Layoffs at the Arms (Remington)

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Remington is just one example of a legacy company that was unable to adjust to the new global economy. The U.S. economic model after WW2 was that corporations would provide high wages and social services like healthcare and retirement pensions for their workers. With global free markets, the US companies must compete with foreign companies where the government provides these social services. To me, that’s far from a level playing field.

Certainly there is more to the story of Remington than global competition. It’s one factor among many others.
 
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D.B. Cooper said:
This is why I say it's a race to the bottom. The guns we're buying don't have the same quality as the guns my father bought, but, even considering inflation, the guns today are costing as much or more. I can understand and go along with using modern materials for various benefits: composite stocks are usually lighter and tend to remain straighter than wood, carbon fiber to save weight, stainless steel for corrosion prevention, etc., but most of what we see in guns today has only two affects: reduced production cost, increased profits.
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I was under the impression the "quality" of the firearm is it's ability to consistently and accurately discharge rounds down range? A big heap of the cheaper build guns today (especially handguns) are much more reliable ans accurate than their predecessors. I'd wager a boring Glock will shoot rings around a standard 1911 from 50 years ago. Almost no one is laying out cash for a blocky snub nose these days - give that man a compact 9mm. Same goes for rifles, from the budget bolt gun to the various ARs. Pull any one of them from a box, load, and go. They may be ugly and not something of which you are proud to display. If the prettier ones were substantially better, people would not accept the ugly guns that fill store displays today.
 
Off topic,,, however I was in the ‘plastic’ industry for awhile,,, a lot cant be done with molds, and polymer,,etc.

The fit and finish, is what it is.

I remember gun reviews back in the day. Ie. “well, the checkering in only 8 lines per inch, not 12, so it’s a pretty crap gun”. Or. “I saw a 1/16” gap between the wood and the steel,,, quality down the tubes”
 
American Outdoor Brands, which owns Smith & Wesson, shipped around 820,000 fewer handguns and long guns in the year to April 2018. The company’s handgun revenues plunged by more than $230 million or 41% in the year to April 2018…,” Markets Insider reported. Net sales slumped 13% at Sturm, Ruger & Co. in the first quarter of 2019. Olin’s Winchester ammo business also suffered a 4% drop in sales last year and an 8% drop in the first quarter of this year.

Obviously there is a big slump in the market for all Manufactuers. That info was from Business insider. There is also a article about how American Outdoor Brands strategize's to stay afloat. Extremely complex, and a lot of planning and diversity in the market. Sometimes it works sometimes it does not.
 
Remington has a problem. They have a HUGE catalog. However less than 30% of those firearms are available at any given time.

Try finding a Remington wide body 1911/2011 pistol right now.
 
il_10 said:
We're also in our 30's now, so I'd reckon we're close to the biggest buying demographic. It doesn't do a corporation much good to put out an inferior product and hope that nostalgia will keep their sales up...
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Totally 100% agree. Here's the thing for some of you posters of a certain age, the whole "you damn snowflake kids and your vidya games are ruining EVERYTHING!" angle doesn't fly anymore. You can't confuse every young person as a millennial. I am what I consider a Proto-Millennial. I'm old enough to have lived through the 80s and witnessed a lot of the lifestyle Gen Xers through an elementary kid's eyes. I'm 38 years old.

The youngest Millennials are in their mid 20s. They have just basically stopped being kids. Give them a break for not knowing how to navigate the world since conception. Many of the younger ones of my generation have never known a time we weren't at war or were the first to step up and go off to the sandbox right out of highschool. Many have hit their adult stride in a world that was ravaged by a financial downturn not of their making but forced to react to it. Saddled with the debt of an education our parents (many of you all) promised us would lead to a rich and better life, we feel a bit jaded and having every ill of the world heaped upon us for no other reason that either A) existing at all or B) at the very least being the byproducts of how we were raised.

In time, studies have shown, the Millennial generation will most likely lean more conservatively as we are skeptical of everything from capitalism to the government because both have screwed us. That may not mean pro-gun but Gen Z will most likely want to burn the house down, to be honest. Watch out for those guys. Gen Y may be "whiny" but Gen Z is going to want to be revolutionary according to a lot of studies on the first batch getting ready to vote for the first time. Gen Y is much more in line, as time goes on, as being a generation of compromise.

