Accurate 22: To build or buy

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Quite a lot of people here are the best shots at the shooting range. They all have a $300 rifle that is of far higher quality than any $10,000 custom gun after only an afternoon of tinkering. Those custom gun builders don't know what they are doing anyway. They are better than everyone at shooting and everything else. Of course they all shoot at a different range than you do. On the rare occasions that you do see one of these gun masters at the shooting range, their super awesome rifle is broken so they brought the one that sucks instead. That is the only reason why they are shooting just as good as everyone else. But you still need to be very impressed anyway. And that Toyota out in the parking lot is just a loaner. The Rolls Royce is in the shop.

So VERY VERY TRUE.... everything....and I do mean EVERYTHING on the internet is just hot air.....they show you a photo....yea did they show you how far away it was.....was it their target......do not trust one single thing you read on places like this....use them all then put them in your wittle head mix them up....and shock of all shock MAKE YOUR OWN CHOICE. Sure it could be wrong....you could get a lemon.....welcome to life....no one but your mother said you are perfect and she is not the one to judge you.

And for the record, being one that merely WORKED at a Rolls, Merc, Porche, Jag dealer.....the loaners for that dealer (Roach in KC about.....crap 40 years ago now) all Mercedes sedans.....and all silver with Courtesy Car Provided by Roach bla bla bla, on the back window in white letters.

Perhaps one day I will go down some of the stories from that place....crappy tires on XJ's.......idiot owners....really idiot owners......no wonder the dealer is gone now and an "import" place takes care of most those marks here now.
 
According to what we often see on some shooting forums .22 Rimfire rifles that deliver 100 yd MOA accuracy are as common as mosquitoes in Panama. The reality is that a rifle that will consistently put 5 shots inside a one inch circle is a combination of very good barrel, superb ammo, fine optics and refined shooting technique. Here is a 10/22 I put together some years ago with a Fajen stock and Shilen match barrel fitted and chambered by Ed Shilen. It is a reliable MOA with top quality match grade ammo, but it also reliably demonstrates that a top quality barrel can never compensate for mediocre ammo. Which is why whenever I read, or some tells me, that he has a MOA Rimfire my first question is what ammo he uses. His answer tells me if he knows what is is talking about or just pulling my leg. DSC_0030.JPG
 
Honestly I think most bolt action rimfires can outshoot their owners even with $5 OEM barrels. I think MY Marlin 25N shoots far better than it should for the price I paid. I also think nearly ANY Anschutz rifle could outshoot that Marlin (surely there are damaged ones that can’t). It’s put 5 inside .5” at 50 plenty of times yet has so few outings at 100 yards I’d never consider it a “1 MOA” rifle.

I choose to believe most posters here are honest though many are misinformed or ignorant, if you will, about what constitutes an accurate rifle. Sure my Marlin makes me smile. As a ringer it has surprised a few club shooters in the past, but not once has anyone offered to trade me their 40X for it. Maybe the world is filled with bad shooters owning expensive rimfires, just none of them live in my zip code ‘cause the guys I see on the line shoot very well.
 
This discussion came at exactly the best time. In a couple weeks, I am going to be having back and neck surgery. I am in the process of getting the parts together to build a 10\22, while I am off work, for 12 weeks. It is going to be a sporter, I want it to be more of a stalking through the woods gun, not an all out target gun. I ordered a Tactical Inovations Elite stainless steel, black nitrate reciever and matching match grade bolt. One of my shooting buddies gave me a take off walnut deluxe sporter stock he had and used the action, for one of his builds. I have an aluminum Volquartison billet match trigger on the way. I found a kit with trigger pins, adjustable v-block, screws and small parts. Everyone I shoot with use the Kidd viton and dowel bolt stop, so I have a couple on the way. I am thinking about using a Green Mountain stainless 20" sporter barrel. I have seen some of the GM sporter barrels that shoot very accurate . I am building it, putting it together, with the parts,that I would like in an ideal rifle, to meet the needs and looks in a rifle I want. I am definitely not building it to show off or shoot one hole groups at a 100+ yards. I am going to build it because I can't go to a gun shop and buy this rifle with what I want on it and also want it to be different from a stock gun. I have never built one before and think it would be fun to do. The guys that do build their on, have pride of ownership in what they have put together and may brag a bit. It would be no different than guys that build their big block muscle cars or anything else. It's their hobby and they enjoy it. Everyone should be proud of what they have and they should take pride in what they have put together and built the way they want it to be. It's just what they like to do. To me it's not trying to one up out of jealousy or run down what someone else has. One can read post all over the internet about the guy that has a H&R 999 revolver, that he is just crazy about because he worked overtime and side jobs to buy because of other obligations. He brags it up a bit because he is proud and the next post is the guy running the H&R down because his custom Smith with the outhouse, with gold seats will out shot it. It's not about mine is bigger or better, it's about taking pride in what you have and worked to get. I've been the guy with the H&R or had to sell a firearm that I loved to put meals on the table for hungry kids. Thankfully, I have worked past that and can afford what I want. Sometimes it's best to just listen and not throw in your two cents worth. The old model 60 without the serial number will probably shot good but that's no reason to run down the guy that has what he has great pride in. Be proud of what you have but let the next guy be proud of what he has also and listen because you can learn a bit. One upping is not advice and it offers nothing to learned from either.
 
