350 Legend and Ohio deer hunting legality... I don't think it is.

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I guess all my speculations could have been solved with a simple email. :oops:

mcb said:
ODNR,

I was writing to inquire if the new Winchester 350 Legend cartridge will be legal for deer hunting in Ohio?

Thanks
mcb
ODNR to mcb said:
This is legal.
Short and to the point, that quote was ODRN's entire email response withholding only the signature of the person that sent it.

I know its all mute at this point now, but given the number of guys I have seen on the internet that have measured factory 350 Legend bullets at .355, and the Winchester rep at the NRA show saying it was 9mm and a few other article talking about Winchester using 9mm bullet making equipment, SAAMI minimum bore area being identical to 9x19mm etc... there is just enough evidence that if you were one of those "conspiracy-theory" types that you might conjecture that Winchester designed the cartridge as a 9mm cartridge, and only after it was done did someone realized that a 9mm cartridge would not be legal in Ohio, a state that is likely a major target audience for the new cartridge, and post development simply started saying it was .357 caliber to avoid the problem. But that might just be the voices in my head talking crazy talk. :rofl:

ANYWAY... seems like it will be legal in Ohio, load-up and blast away, sorry for wasting your time... :D
 
"He indicated that the .357 caliber was very specific and was why 38 Special was legal and 9mm was not."

I may have an explanation for this...
38 is bigger than 357, and even the least seasoned LEO knows a 9mm is smaller than a 357, its also NOT a straightwall case.

Before ya'll get wound up and jump all over me..I KNOW a 38 and 357 are the same diameter, and YOU KNOW they are the same....we cant assume a game and parks guy, who may or may NOT be a shooter, will know that.
 
"He indicated that the .357 caliber was very specific and was why 38 Special was legal and 9mm was not."

I may have an explanation for this...
38 is bigger than 357, and even the least seasoned LEO knows a 9mm is smaller than a 357, its also NOT a straightwall case.

Before ya'll get wound up and jump all over me..I KNOW a 38 and 357 are the same diameter, and YOU KNOW they are the same....we cant assume a game and parks guy, who may or may NOT be a shooter, will know that.

This particular ODNR officer knew that 38 special was .357 in caliber. We discussed it at some length. I got the impression he was fairly knowledgeable on firearms.
 
I guess all my speculations could have been solved with a simple email. :oops:



Short and to the point, that quote was ODRN's entire email response withholding only the signature of the person that sent it.

I know its all mute at this point now, but given the number of guys I have seen on the internet that have measured factory 350 Legend bullets at .355, and the Winchester rep at the NRA show saying it was 9mm and a few other article talking about Winchester using 9mm bullet making equipment, SAAMI minimum bore area being identical to 9x19mm etc... there is just enough evidence that if you were one of those "conspiracy-theory" types that you might conjecture that Winchester designed the cartridge as a 9mm cartridge, and only after it was done did someone realized that a 9mm cartridge would not be legal in Ohio, a state that is likely a major target audience for the new cartridge, and post development simply started saying it was .357 caliber to avoid the problem. But that might just be the voices in my head talking crazy talk. :rofl:

ANYWAY... seems like it will be legal in Ohio, load-up and blast away, sorry for wasting your time... :D


I personally spoke at length with ODNR prior to purchasing my .350 Legend approximately 1 month ago and CONFIRMED that IT IS APPROVED FOR DEER SEASON HERE IN OHIO. The caliber was designed and approved as .357 and the boxes state .357 on them.

The old method of listing specific calibers approved for use in Ohio deer season was changed to criteria stating "all straight walled cartridge calibers from a minimum of .357 to a maximum of .50" and the cartridge caliber of the .350 Legend is .357.
 
IMHO..they should've stuck with maintaining a list of approved calibers to avoid confusion like this and Indiana has gone through for years trying to use "criteria" which everyone gets confused by or "wildcats" around...Google Indiana deer rifles and have fun trying to figure that mess out...
 
Indiana deer rifles.........

Pistol cartridge rifles (PCR) are legal for deer on private and public land.
They must have a case length of 1.16 to 1.8" and be .35 cal or larger.
There is NO straight wall case mandate.

High Power rifles are under a test period, are legal for private land only.
They must have a case length of 1.16 to 3.0" and .24 cal and larger.
And there is a ammo limit of 10 rounds afield.

Some cartridges that meet the specs have been explicitly called out as not legal.

...............................

Not much of a mess IMHO.
Before HP rifle became legal we trimmed .35 rems to meet PCR spec.
Dandy it was.
Now on private ground we don't have to trim .35 rem. But if hunting public we do.
Eh, I'll run full length .35 rem in my Remington 760 and use it on private land.
If I want to hunt public will take my .35 rem Contender pistol.
Same ammo, shoots great.

Handgun spec different than rifle spec :)
 
The problem w the Indiana regs was the IDNR political stunt where they took a line from the HP rifle stuff and
misapplied it to the PCR reg.

