating techniques, then live fire isn't strictly necessary
if you are accomplished and knowledgeable, but for reasons of old age, bad health, injury or whatever, unable to continue performing techniques like you used to, then your credibility and coaching are no less valuable, but you should figure out some way to accomplish what a demo would

So you're self-taught, eh?
 
Do you see value in an instructor showing students how good they are?

Am I missing something?

Absolutely. Success, however, small, breeds more success; failure discourages.

Earlier this year, I had hit a wall shooting a revolver in USPSA. I couldn't boost my hit ratio, and I couldn't get my times down. After numerous suggestions, I sought out a professional trainer. The most notable experience about that one on one training was the trainer's positive, uplifting demeanor. (And this is coming from a guy who is steeped in the military tradition of trainers and those in authority insulting, demeaning, and tearing you down in an effort to make you perform.)
 
I agree with you Corporal Agarn. While at the academy we had a firearms instructor who was very good with teaching firearms. The class that I was in knew I was an avid shooter and tried to get me to compete with the instructor on a one on one to see who was better. I of course turned it down but the instructor came up to me and said lets go. I obliged him and when we started at the first line. By the time we were mag dumping I felt pretty confident that I was ahead. When we were at the finish line I looked at my target and to my surprise were more holes in it than I shot! The instructor purposely shot at my target. At that moment I knew he wasn't a show off.
 
An instructor must naturally be able to demonstrate all exercises that he expects students to execute, and he should be able to execute them flawlessly. There is nothing wrong with the instructor even adding additional elements of difficulty in a few of his demonstrations. Flawless demonstrations on command legitimizes an instructors credentials much more than certificates on the wall of the office or his online bio. If an instructor is performing the drills during range side instruction, he is showing his ability to do the drill, so there is no need for "side bets".
This is the way training is (or at least SHOULD be) conducted in the military, which is where most of my background is. To accept the title of instructor, an individual naturally should be a Subject Matter Expert on all class material. He must not only be able to lecture and answer questions, but demonstrate the task. In addition, he must not only be able to execute the drills, he must be able to identify problems the students are having, then identify the root of the problem and the required steps to correct it. This includes problems with form, equipment issues, etc. After all, the purpose of the instruction is to improve performance.
On the other end, when I was undergoing basic qualification courses as a contractor with the Dept of State, I had a very rude awakening. Not only was the material delivered in a less than stellar manner, (little if any demonstrations, poor delivery of material in general) I found that a few of my fellow students had previously worked overseas as "Firearms Instructors" with that agency, and had graduated a specific course to gain that title. They had later opted to become "security operators" and were going through the course with me. Naturally, I figured that these individuals were very "handy with a gun", and that I would learn a thing or 2 from them. As it turns out, the job title of "FI" only entails going through a course on safety and range commands for running shooters through qual tables. In the army, a NCO who can read from a book that comes with the range can do that job. Many of these individuals struggled to execute the drills themselves while achieving the minimal scores. So I guess the definition of "instructor", and what an instructor should and should not be vaires, depending on everything.
 
and he should be able to execute them flawlessly.
I guess there would be 0 qualified instructors for Sporting Clays then, and dang few for Trap or Skeet. ;)

And yet I teach/coach Trap. I also was a range NCO in the Army, as well as taught there, too. I wasn't perfect, but because were weren't a unit at the same level as the ones you were in, FL-NC, and I was one of the best we had, as well as the Armorer, the job of getting people to pass yearly quals (Yes, it was a REMF unit) fell to me. I had to coach the BN commander in able for him to pass with his 1911. He'd been issued .38's his whole career to that point, being a Huey pilot.

As has been mentioned, there is a difference between showing how it's done, and showing off. Not everybody can achieve perfection in any discipline of shooting, however, and those that do are usually too busy maintaining it to teach. So sometimes teaching falls to those of us who are less than perfect. ;)
 
I haven't taken any formal classes. But I watch a lot of it on TV! (Of course... you're creative.)

I would expect to see some live fire demonstrations from any instructor I'm paying to be the expert. At least to show the proper way to do a drill, etc.

I mostly teach new shooters or very inexperienced shooters the basics. So live fire demo is not really key. Once they start feeling more confident and working on transitions and faster shooting a demo can be helpful.

For a specific drill or technique or something in an advanced class, I'd definitely want to see it done.
 
OP opinion Cliff Notes:
As an instructor, your personal level of shooting skill has nothing to do with making the students better. Check the ego and don't be a show off. Stay focused on making the students.


Story Time:
Last night I ran into another instructor and we started talking.

Turns out he is a CHP instructor and has been to the FBI training school on training. Good credentials, IMO.

We start comparing notes on stuff (like you do) and he mentions that he often requests his students to perform some very difficult shooting. I agree. That's what classes are for. redefining the limits of the shooters ability.

He also mentions that many students balk at the task shooting he asking of them. Claiming that it is "not possible".

I agree that a lot of seemingly impossible shots are more possible than many people think.

He then tells me that he has gotten "so many free dinners over the years."

I kinda have a confused look on my face. "Free dinners?"