If a rifle shoots one inch at one hundred yards with S&K Flatnose Match and also shoots one minute of windage, but drops one low every fifteen to twenty, with a much more inexpensive American Standard Velocity, is it still an M.O.A
rifle?

I am of the mind that a minute of angle rifle that drops shots out of the group due to powder variations in a factory loading, is still an M.O.A. rifle. I can blame it for radial dispersion on target, but not for low chronograph numbers.
I see plenty of occasions of competitors losing a match or points from a dropped shot. Is their Anschutz suddenly no longer an accurate rifle? What about the days I've had too much coffee just enjoying the morning and can't hit the Earth, is my rifle no longer the elusive M.O.A.?


I would love to spend a hundred and ten bucks on a box of Lapua rimfire all the time, but the fact is, that is a whole lot of bullets and powder for all the other hungry Flame-Throwers.
I would not go so far as to call a human that spends six hundred dollars on a rimfire barrel, just to have to spend a two hundred a box on rimfire ammo, foolish, especially a competitor...
It's just not my bag, baby.:)

I have plenty of other irons in the fire...
 
If a rifle shoots one inch at one hundred yards with S&K Flatnose Match and also shoots one minute of windage, but drops one low every fifteen to twenty, with a much more inexpensive American Standard Velocity, is it still an M.O.A
rifle?

I am of the mind that a minute of angle rifle that drops shots out of the group due to powder variations in a factory loading, is still an M.O.A. rifle. I can blame it for radial dispersion on target, but not for low chronograph numbers.
I see plenty of occasions of competitors losing a match or points from a dropped shot. Is their Anschutz suddenly no longer an accurate rifle? What about the days I've had too much coffee just enjoying the morning and can't hit the Earth, is my rifle no longer the elusive M.O.A.?


I would love to spend a hundred and ten bucks on a box of Lapua rimfire all the time, but the fact is, that is a whole lot of bullets and powder for all the other hungry Flame-Throwers.
I would not go so far as to call a human that spends six hundred dollars on a rimfire barrel, just to have to spend a two hundred a box on rimfire ammo, foolish, especially a competitor...
It's just not my bag, baby.:)

I have plenty of other irons in the fire...

And then we get to.....well how often do you take that (pick your super cheapie) and feed it the above highlighted type of ammo. Or are you feeding your bottom of the barrel rifle with the most inexpensive ammo you can find.

Rimfire is the one thing we as shooters have zero control over. Pretty much anymore I don't shoot factory center fire.....I roll my own on about everything I have. On rimfire you just can't do that.

This is where my above statements come in....with good ammo even a "cheap" rifle can shoot pretty darn good. Remember the days of hand fitting, and the skill of the dude screwing it together are long gone....so it will really come down to the machines that are rolling out the parts. Just how much better is X barrel over Y?

That Marlin I talked about above shoots everything pretty darn well....but the groups do open up with different ammo.
 
My 10/22 standard barrel was really accurate with Magpul XX stock BX trigger and Simons scope . I got bored with the scope and went back to the challenge of using iron sights.
 
I'm starting to consider just buying a 17hmr or a 17wsm due to their great reputations of accuracy. Match 22 ammo seems to be about the same price as 17 ammo.

There is a savage 17 wsm locally at a gun store for about $250 that has piqued my interest.
 
Or are you feeding your bottom of the barrel rifle with the most inexpensive ammo you can find.

I haven't found Savages to be the bottom...
I have some seventy-five cents a round Centre-X when a CZ guy needs to eat a little crow. If that is what you mean...

