Shorty .38 bhn?

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horsey300

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Sooooooo, after much testing I've decided that I can't find a satisfying jacketed bullet to load at .38 sp velocity that will still expand decently (Sierra is yet to be tried) on softer targets (raccoons etc) out of 2 or 3 in barrels, so in a cast bullet, where should I be looking and what would be the optimal bhn?
 
Another thought has occurred to me, I've been trying the 125+ weights, would a jacketed 110 serve my purpose?
 
A bit off topic, but I have an effective load for my 38 Special house gun; I use a cast 150 gr. DEWC, running about 11-12 BHN over a near max load of W231. I wouldn't rely on expansion from a 38 Special cast bullet at any 38 Special velocity...
 
If you want expansion use a tin/lead alloy, 20:1 or 16:1. BHN is way over rated.

Can you expand on that? Thinking about casting some hp cast hunting bullets for my 35 rem and my muzzle velocity probably will not be that high. Would 16:1 be a good idea?
 
A watered down version/place to start: Every 100fps ='s 1bhn or
800fps ='s 8bhn
900fps ='s 9bhn
1000fps ='s 10bhn

While stating different lead/tin alloys is a good thing and casters tend to get better results using lead/tin due to the elasticity tin brings to the table then alloys using lead/tin/antimony. The lead/tin are expensive and not a cure all/plug and play option. A link to article in an American Rifleman magazine from May 1953.
http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/44 spl - may 1953 american rifleman.pdf

The bullets are 44spl's instead of 38spl's but the alloys/velocities/results will give you an idea of what they were getting with 4 different cast hp bullets and 4 different lead/tin alloys.
40 to 1 ='s 8bhn
20 to 1 ='s 10bhn
16 to 1 ='s 11bhn
10 to 1 ='s 12bhn

The original "Lyman" #1 alloy was 10 to 1. The modern "Lyman" alloy being used today is Lyman #2 5%/5%/90% tin/antimony/lead.

Not all hp's are created equal. The depth and shape of the hp will make a huge difference in the performance of the hp. Typical 38spl/2" to 3" bbl velocities run in the 850fps to 950fps range with 150gr to 158gr cast hp bullets. I've cast and swaged my own hp bullets for the 38spl/357's for decades. Did a lot of testing them in 2"/2 1/2"/4"/6"/8"/10" & 12" bbl.'s in revolvers and tc contenders. These are some of the last cast/swaged hp bullets I tested using a 2" bbl'd 38spl.
0A0Ga7O.jpg

Most hp pins for 38spl/357 cast bullets are 1/8" in diameter. Lyman's and h&g pins tend to have round points where the cramer hp pins could have the same rounded point or taper to a point depending on the intended use of that bullet. The top right bullet is a lyman 358158 hp, it was a special order with a .156" hp pin. You used to be able to order the lyman molds with the standard .125" hp or or the larger .156" pin (.156" pins were typical of the 44/45cal molds). The bottom center bullet is a cramer "hunter" bullet that was designed for the 357 with it's small tapered hp. The bullet in the top row 4th going right usies the standard cramer 38spl hp pin which also happens to be .156".

Some 44cal hp's cast from the same mold just different hp pins/shapes/depths.
MGkzk5b.jpg

Penta points hp's ='s 8bhn 800fps to 1000fps
Large round hp's ='s 10bhn 1000fps to 1200fps
Small round hp's ='s 1200fps to 1400fps

For my short bbl.'s 38spl's/9mm's/44spl's/45acp's I typically use a 8bhn/9bhn alloy that's nothing more than range scrap that performs extremely well in the 900fps to 1100fps range. For the 357's and 44mags I use a 12bhn/13bhn alloy of air cooled wheel weights an tin added.

If it was me I'd start with a +/- 8bhn alloy and start testing in wet pack. Wet pack is bundles of newspaper that are taped together 10"/12" and then set in a cooler. Fill the cooler with water and let it sit over night. It typically take being watered 2 times, at the beginning and then then 2 or 3 hours later. Take the cooler filled with wet pack to the range and pull a bundle out, staple a target on it and start testing. Easy enough to recover bullets along with getting an idea of penetration.
 
Yes, but BHN still needs to be accounted for. And if you want expanding lead bullets, you don't want a lot of antimony, and tin is your friend in a reasonable %.