That said, we like what we like. We don't hunt or shoot skeet like Baby Boomers or the Greatest Generation so we don't buy bolt guns and shotguns with 30" barrels. Why is that? Well, I guess y'all didn't take us enough when you were raising us:p So we like military style "tacticool" weapons? Well golly gee. I wonder why that is. 18 years of watching them used in a war and, YES, video games that they are depicted in. None of you older fellas have a SAA or lever gun because of Gunsmoke? No one into 1911s because your dad brought one back from WWII? There isn't a significant population that bought a 92fs because Mel Gibson ran around like a crazed mulleted psychopath in Lethal Weapon? Media drives sales. Young people are targeted by the media.

If Remington wants to survive it needs to 1) not make garbage and 2) make guns that people with mature and disposable incomes want to buy. It's not a generational thing. It's not OUR responsibility to make sure we buy stuff we don't like so that it can be around for you to buy.

Anyway, I apologize. I don't mean come across as harsh, but I sure some of you all don't mean come off equally as cranky old men blaming others for the problems of the world;)
 
D.B. Cooper said:
I'm sorry. I don't usually do this, but in this case, you'll have to prove your facts to me, using reliable, unbiased, peer-reviewed sources, before I believe that. And don't tell me to "look it up." It's your claim, you prove it. Otherwise, it flies in the face of too many years of common knowledge to be believed.
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Not as high as here in the US yet, but rising:

upload_2019-8-3_18-5-45.png


China Wage Levels Equal To Or Surpass Parts Of Europe:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrap...l-to-or-surpass-parts-of-europe/#5762d30f3e7f
 
D.B. Cooper said:
I was already thinking about Winchester before you posted this. I, for one, am really sick and tired of the race to the bottom with all of this cheap-o crap that gun manufacturers are turning out. I miss the days of finely crafted, high quality, American made products.
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You mean like Sig :)
20190716_183511.jpg
 
Fiv3r said:
Totally 100% agree. Here's the thing for some of you posters of a certain age, the whole "you damn snowflake kids and your vidya games are ruining EVERYTHING!" angle doesn't fly anymore. You can't confuse every young person as a millennial. I am what I consider a Proto-Millennial. I'm old enough to have lived through the 80s and witnessed a lot of the lifestyle Gen Xers through an elementary kid's eyes. I'm 38 years old.

The youngest Millennials are in their mid 20s. They have just basically stopped being kids. Give them a break for not knowing how to navigate the world since conception. Many of the younger ones of my generation have never known a time we weren't at war or were the first to step up and go off to the sandbox right out of highschool. Many have hit their adult stride in a world that was ravaged by a financial downturn not of their making but forced to react to it. Saddled with the debt of an education our parents (many of you all) promised us would lead to a rich and better life, we feel a bit jaded and having every ill of the world heaped upon us for no other reason that either A) existing at all or B) at the very least being the byproducts of how we were raised.

In time, studies have shown, the Millennial generation will most likely lean more conservatively as we are skeptical of everything from capitalism to the government because both have screwed us. That may not mean pro-gun but Gen Z will most likely want to burn the house down, to be honest. Watch out for those guys. Gen Y may be "whiny" but Gen Z is going to want to be revolutionary according to a lot of studies on the first batch getting ready to vote for the first time. Gen Y is much more in line, as time goes on, as being a generation of compromise.

That said, we like what we like. We don't hunt or shoot skeet like Baby Boomers or the Greatest Generation so we don't buy bolt guns and shotguns with 30" barrels. Why is that? Well, I guess y'all didn't take us enough when you were raising us:p So we like military style "tacticool" weapons? Well golly gee. I wonder why that is. 18 years of watching them used in a war and, YES, video games that they are depicted in. None of you older fellas have a SAA or lever gun because of Gunsmoke? No one into 1911s because your dad brought one back from WWII? There isn't a significant population that bought a 92fs because Mel Gibson ran around like a crazed mulleted psychopath in Lethal Weapon? Media drives sales. Young people are targeted by the media.