It doesn't shoot all that much tighter than the cheaper S&K, a little.(It had better, for the price!) But, like your ruse with the Thunderbolts, when I open a little white box that doesn't say Winchester on it, nerves start to edge.
That's when I look over and scoff in the general direction of their Remington Golden Bullets.;)

everything....and I do mean EVERYTHING on the internet is just hot air...

Of course, if I did shoot small using a less than ten thousand dollar rifle with ammunition with the wrong name and not being personal best buddies with the barrel maker, no human would believe me anyway...

After all the shooter doesnt really do anything.:D

Many ducks have been hunted without Sitka gear, many rounds have been spectacular without Callaway clubs. Are they better? Yes. Yes they are.
Mindset, skill set, tool set. Still in that order. Andretti might not get a Camry to two hundred, but a chef can still cook with knives that are not Ginsu. And I'll bet both are faster than I...
 
I did not intend to suggest Savage is bottom tier....I was thinking along the lines of sub $100 on sale walmart rifles....think along the lines of mosberg plinkster.

As to the other poster....the 17's are amazing....and pretty darn fast, but if you shoot indoors check. Our club's indoor range has steel backing, shooting any of the 17's is a no-no.....they will pit the steel at 25 yards.

But if you want to see a starling vanish in a poof of feathers....17 is the way to go.
 
I've had several sub-MOA .22LR rifles and bought a lot of expensive match ammo, and tested batches at the competition distance of 50 yards, to find the best ones for my rifles. However, until recently, I haven't shot at 100 yards because all my competitions were at 50 yards and shooting expensive match ammo at 100, where wind and mirage play an exaggerated role in grouping ability, was really a waste of money, since there was no competition available for that distance.

Since then, I've played with some old match ammo that doesn't shoot all that well in my sporters and shot a bit at 100 yards and, under good conditions, mainly low wind and mirage, have made MOA groups with my custom, Rem 581, but again, don't have any "real" need to shoot LR at that distance. Since the drop at 100 is about 6" below the 50 yard zero, I don't adjust my scopes for the longer distance.

JP
 
If a rifle shoots one inch at one hundred yards with S&K Flatnose Match and also shoots one minute of windage, but drops one low every fifteen to twenty, with a much more inexpensive American Standard Velocity, is it still an M.O.A
rifle?

I am of the mind that a minute of angle rifle that drops shots out of the group due to powder variations in a factory loading, is still an M.O.A. rifle. I can blame it for radial dispersion on target, but not for low chronograph numbers.
I see plenty of occasions of competitors losing a match or points from a dropped shot. Is their Anschutz suddenly no longer an accurate rifle? What about the days I've had too much coffee just enjoying the morning and can't hit the Earth, is my rifle no longer the elusive M.O.A.?


I would love to spend a hundred and ten bucks on a box of Lapua rimfire all the time, but the fact is, that is a whole lot of bullets and powder for all the other hungry Flame-Throwers.
I would not go so far as to call a human that spends six hundred dollars on a rimfire barrel, just to have to spend a two hundred a box on rimfire ammo, foolish, especially a competitor...
It's just not my bag, baby.:)

I have plenty of other irons in the fire...

Well thought out questions.

For those who actually compete in smallbore competitions, be they prone shooters or F Class, the topic of good ammunition is an all consuming issue, lurking in the background, ready to burst out when a competitor is asked. I know former National Champions who are absolutely maniacal in their brand and lot testing.

Now I have seen lots of 6 OC drop outs with lesser quality match ammunition. The stuff will still shoot well, but the occasional drop out potential is unacceptable for something like a Regional or National Match. I have been shooting this recent acquisition, a MKII BSA, and it shoots well, but shoots more consistently with better quality match ammunition:

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I am quite certain the 6OC shot was due to the ammunition, but, a slight wind gust will move the bullet that much, and you won't be able to see the wind change.
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This drop out was so blatant, I am sure it was not me:

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Cheap ammunition will ruin your score. This target was the last time a shooting bud of mine used TAC22 in his F class rifle.

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He switched to Black Box Eley, and these are 100 yard targets of his, and he is much happier with his groups.

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As some point in barrel quality and chamber quality, the differences in group size will be due to the ammunition. The better ammunition shoots rounder groups. Cheap stuff will fling shots, and I am going to claim, the further you go out, the more obvious it becomes.