Lead is soft and will expand, tin helps fill out the mold better, and antimony makes the mix harder, but can be brittle and hard dosen't tend to expand well.

The alloy needs to hold the rifling (Not skid) and have enough lube for the trip. .22 bullets do indeed run fast with no leading, and yes, fit is very important, and lead .22s tend to have more than enough lube.

People tend to under estimate how fast a lower BHN bullet can go. Getting a "gentle" start helps.
 
Yes, but BHN still needs to be accounted for. And if you want expanding lead bullets, you don't want a lot of antimony, and tin is your friend in a reasonable %.

Lead is soft and will expand, tin helps fill out the mold better, and antimony makes the mix harder, but can be brittle and hard dosen't tend to expand well.

The alloy needs to hold the rifling (Not skid) and have enough lube for the trip. .22 bullets do indeed run fast with no leading, and yes, fit is very important, and lead .22s tend to have more than enough lube.

People tend to under estimate how fast a lower BHN bullet can go. Getting a "gentle" start helps.

They also forget that "hard cast bullets" 100 years ago meant a 1:16 tin/lead alloy. The same alloy that Elmer Keith used in his development of the .44 Mag.
 
Remington 110 gr +P SJHP (RTP38S10) expands out of my SW642.
I've never loaded the component bullets but they're currently on clearance:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1601270712
The revolvers I'm running aren't stamped +p and while they may digest it in rare circumstances, it won't be their natural diet, I had seen those along with the hydrashoks but all factory counterparts are +p that I have found.
Are you casting your own? Maybe what you need is a bullet design that encourages expansion.

View attachment 853739
I am not set up to cast and it will be a good while before I am, thus here we are lol.

In general guys, I was thinking either a generous cavity hollow point or a wide flat nose, bhn 8-10 (leaning towards 8) would do the trick, I found speer swc in 158 gr but wasn't sure they'd do the trick.
If you don't cast your own, Matt's sells 20:1 lead bullets, hollowpoints and full wadcutters. Hand cast so not cheap plinking bullets but how many do you need?

https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=65&zenid=sf5p4tm1ko6j0f0n9fv9tkft24
I LIKE the 148 hp!!! And as for quantity, I buy in bulk because even though I tell myself that "these are are only for this" when I fall in love with how it shoots, I run out quickly. Price? I've spent about that much on .327, and gold dots errrr.... ummmmm "deep curls" for the .357s. I just happen to have a couple 38s that justify being used lol, a recent addition of a uberti stallion to the stable is driving this search the hardest.
 
Except that .22 LR is around 8 bhn and goes 1300 fps with no leading.

Bullet fit is #1.

I have no idea what bullet fit and leading has to do with the OP asking:
" I can't find a satisfying jacketed bullet to load at .38 sp velocity that will still expand decently (Sierra is yet to be tried) on softer targets (raccoons etc) out of 2 or 3 in barrels, so in a cast bullet, where should I be looking and what would be the optimal bhn?"

Even the makers of 22lr ammo know enough to put a large hp in their +/- 1000fps ammo and a small hp in their hv ammo.

A quality option for hp's and soft lead is to use a forsters hp tool and make their own hp's in the soft swaged lead bullets several different bullet mfg's make. The forster hp tool is used in the forster case trimmers. The last forster case trimmer I bought was used and had 2 different collets, 4 different pilots & the rifle & pistol hp tools for $45. The standard hp bits can be used (1/16" for rifle and 1/8" for pistol) or a 3/16" (.1875") 60* center drill can be used to put hp's in bullets.

You can swage a hollow point hollow base bullet but you can't cast them. Years ago Winchester made a swaged lead hb hp swc bullet for their "FBI" 38spl ammo.
KNwvR1D.jpg

I wanted to do some testing with the hb swc bullet design having hb swc molds for the 35cal's/44cal's/45cal's. I used a forster hp tool and a 3/16" 60* center drill to put hp's in the hb swc bullets I cast. They ended up looking like this.
FTFbMo6.jpg
These bullets were 8bhn/9bhn recovered from wet pack. Interestingly enough not only did the hp expand/mushroom, the hollow base of the bullet did also.
Swqedh0.jpg

Anyway just another option to making custom hp's, opening up existing hp's in bullets that already have them.
 
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