Evidently many people can't follow basic outline format, or understand context.
It got a lot of Fudds wound up.

But it was fixed before the hunting season.
Much ado about nothing.

Outgoing DNR head was butthurt about legislature getting HP rifle passed and wanted to be a jerk.
Nothing more.

The fact that many deer hunters, of some supposed education and professional ability..............couldn't see it for what it blatantly was, even when you cut and pasted the freakin' law..............was unsettling.
 
No straight wall case mandate for PCR.
Wildcatters had some fun.
Eh, not many play that game.
Not worth worrying about.

Dtech made .358 WSSM AR uppers.
 
I had ol Bob at BK Bullet Casting trim and load some .35 rem to meet the PCR spec.
They worked fine. For those that don't reload, there are ways to play the game.
Not cheap, but not expensive when you figure out the actual cost of a hunt (like missed overtime at work, gas burned etc).


View attachment 846838
 
I'm still thinking PCR rifle of some sort.
Pops has a fingergroove .44 mag Ruger (I've shot one deer w it).

The .350 Legend looked interesting. Got a kid w iffy shoulder. Had surgery 2 months ago.

Buddy just got his bbl to slap on an upper.
See how it shoots. Factory ammo seems a bit sloppy from what info he sent me.
 
I was looking at 350 Legend load data on Hodgdon's site and realized the bullets they are using are .355" diameter. I was confused since the SAAMI spec calls for a .357" bullet. I e-mailed Hodgdon and asked why they were using 9mm bullets in the 350 Legend. I asked if this was a mistake on their part.

The answer I got was that initially, they tried using the .357" bullets that the spec calls for, but they would not chamber in a SAAMI spec chamber. So they got ahold of Winchester and Winchester stated that .355" bullets are what they use and is what they are sticking with. The Hodgdon rep said this is the first time they have ever encountered a cartridge who's manufacturer deviates from it's own submitted diagrams.

The ODNR regulation on acceptable deer cartridges states "All straight-walled cartridge calibers from a minimum of .357 to a maximum of .50".

As far as I'm concerned this 350 Legend is not legal to hunt deer with in Ohio and I would not take a chance using one until something official is put out by the ODNR.
 
I was looking at 350 Legend load data on Hodgdon's site and realized the bullets they are using are .355" diameter. I was confused since the SAAMI spec calls for a .357" bullet. I e-mailed Hodgdon and asked why they were using 9mm bullets in the 350 Legend. I asked if this was a mistake on their part.

The answer I got was that initially, they tried using the .357" bullets that the spec calls for, but they would not chamber in a SAAMI spec chamber. So they got ahold of Winchester and Winchester stated that .355" bullets are what they use and is what they are sticking with. The Hodgdon rep said this is the first time they have ever encountered a cartridge who's manufacturer deviates from it's own submitted diagrams.

The ODNR regulation on acceptable deer cartridges states "All straight-walled cartridge calibers from a minimum of .357 to a maximum of .50".

As far as I'm concerned this 350 Legend is not legal to hunt deer with in Ohio and I would not take a chance using one until something official is put out by the ODNR.

See my post #27 in this thread. The ODNR responded to my email inquiry and informed me that 350 legend would be legal for deer hunting in Ohio.

I have stated this in other threads on 350 Legend, and my slightly cracked conspiracy theory is that 350 Legend was originally designed as a 9mm (.3555) diameter rifle cartridge and only after they were nearly done with the development did they realize that a 9mm straight-wall rifle cartridge was going to run afoul of several hunting regulations like Ohio and they ex-post-facto changed its nominal diameter to .357 to "fix" the problem. Tin foil hat optional...

350 Legend, 9mm Luger and 357 Magnum all have the same nominal bore and groove diameter. Bore: .346, Grooves: .355. Now both 9mm Luger and 357 Magnum have +.004 tolerance on those dimension. The 350 Legend has only a +.002 on its nominal bore and groove.

Bullet diameters are list as:
9mm Luger: .3555
350 Legend: .3570
357 Magnum: .3580 (.3590 for lead)
All have a -.003 tolerance on the bullet diameter.

But if you look at minimal bore area in the SAAMI specs 350 Legend is the same as 9 Luger and both are smaller than 357 Mag.

I would love to see some people take their 350 Legend barrels and slug them or cast them with Cerrosafe, especially early production barrels. That would be interesting measurements to have out there.
 
I did read the emails you received but I still won't take the chance. The official rules and regulations book says .357 to .500" and that's what I'm gonna go with until printed otherwise. My luck, I would kill a new State record and here would come all the scrutiny and my buck would be denied and I'd be in jail haha. I know that is far fetched but you never know and I don't trust the government as far as I can throw it.

Your tin foil hat theory might be correct but what I was thinking was, why would they develop a cartridge capable of velocities in the ranges of 2000fps around 9mm bullets? That was what I asked Hodgdon also. I asked if they realized that pistol bullets, designed for impact velocities in the high hundreds to low 1000fps range, are going to fail miserably on game at velocities of 2000fps and above. They said they realized this but since heavy .357" bullets simply would not physically work, they called Winchester and were advised to use .355" bullets.