The tube and the chambering job are absolutely critical to good accuracy in a rim fire and centerfire weapon. Anschutz ships a factory target with each rifle:

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My first and only 10/22 would put most commercial rounds within an inch and quarter at fifty yards, some groups more horrible than others. Groups with Eley were not that much different than with Federal Lighting's. A cheap barrel and poor chambering job will not take advantage of the accuracy potential of good ammunition. I could place a round in the chamber and rock it by pressing on the rim. The chamber was huge. However, Ruger knew its customer base, the average buyer is a poor shot and only cleans the rifle when it malfunctions. So, to keep those shooters happy, and shooting even though the chamber is full of crud, the chambering reamer is huge. But, I had Volquartsen install one of his Walther barrels, and that thing shoots Eley match into a dime at 50 yards, the same stuff that shot inch + sized groups with the factory barrel. it is not worth spending money on good ammunition to be fired in a poor barrel. I have killed a number of squirrels with the rifle, and that is all I do with the thing. I have no doubt it is as inherently accurate as any other competition rifle, just the ergonomics are inferior to a full up match rifle. My BSA MKII has a 1.5 lb trigger, my BSA MKIII eight ounces, my Anschutz, is too light to measure, and that makes a difference when shooting prone.

This pre WW2 Remington M37 shoots well with good ammunition

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This is a 400-32X fired by me in competition, with Eley Black Box.

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It is very hard to shoot well. Period features include a sling placement impossibly far out, perhaps there because the M1903 sling loop is so far up the stock. The stock was within the Smallbore Prone rules of the time, which were written by the US Army, which made shooters use a rifle not to far from the M1903 configuration. And the trigger, it is great for a service rifle: 3.5 lbs. Again the Army wanted shooters to be using a rifle close to the service rifle which had a 3.0 pound trigger. These ridiculous rules stayed in place until the 1960's. US shooters were having their butts kicked in International Competition by the Soviets. The US M1903 compliant small bore rifles were just not competitive against the modern rifles the Soviets were using. It took time, but the rules were finally changed and they got the flint off the hammer.

The guy who sold me my Rem 37 kept the one that shot these groups. He shot these groups rested with a bipod, in competition. The ammunition he used is vintage stuff, and better than the match ammunition today. At least, that is what Lones Wigger verified. Lones claimed the old standard for accuracy was 152 X's in a 1600 match, and I assume the standard was a 1600-152X. And as Lones observed, it is very rare for anyone to shoot 152 X's any more. So, it is probably the ammunition. Anyone can search the Smallbore Prone National records, and except for the geezer class (seniors) all the National records were set in the 1970's.

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The photo of your dropped shot is just what I was talking about with ammo....you just don't know. Was it a light charge, contaminated powder.....who knows.....in making your own center fire stuff, you have control over more...sure you could get a bad primer....whatever.....but if for some reason the factory screwed up powder.....well it happens in volume in factory ammo.

We have all seen, or read about a box of new ammo with this or that wrong....my last one was some 38 that was missing a bullet....case had a primer but no powder in the box or bullet....inside and out the case looked new. I just loaded the case last night.
 
...think along the lines of mosberg plinkster.

The only firearm ever to spit half a case head at me, and the reason my offspring shoot a Rascal.
I don't know how it happened, but I don't shoot it anymore.

I still keep it as a reminder to not be a foolish old man. My grandfather straight traded a Luger he brought back from Germany for it.:(
Because he didn't have the hundred bucks, and hated squirrels.
He could have bought fifty of them.
If I only had that shop keep in arms reach...:fire:

There is a savage 17 wsm locally

Like this?
https://savagearms.com/content?p=firearms&a=product_summary&s=96972

A friend of mine has one. While not quiet by any means, it is an absolute micro hammer. Like a mini Two Twenty Swift! I am a firm believer in jacketed varmint bullets at high speed and rotational stress. Fragments can't ricochet or pass through. Lead does, well, it does it more.

And that is a good price, too.


If you want to see a Starling vanish in a poof of feathers, 17WSM is the way to go.