"Yep. I bet them dinner that I can make the shot. Usually I bet them that I can cut a playing card in half at 7 yards and just like that: free dinner!"

At this point I have a course starting in just a few minutes, so I make a parting comment:

"I have to get going, but I make it a point to not shoot during my classes. I will do dry fire demos, but in my mind, my personal shooting ability has nothing at all to do with making the students better shooters. If they want to see me shoot, they have to come to a match or be in the same class (where I am a student as well). Anyway good talking to you and have a great night."

He shrugs. We shake hands and exchange names. I get going to my class.


So what's your take?

Do you see value in an instructor showing students how good they are?

Am I missing something?

Have you been in a class where a the instructor demonstrated his prowess with firearms and did it add to the value of the course?
Disgusted that he made bets ,but if you don't show & tell that it can be done,your not giving PROOF that it can be done !.

I was a Firearms instructor/ R.O. for my agency,and I lost track of how many came down to the range with a "defective pistol" that could " no way in hell hit the target ,let alone the bullseye "

At that point it was up to me to show & tell,and when I did [ yes ,always ] they had to own up to it being the shooter.

Then the lessons and the learning began.
 
If you're teaching anything but basic fundamentals to new shooters you're doing it wrong.
I help coach a H.S. trapshooting team. At the end of last season, we had a cookout/ funshoot. the kids wanted to see the coaches shoot. We reluctantly agreed. I was able to run my 25 with an 1100 that I brought for the kids to use.(not my usual trapgun) As soon as the round was over, I put it back in the rack and walked away.
You gotta know when to quit! Besides.....it wasn't about me. I had my day in the sun. This was for the kids.
 
I have taught a ball park figure of 250 or so students in just a couple years. My credentials as an instructor started at Infantry school and later a combat deployment with the Army. With various schools I went to for better shooting in the military. Many of my students took the lessons I passed on to heart and are in much more firearm focused occupations than I am. One of my best success stories is a member of SWAT in a major metro area. And I have no doubt she can out shoot me. I am fine with that.

My job as instructor was not to win free dinners or other accolades. It was to teach safety and competency. And maybe pass along a little passion for firearms.
 
I think that showing that a drill is possible can help break a mental block.

As a student, I have struggled with some drills and then as soon as I see an instructor shoot the drill I can do it. Some part of my brain says it isn’t possible, then I see it done and suddenly my brain knows it can be done.

Not sure if this works for everyone, but it is helpful for me.
 
OP opinion Cliff Notes:
As an instructor, your personal level of shooting skill has nothing to do with making the students better. Check the ego and don't be a show off. Stay focused on making the students.


Story Time:
Last night I ran into another instructor and we started talking.

Turns out he is a CHP instructor and has been to the FBI training school on training. Good credentials, IMO.

We start comparing notes on stuff (like you do) and he mentions that he often requests his students to perform some very difficult shooting. I agree. That's what classes are for. redefining the limits of the shooters ability.

He also mentions that many students balk at the task shooting he asking of them. Claiming that it is "not possible".

I agree that a lot of seemingly impossible shots are more possible than many people think.

He then tells me that he has gotten "so many free dinners over the years."

I kinda have a confused look on my face. "Free dinners?"

"Yep. I bet them dinner that I can make the shot. Usually I bet them that I can cut a playing card in half at 7 yards and just like that: free dinner!"

At this point I have a course starting in just a few minutes, so I make a parting comment:

"I have to get going, but I make it a point to not shoot during my classes. I will do dry fire demos, but in my mind, my personal shooting ability has nothing at all to do with making the students better shooters. If they want to see me shoot, they have to come to a match or be in the same class (where I am a student as well). Anyway good talking to you and have a great night."

He shrugs. We shake hands and exchange names. I get going to my class.


So what's your take?

Do you see value in an instructor showing students how good they are?

Am I missing something?

Have you been in a class where a the instructor demonstrated his prowess with firearms and did it add to the value of the course?

I dont think it adds anything to the instructional value. If they are taking your class, they are most likely assuming you know your stuff.

Honestly, I try to avoid my local indoor range when they are giving CCP classes. IMO, they take too many students at one time for the instructors to adequately supervise and Ive been swept by more than one muzzle by the trainees.

They also allow the beginner students to shoot their qualification target at 4yds, when there are big warning signs posted everywhere that the range safety minimum is 7yd. Ive asked the range owners about this and they kind of shrug and mumble something about trying to avoid discouraging the noobs by making it easier for them, but I suspect it is to save time by getting more qualifiers through the course faster.......o_O:scrutiny:
 
If the instructor's intention is to show someone that it can be done, that its not impossible, it would help in building a novice shooter's confidence. If a person thinks something only an expert with natural ability can do, they may not even try. In the case of the instruction you speak of my impression of him is that he is stroking his ego, not trying to inspire the novice. Demonstrating good form will help most people with performing a difficult task.
George said everything I was going to say.
 
From a student's perspective sometimes we want to see the instructor demonstrate something whether it's martial arts, shooting, or anything else. As long as it's done in a humble manner and without ego stroking I think it's ok. It sets the mindset for the student that if I pay attention and follow what the instructor says I might be able to perform at that level myself one day.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top