Oh well. I still have my 45-70 and 45Colt. I was just looking for something else to handload for and thought this was an interesting cartridge until 9mm bullets came into the mix.
 
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Your tin foil hat theory might be correct but what I was thinking was, why would they develop a cartridge capable of velocities in the ranges of 2000fps around 9mm bullets? That was what I asked Hodgdon also. I asked if they realized that pistol bullets, designed for impact velocities in the high hundreds to low 1000fps range, are going to fail miserably on game at velocities of 2000fps and above.
1. It will be legal, get the tin foil hat! lol

2. They WILL design bullets for it that will hold up to higher speeds, why do they only have to use bullets that are available for pistol use??

DM
 
Bullets will be available, as soon as the bullet makers catch up...

I just don't see the problem, except some folks don't have any patience... lol

DM
 
You are better off using a cartridge whose caliber starts off with a "4" than a "3" in Ohio. Yes, you may be right, yes the bullet diameter may be 0.358, but the barrel says 350 Legend. And you may end up proving your case in court, after the game warden takes your firearm and truck.

Don't assume that any lawman is a firearm expert, or really understands the laws he is enforcing. A bud of mine was caught speeding, told the Officer that he had guns in the vehicle (he was coming back from an XTC match) and the Officer called in the "serial number" of his AR15. The Officer called in only the numbers, ignoring the letters of the "serial number". The serial number was an alpha numeric number, like A2345C67. Something like that. Well, what do you know, at least seven firearms with the "serial number" 234567 had been reported stolen, and bud went to jail that night. And then, after friends bailed him out, he had to go to court, weeks later, and a whole day off from work later, to get everything cleared up and his stuff back.

Now, if the barrel is stamped, 40, 41, 43, 44, 45, or any other number larger than 357, such as 360, you might pass go without having to lay down your get out of jail card.
 
Just drive to your Ohio deer hunting spot ....56 in a 55.

Itll make up for any .350 legend legal drama
 
Dont care what Winchester says. DNR folks can easily make an allowance for the cartridge. Maybe late for legislation or hunting rules print outs. Can still post something on site and in general media.
 
I e-mail the Ohio DNR Wildlife division and asked if the .350 Legend cartridge is legal for deer hunting in the state of Ohio. I received the answer yesterday. Yes the .350 Legend is legal for use in Ohio. I have the e-mail saved on my phone and I will be ordering my rifle this weekend.
 
So though my profile says I am in Alabama I grew up and hunted in Ohio for most of my life. I always dreamed of hunting deer with a rifle there, but for all the time I lived there it was a slug only state, though they did add handgun hunting in the late 1990's. Unfortunately I moved out of the state the year they allowed straight wall cartridges for the first time so I have not yet had a chance to hunted with a rifle in my home state. I have several rifles now that would be legal and given my Ohio roots I was intrigued by the 350 Legend.

Now Ohio hunting regulates for rifles have change since it was first allowed in the 2014-15 season. The first two or three season it was rifles chambered in one of a very specific list of cartridges (like 357 Mag, 44 Mag, 45 Colt, 45-70, 50-90 etc). Since then the law has change and reads as follows: "All straight-walled cartridge calibers from a minimum of .357 to a maximum of .50."

At first blush it would seem that 350 Legend would be legal. And I admit that from the first I assumed 350 Legend would be legal in Ohio but at the NRA show I stopped by the Winchester booth and was talking to a Winchester representative there about the 350 Legend. In the course of the conversation I asked specifically what diameter bullet the 350 Legend used and he replied, "9mm". I followed that question up and asked him specifically," You mean it uses a .355 diameter bullet rather than a .357 diameter bullet" and he replied in the affirmative.

Now you would think .002 inch would not be a big deal but the regulation for legal handgun cartridge in Ohio reads with very similar language: "With 5-inch minimum length barrel, using straight-walled cartridges .357 caliber or larger." In the case of handguns several years ago I called the ODNR office and talked to an officer about this regulation and asked if it would be legal to hunt deer with a 9x19mm handgun and was told it would not be legal. I asked him if a 38 Special handgun would be legal and he replied it would be. He indicated that the .357 caliber was very specific and was why 38 Special was legal and 9mm was not. So at least at that point in time when Ohio said .357 or larger than meant that very specifically.

So if that interpretation has continued into the new rifle regulations, and as far as I can see there is no reason to believe its changed, and that the person I talked to in the Winchester booth was not mistaken on the bullet diameter, then it would appear that 350 Legend is not a legal deer hunting cartridge in Ohio.

That was a lot of rambling... Thoughts from other Ohio hunters?

This is answered on the ODNR site as YES, you can use the 350 for Ohio deer.
heres the link:http://wildlife.ohiodnr.gov/stay-in...i-use-the-350-legend-for-deer-hunting-in-ohio
A friend of mine was wondering about his 351 so this prompted me to look into it.
 
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