indy1919a4
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1940 England was in bad shape for small arms, Lots had been left in France. Appeals like this were posted for Americans to send guns & binoculars to England..
An appeal to send England Guns & Binoculars to Stop Hitler
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Sistema1927
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And then most of them were dumped into the sea after the war.
Rembrandt
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Gotta wonder how many collectible Colts and Winchesters were sent that never saw combat use, ending up in getting destroyed when Brits had to turn in their guns. "Lend Lease" program should have had a return to sender clause.
Note the small print at the bottom of the flyer..."Insurance on this equipment while in our care, is a donation" Who is the beneficiary on the Insurance?
Note the small print at the bottom of the flyer..."Insurance on this equipment while in our care, is a donation" Who is the beneficiary on the Insurance?
Do you happen to know who bankrolled Hitler so he could stay in power and arm German military for war?
Hypnogator
Member
That has always disgusted me. "Pleeeeeze, American Barbarians, pleeeeeze send us your guns or Mr. Hitler is going to come over here and make us all speak German." Then, after the war, the guns were all rounded up, taken out to sea and dumped, because, you know, we can't let the peasants actually have weapons they don't need. 
george29
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No sir, most of them were dumped in the sea prior to WWII which is why they needed help. After WWII it took them a few decades to make the same mistake.
george29
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The Bankers were all for him until he created the Reichsmark. Interesting fact, Matilda Shukelgruber and Lionel Nathan Rothschild had a child out of wedlock together named Alois Shukelgruber. Alois married Clara Folst, and the rest is history.
If we keep this up it's going to get locked. Probably will, it's not really gun related but political in nature.
george29
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Dad's Army trained with shovels, pitchforks and brooms. WWII made a select few a lot of money with the Lend-Lease program.
I met a woman who was a little German girl in 1945, starvation, rape, poverty, prostitution, illness.
I think its time people actually educated themselves on history and not just the history we were taught (indoctrinated). I just watched "Das Boot" on Hulu in German with subtitles, it is eye opening as is "Sink the Bismark." After watching "Sink the Bismark" do a little research and understand how Hollywood purposely mischaracterizes the Germans. I'm not a fan of Nazi propaganda but this doesn't mean I won't research the truth.
I really like the Brits but cannot fathom how fast they readily disarm themselves. Oh well.
I met a woman who was a little German girl in 1945, starvation, rape, poverty, prostitution, illness.
I think its time people actually educated themselves on history and not just the history we were taught (indoctrinated). I just watched "Das Boot" on Hulu in German with subtitles, it is eye opening as is "Sink the Bismark." After watching "Sink the Bismark" do a little research and understand how Hollywood purposely mischaracterizes the Germans. I'm not a fan of Nazi propaganda but this doesn't mean I won't research the truth.
I really like the Brits but cannot fathom how fast they readily disarm themselves. Oh well.
lemaymiami
Member
In 1940... the Brits were hanging on - just barely, and the threat of an invasion was a very real proposition so they were doing everything they could think of to resist.... Remember as well that the first year of the war was nothing but defeat after defeat for them everywhere around the world and although there were many sympathizers over here our country's policy was pretty much to keep out of it (while our president then was doing everything possible to prepare us for war...).
Yes, it's ironic that the same appeal for any weapons for "Dad's Army" was not only no longer necessary once Uncle Sugar joined in but would simply add to all the weapons the Brits would later destroy....
I've spoken to a few Brits I've known (my last marriage, all those years ago, was in London...) about the differences between our laws and theirs regarding firearms and they're very serious about controlling the private ownership of firearms (yes it's allowed but you must have a permit, belong to a "sporting group" , and that permit has to be signed off on by your local constable... Cause the slightest problem and that permit is revoked...). Each year your local constable has to come to your residence and physically inspect your weapon's security arrangements, etc. and you will co-operate or lose that permit to own a firearm....
Most folks here have no idea how fortunate they are to live under our constitution and its protections....
Yes, it's ironic that the same appeal for any weapons for "Dad's Army" was not only no longer necessary once Uncle Sugar joined in but would simply add to all the weapons the Brits would later destroy....
