Pistol > 50 yrs old. Still need an FFL?

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Orion8472

Orion8472

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Title pretty much says it all. I have a pistol on gunbroker that is more than 50 years old. A guy sent me an email asking if it is C&R [I suppose he has one], but when it is a pistol, does it still need to go to an FFL?
 
A C&R is an FFL. If the gun is definitely 50+ years old you can ship directly to the C&R holder. However, it may be less expensive to go through a regular 01 FFL holder since you will have to ship a handgun UPS or FedEx next day air. An 01 FFL can ship through the post office.
 
Orion8472 said:
Title pretty much says it all. I have a pistol on gunbroker that is more than 50 years old. A guy sent me an email asking if it is C&R [I suppose he has one], but when it is a pistol, does it still need to go to an FFL?
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If it is over 50 years old it is Curio & Relic eligible. BUT, as a seller you need to think about shipping it out through an FFL. If you are an FFL you simply exchange copies of both licenses. The C&R license is an FFL license, a Type 03 license as opposed to the Type 01 common to gun dealers.
 
Yeah,...I forgot about the requirements of sending a pistol through the mail...that it has to go the expensive route. I'll just insist that it goes from my FFL.
 
scott klaverkamp said:
There is a list of firearms that don't qualify for C&R even if they are over 50 yrs. old
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No, there isn't.
There ARE firearms that no longer meet the definition of C&R because they were altered or modified from their original condition, but there is no "list" .

A regulation implementing federal firearms laws, 27 CFR §478.11, defines Curio or Relic (C&R) firearms as those which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios-relics
To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within one of the following categories:
1. Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;
2. Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
3. Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF's C&R list. Therefore, ATF does not generally list firearms in the C&R publication by virtue of their age. However, if you wish for a classification of your particular firearm under categories 1 or 2 above and wish your item to be listed, you may submit the weapon to the Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division (FATD) for a formal classification.

Please note that firearms regulated under the National Firearms Act (NFA) may be classified as C&R items, but still may be subject to the provisions of the NFA. If your C&R item is an NFA firearm (e.g., Winchester Trappers) and you desire removal from the NFA status, you must submit it to FATD for evaluation and a formal classification.
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dogtown tom said:
No, there isn't.
There ARE firearms that no longer meet the definition of C&R because they were altered or modified from their original condition, but there is no "list" .
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Original CONFIGURATION, not condition, otherwise exactly

And even some minor changes are allowed, such as replacing a damaged stock with another of correct original type/style
 
lemaymiami said:
Must be getting old... my original issue sidearm that I was allowed to buy for a dollar when I retired out - will be eligible in four years for curio status... Who'd have thunk it?
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I have two AR's, one of which I bought new, that are already C&R's.

Just as anything over 50 years old is automatically a C&R, it would be consistent for anything over 100 years old to be an antique. Remember that in 1968, when antiques were defined, the 1898 cutoff was only 70 years prior. Pre-1919, now, would be a stricter criterion than pre-1899 was in 1968. I think most people would agree that any WW1-era gun is an antique. (Of course it would take legislation to change this.)
 
He may not want to pay and deal with the FFL transfer on he end. Often that is $50 or more and not always easy. Here, I have to go to the FFL twice (lots of miles/time wasted) for a handgun and pay $50 or more depending on which one I go with. When people refuse to accept my C&R FFL on a C&R item I politely opt out of the deal, the added cost and hassle to me simply isn't worth it.

I understand other's concern and have heard many explanations on their side. However, if people started to refuse to sell me mags (when totally legal) or want to make up a required barrel length, etc, etc, I simply opt out of dealing with them. It is their property and they have the option to sell on their terms but as a buyer I also would rather not add the $$ and hassle on my end after going through the steps to get a Federal license.

As a community, if we start making our own rules to make things harder on us all its not going to help any of us.

