School shootings, a good read

Status
Not open for further replies.
Any time a MSM outlet addresses the topic of violence and shootings without even once mentioning any sort of gun control that is a good sign. Complain all you want but if you actually read the article they make very valid points that gun rights groups have been trying to get across for a long time. It reads more like something from the NRA than CNN. It doesn't appear that most of the people responding have actually read the link. They see it is from CNN and assume it is just a hit piece. Or are reading stuff in between the lines that simply isn't there.
 
This just appeared in my news stream in the last hour ...

View attachment 852068

Another factor is when I was in this age group, late 50's early 60s, non-weapons fights were just boys will be boys, not a matter for Federal data collection.

I think kids these days are under such intense pressure to conform and perform, that they just can't be kids anymore and have an opportunity to learn from their mistakes without being labeled or expelled. I think the "attention deficient" drugs definitely need to be looked into.
 
Personally, I believe the massive use of psychotropic drugs to combat "ADHD" (which most kids don't have) has led to a huge increase oin kids with mental issues ..IIRC, every kid involved in a mass school shooting was on those drugs at one time or another. I believe there is a direct correlation, especially combined with isolation playing games, etc. JMO, YMMV
 
Personally, I believe the massive use of psychotropic drugs to combat "ADHD" (which most kids don't have) has led to a huge increase oin kids with mental issues ..IIRC, every kid involved in a mass school shooting was on those drugs at one time or another. I believe there is a direct correlation, especially combined with isolation playing games, etc. JMO, YMMV

I believe that you are correct as being a boy in school is often treated as a medical condition rather than typical boyish behavior in schools.

Pharmacology does pretty good at treating what the symptoms are but often can have some pretty horrendous side effects in some folks and may only offer palliative care for the underlying medical issue.
 
X2 on the psychotropics. Every shooter from the Texas bell tower on down. You can look it up. Never have that problem with cigarettes and alcohol. Get them kids smokin' and drinking again. No one ever shot up a school with a poundin' headache and throwin' up his shoes. Here's to Lucky Strikes and sloe gin.
 
My personal take is:

1. Kids (and others) have lost respect for other people
2. Kids (and others) have become more isolated as their attention is dominated by TV, Computers and video games and less by community and team activities.
3. That is directly correlated to the rise of secularism and the diminishing role of religion in our society.

I would change the 3 for the role of family and parenting.
 
One thing that stood out to me was reading that 26 of the 27 deadliest mass shooters grew up without a father.

That, to me, is more significant than any association with pharmaceuticals because it's hard to say if pharmaceuticals create unstable individuals or if unstable individuals are just more likely to be on pharmaceuticals.

Causality seems pretty clear when the boy has no father.
 
From the gun control debate side of it this is the one thing that I always keep coming back to. The AR-15 rifle has been around for 50 years now. WW-2 surplus rifles such as the M-1 have been readily available to the public and at one time were dirt cheap since at least the 1950's. And in reality it doesn't do anything the AR doesn't do. You can probably name at least a dozen other weapons just as capable as the AR going back a very long time. And while those weapons were readily available the only time I can recall one being used until recently was the University of Texas shooting in 1966.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Texas_tower_shooting

The tools have been available for a long time, yet they haven't been used. And when you get right down to it a firearm is not an efficient method for mass killings. Take away the guns and more efficient methods will be used by those wanting to commit these crimes.

Something has changed, and it isn't the tools. But so far the only solution many of our leaders can come up with is to eliminate the weapons. Which we all know isn't the problem. It's good to see someone in the MSM admit that. Admit that we don't really know the answers, and admit that no one is looking for real solutions.
 
My dad went to small rural schools. I went to elementary in a county school, then to junior high and high school in city school when schools were just starting to get consolidated (over 1,000 students).
Schools today are like the massive federal prisons: huge numbers of people crowded together; you survive by joining cliques (gangs) which require conforming to the standards of the clique.
The oddballs and outsiders get marginalized, under siege, oppressed. Those having trouble coping get labelled and fed sedatives which doesn't solve the problems they're having trouble coping with, which is often bullying by cliques.
Gun control is not going to address the causes of these outbursts.
 
My dad went to small rural schools. I went to elementary in a county school, then to junior high and high school in city school when schools were just starting to get consolidated (over 1,000 students).
Schools today are like the massive federal prisons: huge numbers of people crowded together; you survive by joining cliques (gangs) which require conforming to the standards of the clique.
The oddballs and outsiders get marginalized, under siege, oppressed. Those having trouble coping get labelled and fed sedatives which doesn't solve the problems they're having trouble coping with, which is often bullying by cliques.
Gun control is not going to address the causes of these outbursts.

You have present us a very true and sad reality of the actual events in the majority of our mega schools.
 