Yup!:)
 
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If you are serious about accuracy, buy a 40x receiver or a 40x clone, a good barrel, a Jewell trigger and have a gun built.
Mr. Colt suggest some interesting possibilities here. Mainly in that that a high quality bolt rifle offers the surest path to good accuracy, but also an opportunity to put together something that stands out from the crowd. Here are a couple rifles that have been built around high quality actions actions that retain the fine accuracy of their former self but a lot more. One is a formerly M-52 Winchester target rifle converted to left hand operation plus lots of beautiful custom work The other was once a Remington M-37 target rifle I had "sporterized." The left hand M-52 belongs to my neighbor, whose guns are always nicer than mine... DSC_0147 (2).JPG Rem37-1.JPG
 
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When we were teens, we were very lucky to have any .22 LR rifle and I was no exception. My brother owned a Rem 514 single shot, but gave it to me when he went to college, so I bought a Mossberg 4x scope and had a guy (drill and tap) install it. The guy who installed it was a blacksmith who called himself a gunsmith. (I don't think he liked working on cheap rifles for young kids, because he wrapped the boxed scope and rifle together and literally THREW it in the corner, where there were about 10 other guns.) Anyway, that rifle was quite accurate, and though I never shot it for groups, it killed about anything I pointed it at.

The first .22 rifle I owned was a Stevens semi-auto (model ??) that I mounted a scope on, sighted it in, and went hunting. It also killed about everything I aimed at, until one day, when I shot it at a target at 50 yards and it wouldn't group under about 2 inches!!! Needless to say that the "killing machine" that murdered anything I pointed it at, was traded THAT DAY for a Marlin 39A Mountie! That rifle, with a Williams receiver sight, was also a KILLER that often made 1/2" groups at 50 yards, but it really didn't kill game any better than the old Stevens, IMHO. But it was a cool shooter that everyone loved to shoot and it took a lot of red squirrels in the tops of trees around the camp.

Bottom line is that any rifle that works in its primary job is a great rifle, even if it's not the best target rifle. Most small game is shot under 25 yards in the woods and a rifle that will hit a beer can bottom every time at 50 yards is more than adequate for pest shooting around camp or in the woods. Why? because a rifle that groups 2" at 50 yards is within 1" of point-of-aim at that distance and most small game is shot closer than that, but in reality, about two thirds of the rounds will be within 1/2" of POA at 50 yards and only 1/4" of POA at 25 yards...the maximum distance where most small game is shot in the woods...and there "ain't no scoring rings on critters"!
 
Mr. Colt suggest some interesting possibilities here. Mainly in that that a high quality bolt rifle offers the surest path to good accuracy, but also an opportunity to put together something that stands out from the crowd. Here are a couple examples of rifles that have been built around high quality actions actions that retain the fine accuracy of their former self but a lot more. One is a formerly M-52 Winchester target rifle converted to left hand operation plus lots of beautiful custom work The other was once a Remington M-37 target rifle I had "sporterized." The left hand M-52 belongs to my neighbor, whose guns are always better than mine...View attachment 852572 View attachment 852573

Those are beautiful! I could never use either of them in competition as my equipment gets beat up. Took this to a major event

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and managed to tip it over twice. First time sheared the front sight base off the barrel, second time, managed to shear the front base screw on the scope ring. It did not help that I over torqued the base screw and it was barely holding on.

But, except for wood dents, all problems were fixed.

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@Slamfire that BSA is gorgeous. And that's some great shooting.

It's the best target with irons. There were many more targets I did not take pictures of, that were much worse. Like everyone else, I only brag about the good ones!

I was the only person shooting an antique and it was fun. Many had never seen a BSA and I of course, had to lecture on the advantages and disadvantages. I think if BSA had added an adjustable cheek piece and buttplate, and provided a better grip, the action would still be in production. For 1963 it was an advanced rifle. BSA folded sometimes in the 1970's, their rifles were expensive for the era, and outdated, ergonomically. They will still shoot if you can hold them!
 
The only firearm ever to spit half a case head at me, and the reason my offspring shoot a Rascal.
I don't know how it happened, but I don't shoot it anymore.

I still keep it as a reminder to not be a foolish old man. My grandfather straight traded a Luger he brought back from Germany for it.:(
Because he didn't have the hundred bucks, and hated squirrels.
He could have bought fifty of them.
If I only had that shop keep in arms reach...:fire:

I thought that was a pretty new rifle....whoever did that to a 90 year old man should be brought up on charges.
 
Well, as an update I have inadvertently found myself the winner of a gunbroker auction. I bid on a Savage B22 FV and won. It was $180.

I will have to play with it when it comes in to see what kind of accuracy I can get. I would have preferred the 16" threaded version but again, I very much doubted that I would win it in the first place.

I guess if it isn't a tack driver I'll just sell it off and pursue an auto loader.

Anyone have any experience with these rifles?
 
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