If Remington wants to survive it needs to 1) not make garbage and 2) make guns that people with mature and disposable incomes want to buy. It's not a generational thing. It's not OUR responsibility to make sure we buy stuff we don't like so that it can be around for you to buy.

Anyway, I apologize. I don't mean come across as harsh, but I sure some of you all don't mean come off equally as cranky old men blaming others for the problems of the world;)
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Get off my lawn :D
 
dh1633pm said:
The millennial's may want what they want, but those of us older and more established have the funds.
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So, millennials are broke and can’t afford nice stuff? Got it. I’ll have to run through the safe and let my Falkor, SCAR-17, Larues, and other high end guns know that I’m going to have to re-home them since I obviously can’t afford to keep them.
 
Half of the responses so far boil down to "darn kids." As absurd as that is. I dare anyone to buy a Remington 770 and carry it with any sort of pride or confidence in it's quality. Remington brought a lot of this upon themselves by designing poor quality weapons and selling them. Not to mention they hire just about anyone at the Huntsville plant. I met a worker who worked on the DPMS AR line, and he didn't know the difference between 5.56 and 450 Bushmaster.
 
herrwalther said:
Half of the responses so far boil down to "darn kids." As absurd as that is. I dare anyone to buy a Remington 770 and carry it with any sort of pride or confidence in it's quality. Remington brought a lot of this upon themselves by designing poor quality weapons and selling them. Not to mention they hire just about anyone at the Huntsville plant. I met a worker who worked on the DPMS AR line, and he didn't know the difference between 5.56 and 450 Bushmaster.
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Yeah, nobody can claim, “the darn kids buying video game guns are killing Remington” when Remington is building ARs and suppressors. The bottom line is that Remington has been producing inferior products for a while and now it is catching up with them.
 
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I remember looking at an 870 wingmaster in the 70’s and the older gun guys were comparing the current production guns to 50-60’s era guns and found the “new” stuff wanting.

I finally bought a used 70’s Wingmaster in the mid 80’s and thought it a good gun, same with the 870 express I bought in the 90’s for my sons.

Don’t know what current production looks like but I find it hard to believe they screwed up the 870 so bad they’re worthless.

I just think tastes change attitude changes and consumers vote with the wallet.
 
Zendude said:
Remington is just one example of a legacy company that was unable to adjust to the new global economy. The U.S. economic model after WW2 was that corporations would provide high wages and social services like healthcare and retirement pensions for their workers. With global free markets, the US companies must compete with foreign companies where the government provides these social services. To me, that’s far from a level playing field.

Certainly there is more to the story of Remington than global competition. It’s one factor among many others.
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Many people are out of touch with reality. For example, one municipality in WI actually believed that Tiwanese company was going to build flat screens for TVs there. Job like that in China is about $400 per month. Probably less in Vietnam or India. Are people stupid enough that they think taxpayer will provide subsidies so they have a job or perhaps customer in great city of Atlantis will pay several times more for product they made?
Remington? The only thing from them I would be remotely interested in is RM380.
 
It is hard to tell any more on the internet what is a decent firearm, or one as bad as the Net People say. You always have so many that do not even own a certain gun and will start to bash it.The old Snowball effect. Remington by all accounts is selling thousands of shotguns, Rifles etc. It is hard to believe that people are not lined up by the thousands and complaining and sending guns back. Maybe they are as bad as some people post. I could not tell you, I have not shot one in years, but at this point would not have a problem if I was in the market and got a good deal.
And God forbid a layoff, when production is down. All of a sudden Corporate experts come out of the woodwork to tell you why. Of course you never see any actual proof. I guess the old adage of "You take the internet with a grain of Salt" applies.
 
Jeb, I wouldn't worry about Remington. Want 1911 there is Ruger. Want 700 there is Bergara. Want lever gun there are Henry's and BLR from B.C. Miroku. Want Wingmaster there is Ithaca.......Don't need Remington for anything.
Ithaca had them eight shot Hog Slayers with fully rifled barrels and iron sights for $500. Man, that was a deal.
 