My youngest son is 12, and three things jump out at me based on what I see in my neighborhood and school district:
  1. Families where we live are an absolute mess. The divorce rate is through the roof, with mom and dad putting their needs and relationships with boyfriends/girlfriends first while the kids bear the brunt of the divorce. I'm not making judgements as I'm divorced, but my ex and I reached an agreement that I'll hold off dating until my youngest is older and her boyfriend has very little contact with my son. It's not a perfect solution, but we shifted to weight of the divorce to our shoulders and minimized it for our sons.
  2. It's rare to see kids playing outside. Their spare time is spent playing video games, and the end result is they don't learn how to deal with other kids in a social setting.
  3. A zero tolerance policy for fights at school regardless of the reason. I am not saying that kids should be allowed to fight at school, only that schools need to use common sense when dealing with those situations. My 12 year old is a big strong kid whose instinct is to protect kids who can't protect themselves. Last year he took another student under his wing who was being bullied to the point where that student ran out of a classroom screaming, crying and slamming his locker. The school did nothing to stop the bullying, with much of it happening in front of one teacher in particular. They did make it clear that a student who hit a bully would be the one subject to disciplinary action. When a student is forced to endure bullying with no outlet, that pressure is going to release itself in an unhealthy manner. Again, I'm not saying that the school should condone fighting, only that they understand that sometimes a bully has a couple of punches thrown his way coming. We're in the process of changing schools this year, as I won't subject my son to that nonsense.
This is a complex issue with other root causes, but blaming guns when too many parents and school policies are making a mess of out kids is not the solution.
 
TomJ
Besides kids mature in an environment of violence (games) far from real life and human connection, being said that they can not adjust to rules, works or study time.
That is one of the reasons take them late to go college, they don't know what to do.
Because the type of country we have, large populations and in larges areas we need to slowly move small schools.
Question is politicians will use the money to change that.
I don't think so, It is cheaper using banners at door schools saying "No Bulling here"
 
I decided a long time ago I couldn't change society or the mindset of our lawmakers. But having two young sons I settled for what I could do for MY sons. Here's what I did;

1) Introduced them to firearms and showed them how to safely use firearms. They were taught to immediately leave the area if one of their friends pulled one out to play with.

2) Took them out and from a safe distance to prevent hearing damage I fired several rounds from various guns then set of fireworks so they could hear the difference. Then we discussed the likelihood of it being fireworks if they heard "fireworks" at school, in the grocery store, etc.

3) Told them in no uncertain terms that if they heard gunshots in the immediate vicinity while at school to leave campus immediately. If the school tried to discipline them for that I would defend them and if I lost the argument I would sit next to them during detention.

4) I told them (and we discussed this often) to tackle the shooter if there was a shooter within 10 feet of them. I taught them to be proactive rather than crouching down waiting to die.

5) We discussed the difference between cover and concealment.

6) As they grew older and had more experience around firearms we discussed listening for cues the shooter was reloading and use those precious seconds to their advantage, be it fleeing or fighting.

Those are concepts I could instill in my kids. Thankfully they both are out of school and never had to use those lessons.
 
I decided a long time ago I couldn't change society or the mindset of our lawmakers. But having two young sons I settled for what I could do for MY sons. Here's what I did;

1) Introduced them to firearms and showed them how to safely use firearms. They were taught to immediately leave the area if one of their friends pulled one out to play with.

2) Took them out and from a safe distance to prevent hearing damage I fired several rounds from various guns then set of fireworks so they could hear the difference. Then we discussed the likelihood of it being fireworks if they heard "fireworks" at school, in the grocery store, etc.

3) Told them in no uncertain terms that if they heard gunshots in the immediate vicinity while at school to leave campus immediately. If the school tried to discipline them for that I would defend them and if I lost the argument I would sit next to them during detention.

4) I told them (and we discussed this often) to tackle the shooter if there was a shooter within 10 feet of them. I taught them to be proactive rather than crouching down waiting to die.

5) We discussed the difference between cover and concealment.

6) As they grew older and had more experience around firearms we discussed listening for cues the shooter was reloading
and use those precious seconds to their advantage, be it fleeing or fighting.

Those are concepts I could instill in my kids. Thankfully they both are out of school and never had to use those lessons.

Very interesting post, that will need kids with mature minds and solid foundations, you might one or two kids per 50 students class.
 
Personally, I believe the massive use of psychotropic drugs to combat "ADHD" (which most kids don't have) has led to a huge increase oin kids with mental issues ..IIRC, every kid involved in a mass school shooting was on those drugs at one time or another. I believe there is a direct correlation, especially combined with isolation playing games, etc. JMO, YMMV
I respectfully disagree with prescription drugs being the cause. My brother has PTSD and has been prescribed with medication similar to "ADHD" treatment, they settled on Xanax. After years of proper doses and getting back to the real world, he no longer needs meds. They are a crutch for sure, but they have thier place. The correlation is evident though, mental illness.