As the seller you will likely also see more profit on your C&R items (sold as such) as they tend to bring a premium as people don't have the additional cost and hassle of the 01 FFL on their end. I have shipped to guys in the midwest where their closest FFL was over an hour away. I'll get off my soapbox now.
 
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AlexanderA said:
I have two AR's, one of which I bought new, that are already C&R's.

Just as anything over 50 years old is automatically a C&R, it would be consistent for anything over 100 years old to be an antique. Remember that in 1968, when antiques were defined, the 1898 cutoff was only 70 years prior. Pre-1919, now, would be a stricter criterion than pre-1899 was in 1968. I think most people would agree that any WW1-era gun is an antique. (Of course it would take legislation to change this.)
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I most often carry a WWI era or even pre-WWI era handgun. They just really work well.
 
Ohen Cepel said:
He may not want to pay and deal with the FFL transfer on he end. Often that is $50 or more and not always easy. Here, I have to go to the FFL twice (lots of miles/time wasted) for a handgun and pay $50 or more depending on which one I go with. When people refuse to accept my C&R FFL on a C&R item I politely opt out of the deal, the added cost and hassle to me simply isn't worth it.

I understand other's concern and have heard many explanations on their side. However, if people started to refuse to sell me mags (when totally legal) or want to make up a required barrel length, etc, etc, I simply opt out of dealing with them. It is their property and they have the option to sell on their terms but as a buyer I also would rather not add the $$ and hassle on my end after going through the steps to get a Federal license.

As a community, if we start making our own rules to make things harder on us all its not going to help any of us.

As the seller you will likely also see more profit on your C&R items (sold as such) as they tend to bring a premium as people don't have the additional cost and hassle of the 01 FFL on their end. I have shipped to guys in the midwest where their closest FFL was over an hour away. I'll get off my soapbox now.
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Maybe I missed it, but, I didnt see anything suggesting to NOT deal with the 03 holder, nor did I see anything about the buyer having to use an 01 on his end...

I see guys suggesting SHIPPING the gun by way of a local guy who can legally send via USPS.

The 01 can then send the gun direct to the 03 holder by mail...saving everybody money in the process.

Kind of stupid that you as an 03 holder can receive handguns by mail, but, not legally send them by mail
 
newfalguy101 said:
The 01 can then send the gun direct to the 03 holder by mail...saving everybody money in the process.

Kind of stupid that you as an 03 holder can receive handguns by mail, but, not legally send them by mail
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Not true.
A licensed dealer who mails a handgun to an 03FFL Collector of Curios & Relics violates USPS regulations: https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_009.htm
See 432.2 through 432.24
 
The fifty year rule includes everything, including machine guns. Of course they have to be transferred under NFA rules, but they are C&Rs
 
tark said:
The fifty year rule includes everything, including machine guns. Of course they have to be transferred under NFA rules, but they are C&Rs
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Yes. However, the pre-1899 "antiques" definition does not include machine guns (that fire currently-available ammunition). Pre-1899 machine guns still come under the NFA. But a Gatling gun, being manually operated, is not a "machine gun."
 
dogtown tom said:
No, there isn't.
There ARE firearms that no longer meet the definition of C&R because they were altered or modified from their original condition, but there is no "list" .
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Sure there are....they are called antiques.

I hate to use the word ALL when dealing with the guberment....I would not be shocked if there is something that is not on the list.

It really is just silly IMHO.....
 
fpgt72 said:
Sure there are....they are called antiques....
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Wrong.
1. Again, there IS NO LIST of firearms that are not C&R, just as there is NO LIST of antiques that are not C&R. I'll repeat....NO LIST. If you think there is....then provide a link to such list.
2. "Antiques", meaning . "Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica (1) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade." That's a cut/paste from ATF regulation 478.11
3. Firearms meeting the definition of "antique" are exempt from the requirements of the Gun Control Act.
4. "Antiques" don't need to be on a "list", because ALL FIREARMS MEETING THE ABOVE DEFINITION are "antiques" under Federal law.
 
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