I've spoken to a few Brits I've known (my last marriage, all those years ago, was in London...) about the differences between our laws and theirs regarding firearms and they're very serious about controlling the private ownership of firearms (yes it's allowed but you must have a permit, belong to a "sporting group" , and that permit has to be signed off on by your local constable... Cause the slightest problem and that permit is revoked...). Each year your local constable has to come to your residence and physically inspect your weapon's security arrangements, etc. and you will co-operate or lose that permit to own a firearm....
Most folks here have no idea how fortunate they are to live under our constitution and its protections....
Flintshooter
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Many many years ago, Muzzle Blasts, the membership magazine of the National Muzzleloading Rifle Association, had an article about a handgun that had belonged to some famous figure of the old west being found in England. I don’t remember too much about it but since it was Muzzle Blasts it would just about had to have been a cap and ball revolver. At any extent, it was determined that it had been sent there as part of a shipment of guns for defense during WWII.
In a related area, my dad’s combat missions were spent flying low level at night over the continent in a B-24 dropping arms and ammo to resistance fighters in France and Belgium because they were a little on the gun poor side as well.
In a related area, my dad’s combat missions were spent flying low level at night over the continent in a B-24 dropping arms and ammo to resistance fighters in France and Belgium because they were a little on the gun poor side as well.
Sistema1927
Member
Did your Dad fly with the "Carpetbaggers"? So did my Father-in-Law. I actually have several of his mission reports, they can be found on the internet.
The S.S. Vasconia sailed from London for New York City in October 1947 with 144 crates of arms being returned to the American Committee, via the British Consul in New York, Sir Francis Evans. The consignment weighed 14 tons and 4.5 cwt.
Some extracts from letters received from donors were included in a file which I discovered in the Public Records Office.
“I am delighted to receive back in good condition the Remington rifle which I contributed some years ago in response to the appeal from England. As a matter of fact I had not supposed that I would see this rifle again.” – donor in Cleveland OH.
“This morning the Express Company returned the Krag rifle that I contributed to you in 1940. It is in perfect condition and when I replace it in my gun cabinet I will do so with gratification of the use to which it was dedicated.” – donor in San Francisco CA.
The American Committee reported that in a number of cases, their attempts to ship to ship the arms back to the donor had resulted in returned deliveries. Presumably the donors had died, or moved leaving no forwarding address. They decided to dispose of these arms locally and in their accounting figures the Committee reported that 36 cases of rifles and shotguns were sold to Francis Bannerman for $986, which suggests that they were not worth much. Sale of pistols and revolvers to J.F.Galef Inc. of New York City yielded $6149, suggesting that either a good many more handguns were disposed of, or that they were worth more.
There remained two crates, #145 and #146, that, for some reason, were not included in the original shipment. I have the manifests of these, which give some idea of the quantities in a crate, and the often incomplete details of the donor’s name and address. The question arose of whether these should be shipped back separately.
Charles Suydam Cutting of the American Committee, while admitting that the arms already received were a ‘small percentage of the total sent abroad’ suggested that the costs of doing so would be disproportionate (the American Committee had already paid the original consignment’s shipping charges) and that these arms should be sold locally and the proceeds given to a veteran’s organisation or a youth cadet organisation.
A civil servant minuted “The difficulties involved in the return of these weapons is clear from the pathetically incomplete list of names and addresses attached to the N.Y. [consul’s] letter.”
One of the staff at the Consulate wrote:
“The Consul-General and I agree that it would be a complete waste of effort to go through all the process again of returning these last few weapons, particularly since we confirmed that a large number of those who lent weapons to the Committee for the Defense of British Homes did not expect them back in the first place, and certainly not now that the so-called final shipment has been received and despatched. It is also extremely difficult to dispose of pistols and revolvers since State laws prevent them being sent through the post or through the railway express without all sorts of permits and permissions, and I notice that the majority of weapons still at Weedon are either pistols or revolvers.”
The main file dealing with the return shipment remains to be found (if it still exists).
There is also another file dealing with a late enquiry on the subject in 1955.
Some extracts from letters received from donors were included in a file which I discovered in the Public Records Office.