SharpDog said:
Not as high as here in the US yet, but rising:

View attachment 853418


China Wage Levels Equal To Or Surpass Parts Of Europe:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrap...l-to-or-surpass-parts-of-europe/#5762d30f3e7f
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Well thanks for the clarification and verification. I would point out two things. 1.) We're talking about American manufacturing so wages in Eastern Europe aren't terribly relevant. 2) Taking the highest wage posted ($1135/month) works out to $6.55/hour before any tax withholdings. That's about 10% lower than the Federal minimum wage in the United States. (Many states have minimum wages even higher.) To be honest, I'm surprised it's that high. Now ask a skilled machinist to work for $6.55 per hour. That's what "globalism" does to American workers. It's yet another race to the bottom, the only benefit of which is increased profit margins.
 
Fiv3r said:
...but Gen Z will most likely want to burn the house down, to be honest. Watch out for those guys. Gen Y may be "whiny" but Gen Z is going to want to be revolutionary according to a lot of studies on the first batch getting ready to vote for the first time...
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I'm not going to address everything in your post, although it was well-written, even if I disagree with some of it. However, as a teacher with GenZ kids in my classes all day every day, I will absolutely affirm what you've said here.The times they are a changin' and a hard rain's gonna fall.
 
herrwalther said:
Half of the responses so far boil down to "darn kids." As absurd as that is. I dare anyone to buy a Remington 770 and carry it with any sort of pride or confidence in it's quality. Remington brought a lot of this upon themselves by designing poor quality weapons and selling them. Not to mention they hire just about anyone at the Huntsville plant. I met a worker who worked on the DPMS AR line, and he didn't know the difference between 5.56 and 450 Bushmaster.
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Just curious, how many people work at the plant? What was this guys position? Was he a skilled worker? Janitor? Are you saying that the plant has a lay off because of one model that you feel is not quality? You say they will hire just about anybody at the Huntsville plant, how do you know this? Are these minimum wage jobs? Do other manufacturing plants hire only skilled workers in all departments? Can you do some comparisons to other manufacturing plants that are different? I have heard the same kind of disparagement's with many others. Smith and Wesson has suffered some big losses the past few quarters, is it because they brought it upon themselves? How about Ruger, and others? I have over the years, in my career visited many manufacturing plants Lol, I doubt any one of them is really different in the quality of employment for their particular job on the plant assembly floor etc.
Other than disparagement of the Products you feel are not up to standards, what suggestions would you have for Remington Corporate leaders? More diverse investments? Redesign of the marketing structure, and on and on?

I do not own a Remington, but you mention the 770. And I read this about the rifle. "The Remington model 770 is a magazine-fed bolt-action rifle marketed as a lower cost alternative to the popular model 700 and is manufactured in several sporting cartridges. Remington Arms produces various low cost alternatives to its flagship Model 700 including the 788 and earlier 710 on which the Model 770 is based.
So why would you buy a budget gun and complain about the product when you could have simply bought the higher grade? Did you expect you would not have concession's with the difference in price of $350.00 compared to one at $1200?
Lol, I wonder how many people buy a high end Rifle and just pull it out the week before Deer Season?

There are some mighty nice looking firearms in the Remington Catalog. I would love to have the money to buy some. And to make a judgement one way or the other in overall quality with all their firearms would cost a fortune in Money, Ammo and Time. I am betting they have some great products.
I guess most people that bash Remington Products have done this investment. Otherwise it would just be internet gossip.

Remington Catalog

https://remington-catalog.com/catalogs/remington/2019/
 
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D.B. Cooper said:
I miss the days of finely crafted, high quality, American made products.
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I think this nostalgia is somewhat misplaced. There are a number of high quality American made bolt rifles, they just don’t say “Remington” on the receiver. Kimber, Weatherby come to mind. As a millennial I’m not much of an expert on the current bolt market, so I’m guessing there are several I’m completely unaware of.

I wonder sometimes how nostalgic people would be about handguns and rifles from the 60s era if the internet had been around to broadcast/amplify every bad experience someone had with a new product. Maybe the ones in service today are the ones that worked. How many went to a scrap heap?
 
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