Its easy to point fingers at pills, drugs, alcohol, you name it. But they've been around a very very long time. Before guns. Even back when you could bring your rifle to school and keep it in your locker. Im 29 and have a 9 year old son and even I, among all the millenialls, believe the difference today is parenting. A spanking is borderline criminal now. Everyone sits and stares at thier screens all day. Parents don't do thier part then they wonder why thier kid lashed out. "Well, it wasn't my fault, must be video games and relaxed gun laws". Nope. Take responsibility for not knowing what's going on in your child's world.
 
MN Fats, while I'm glad your brother is fine, and was helped -- and I'm sure many people are helped by whatever drugs they take for their particular problem -- a single case doesn't extrapolate out to every case.
And not every case of a shooting spree maybe due to teenage brain on prescription drug, either. But it does seem many are.

IMHO, this problem needs a lot more study, and I don't see this happening now.
 
The correlation is evident though, mental illness.

We need to be really careful with this one because I sense it will probably come back to bite us from behind. Both sides of the gun debate are making this their new go-to talking point. But the supporting evidence isn't quite there.

link - lot's of reading if you bother to chase the source material, but I think it's well worth anybody's time
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4318286/

Here's a blurb:

Yet surprisingly little population-level evidence supports the notion that individuals diagnosed with mental illness are more likely than anyone else to commit gun crimes. According to Appelbaum, less than 3% to 5% of US crimes involve people with mental illness, and the percentages of crimes that involve guns are lower than the national average for persons not diagnosed with mental illness. Databases that track gun homicides, such as the National Center for Health Statistics, similarly show that fewer than 5% of the 120 000 gun-related killings in the United States between 2001 and 2010 were perpetrated by people diagnosed with mental illness.
 
Maybe instead of blaming violence in video games/media, lack of religion , missing parents, and/or ADHD medicine. Like anti-gunners do with guns, countless people deal with this stuff and partake in violent media; and they don’t go crazy. So maybe we should look at how these guys were mentally ill and/or hold radical political views. There is a trend there and can help to be an actually warning signs. Note that the new moral panic is shootings; as a result the media over blows it.
 
Last edited:
Paddlings in school might reduce mass shootings. It used to important for school to teach kids that there are consequences for their actions. I don't know if they really teach that anymore.
 
I see a lot of speculation in this thread. Speculation is fine. Your opinions are valid, but many of them regarding medicinal use of drugs, family structure stability, and video games are statistically and factually incorrect according to many studies.

There is a break in our society. I agree. Something is wrong, but playing violent video games isn't a primary, secondary, or tertiary cause. Remember the devil music scare of the 1980s? Rap music turning kids into dangerous criminals of the 1990s? Hell, back in the 1950s and early 60s recreational pot supposedly turned you into a psychotic bloodthirsty rapist if you believe Refer Madness.

Some of you are taking anecdotal evidence as universal causation, shoehorning this situation to fit your own societal views of what "ought to be". I don't have an answer. No one has THE answer. If there was one I like to think we would have done it. Then again maybe I'm giving society too much credit. I think a fair number of people are entrenched on both sides. There will always be the extremes that think a child should have a spiritual text strapped to his left and rifle lashed to his right just as some will want all children bubble wrapped and allow them nothing sharper than a spork until they are 25.

I think what sickens me the most is that both sides are digging in their heels....again. No one will drill down to finding the cause, find the common variable that can figure this issue out. Nope. "Ban these weapons of war!" "It's the lack of fathers and the video games!". They all suck.

30 people are dead...again. Children are laying cold on a steel slab being prepped to go in the ground. Children. Kids. People who will never be. Yet still, we dig in. We fold our arms at articles because of the information comes from a source we are told is always bad (left and right leaning). We do nothing. It will happen again. More babies are going to get gunned down over a problem no one is addressing in a rational way...again.

I do find some of the statistical gymnastics some are willing to throw out there apauling. As a parent, you can kindly take the statistical probably of all the ways my kid can die besides through gun violence and shove it. Not place it tenderly and kindly. Shove. It. Don't give me how infinitesimally small of a chance it is to happen then strap on a duty size 9mm and pack 4 extra mags..."just in case". Do not make my kid or any kid a statistic to support your hard line in the sand where you feel lile planting your head. Conversely, I want no one on the far left to make sure we overblow the statistical chances of this happening so that it stokes irrational fear so that everyone is so damn anxious that they can't function. Society is broken in some ways. Gun violence is a sever symptom of the disease. Just getting rid of guns won't stop it, but I think talking about how society can use our great technological advancements to maybe make sure it's just a touch more difficult for people who aren't in the right state of mind to get guns and armor and accessories that can do a lot of damage. I don't know what the fair answer is to that. Where is a fundamental right trumped by what society finds is for the greater good?

My point is that everyone here can speculate into a near-echo chamber where pretty much everyone agrees and pats you on the back for being so smart and so right and for having the bravery to say the things they already believe. Or we can start asking the hard questions. I am aiming this at both sides. No one wants to seem to want to try anything short of throwing barbed spears at the other tribe.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top