“I am delighted to receive back in good condition the Remington rifle which I contributed some years ago in response to the appeal from England. As a matter of fact I had not supposed that I would see this rifle again.” – donor in Cleveland OH.
“This morning the Express Company returned the Krag rifle that I contributed to you in 1940. It is in perfect condition and when I replace it in my gun cabinet I will do so with gratification of the use to which it was dedicated.” – donor in San Francisco CA.
The American Committee reported that in a number of cases, their attempts to ship to ship the arms back to the donor had resulted in returned deliveries. Presumably the donors had died, or moved leaving no forwarding address. They decided to dispose of these arms locally and in their accounting figures the Committee reported that 36 cases of rifles and shotguns were sold to Francis Bannerman for $986, which suggests that they were not worth much. Sale of pistols and revolvers to J.F.Galef Inc. of New York City yielded $6149, suggesting that either a good many more handguns were disposed of, or that they were worth more.
There remained two crates, #145 and #146, that, for some reason, were not included in the original shipment. I have the manifests of these, which give some idea of the quantities in a crate, and the often incomplete details of the donor’s name and address. The question arose of whether these should be shipped back separately.
Charles Suydam Cutting of the American Committee, while admitting that the arms already received were a ‘small percentage of the total sent abroad’ suggested that the costs of doing so would be disproportionate (the American Committee had already paid the original consignment’s shipping charges) and that these arms should be sold locally and the proceeds given to a veteran’s organisation or a youth cadet organisation.
A civil servant minuted “The difficulties involved in the return of these weapons is clear from the pathetically incomplete list of names and addresses attached to the N.Y. [consul’s] letter.”
One of the staff at the Consulate wrote:
“The Consul-General and I agree that it would be a complete waste of effort to go through all the process again of returning these last few weapons, particularly since we confirmed that a large number of those who lent weapons to the Committee for the Defense of British Homes did not expect them back in the first place, and certainly not now that the so-called final shipment has been received and despatched. It is also extremely difficult to dispose of pistols and revolvers since State laws prevent them being sent through the post or through the railway express without all sorts of permits and permissions, and I notice that the majority of weapons still at Weedon are either pistols or revolvers.”
The main file dealing with the return shipment remains to be found (if it still exists).
There is also another file dealing with a late enquiry on the subject in 1955.
Flintshooter
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Yes, 850/857 BS Darby crew.
Tom Ensminger who has the Carpetbaggers Photographic Archives page used to live about four miles from the National Museum of the United States Air Force. I had a box full of dad’s old orders from Davis-Monthan, Mountain Home, Eye, and Harrington that filled in a few missing pieces. Also several of the propaganda leaflets that were distributed during the missions and a bunch of other stuff. He spent weeks scanning all of it and several images on the website are credited to the Robert Johnson collection.
Tom sent me scans of most of dad’s mission reports, not microfilm copies, but the actual original copies.
Sistema1927
Member
Neat, maybe they had a beer together at a local pub.
Father-in-Law flew with the Mead crew. In the picture below he is bottom right.
Father-in-Law flew with the Mead crew. In the picture below he is bottom right.
Flintshooter
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At the museum at Wright-Pat there is a replica of a typical WWII era control tower used by the 8th and 9th Air Forces. One wall features a brick from the control tower at each of the bases used by US forces. Here is the one for Harrington.
Attachments
What do you think they are doing here?
Prohibited persons, red flag laws, storage requirements that only have been reduced in scope as a result of Heller.
A permit process in places that gives law enforcement discretion whether to sign off on a permit to do various things.
Minimum costs, not only in raw dollars but in ammunition requirements for training, or how many random days must be taken off from work to attend training which certain demographics have more felxibility to do. Which reduce how many people from certain classes get those firearms (and the poorer people do tend to have more problems with firearms, so it does effectively reduce crime by curtailing the civil rights based on class.) As well as a legal system that gives a much fairer treatment to people that can afford it, whether it is challenging a red flag prohibition, how a discretionary crime is charged that could impact rights like firearm ownership, etc etc
We are moving towards that same model, and some states are further along.
DerMerchant
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Shukulgruber?
Shekel grubber?
george29
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