Amazingly, USA Today has an article about required information not getting into the NICS database

Interesting and fairly eye-opening read. We often preach to the choir around here, but it's nice to see the media acknowledging that the current system could be shored up before we start adding a bunch of new parts.

Those laws can work, said David Chipman, a former agent with the Bureau Alcohol Tobacco Firearms & Explosives, provided guns are sold only through federally licensed dealers.

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This is unnerving to me. We know that UBC is ineffective without registration, which is horrifying to us, but sounds reasonable to fence-sitters and certainly antis. We need to work on strategies to win over the folks in the middle. While there's a lot of truth to the slippery slope argument, it's not proving to be convincing outside of our own circle of gun owners.

As in the other thread: I disagree. UBC will be quite effective with complete info about individuals, and enough enforcement (and educating, shaming etc) to keep the black market down.

Hard parts include that we don't have a federal police force. Hard for the feds (okay: so far impossible) to get everyone to deliver the same reports in a timely manner. How many Americans murdered last year? It's An Estimate! A huge number of counties report nothing at all to the feds when they ask for the data to track crime.

This gets to a MUCH bigger civil rights/privacy issue, and expect the phrase Unfunded Mandate to pop up again, but if we believe in even the most basic level of keeping guns out of terrorists hands, the dangerously mentally ill, etc. we simply have to know who is who, and have to have the info to do those checks.

shoobe01 said:

As in the other thread: I disagree. UBC will be quite effective with complete info about individuals, and enough enforcement (and educating, shaming etc) to keep the black market down.

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I mostly agree with you, but how much more enforcement, education, and shaming should we apply to illegal drugs to keep that black market down?

Down, not gone. Agree 100% that it will continue to exist. Unless the space aliens come down and magically satellite track all guns, there will be a black market. No paper will solve this. I agree. And largely discussing how it could work without being a ban, etc.

shoobe I agree with you.

old lady new shooter said:

Very happy to see a MSM outlet actually pointing this out.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...unheeded-before-previous-killings/1934303001/

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I certainly do not want people that should not have guns to be carrying them.

However, When we are talking about adding people to NICS we are saying that those folks should not be allowed to have a gun. These decisions are made by the executive branch.

This means abrogating their 2A rights.

IMHO this should be a judicial branch decision and subject to due process. This means that the Judicial branch must be involved as a check and balance against the executive branch.

I though ,all together, we opposed Red Flag laws?

old lady new shooter said:

or where local authorities fail to follow up on tips, like the case of the guy who shot up the high school in Broward County.

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Red Flag Laws: Much of this resistance has to do with what might happen. Frankly, all this talk about Red Flag laws is contradictory. Yes we do need Red Flag laws. We cannot have Red Flag laws because somebody might be falsely accused. Much this fear based stuff comes from signals from Cloud Cuckoo land. Nothing is on the ground on these laws.

Is there something in place to deal with these armed people who are a risk to themselves and others? What is the relevant authority. By what means do these the relevant authorities deal with this situation. Red Flag laws include judicial review.

old lady new shooter said:

I'm not sure where you're coming from here, you seem to be talking about red flag laws? I agree that red flag laws present a due process issue, because a person could be maliciously accused. At a minimum there needs to be a due process step incorporated.

But my point in posting the article was about people who are already legally prohibited but where the relevant reporting authority fails to report, for example the guy who shot up the church in Texas, or where local authorities fail to follow up on tips, like the case of the guy who shot up the high school in Broward County.

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I was referring to people on the no-fly list for example added to NICS. I think that if you're on NICS it should be because you've committed a crime and have been judged, a judge has issued a restraining order, a judge has ordered a mental evaluation, etc.

It should not be because someone in the executive branch, or even worse a computer in the executive branch puts you on a different list and that list is used in NICS.

I have deleted several posts that did not contribute anything informative. Please discuss the topic. Just complaining about the government in general - so what?

No where in the US Constitution have I read where citizens are guaranteed a hazard free existence.
Life is hard. Sometimes bad things happen to good people.

Nobody, not even Uncle Sam can guarantee your/my/our safety.

Add to that : The system has already demonstrated that numerous individuals with the traits/convictions/qualities/impairments necessary to deny them the access to purchase a firearm, has failed miserably. Until the current system can be accurately and completely operational, it is, IMHO, futile to institute another system destined to fail in the same, grand manner. I.E. allow prohibited persons access to firearms through legal means.

There is a distrinct problem in that, actually doing a per person background check on a per instance basis is incredibly costly. With typical bureaucratic inertia, you are looking at 3-5 mandays per check. At around $250-500 per manday in cost.
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/nics_firearm_checks_-_month_year.pdf/view
There were 2 million NICS checks in July.
Lets say that the amount of paperwork and a 2-4 week wait really suppress buyers, to 1 per 100, that's 20,000 Background Investigations. At 3 days each, that's 60,000 mandays (that's 1000 investigators to get it done in 10 working days) and, oh, $15 million in expense (before paperwork, filing, service fees, etc.) In one Month. At 1/100 the present purchasing volume. So, there's simply no way that is affordable in a sensible universe.

Which is why most of the "UBC" bills out there just assume all sales can be dumped on NICS. Which would require some process to either qualify people to have access to NICS, or set up a support staff to field all the F2F contact calls.

And that really puts into perspective the factoid about how the NICS records could be as little as 49% and maybe as much as 72% complete, of known Prohibited Persons.

And, of course, this is after we leap over the logical hurdle of law-abiding criminals.

CapnMac said:

And that really puts into perspective the factoid about how the NICS records could be as little as 49% and maybe as much as 72% complete, of known Prohibited Persons.

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With the millions of firearms in American how many do you think are changing hands right now? It would be a good thing to have uniform reporting from state to state and from government services for what we already have. There are positive aspects of strengthening the system. The UBS will not work.

Addendum: I know personally of an individual who had to deal with a misdemeanor from 1971 several years ago. The person was standing in the LGS when his sale was put on hold for 30 days. He got a sarcastic response from a clerk at the TBI where they did the checks. This guy was standing in the LGS with a newly renewed carry permit. He called the city where all this happened as spoke to a cop who sounded as if he had done nothing lately. I mean nothing. This guy made Barney Fife look good. Luckily, friend was able to get the court records plus finger prints to clear up the mess If those court records were not available what do you think would have happened to my friend. Wonder how many others had to jump through the hoops?

CapnMac said:

And, of course, this is after we leap over the logical hurdle of law-abiding criminals.

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Good point...

Most states already have a process in place to do this with a problem person. In Maine one can be Blue Papered for a psychiatric hold and have firearms or whatever removed along with other restrictions for drugs, booz etc when released back into the public. There is no need for a specific rule/law pertaining to firearms restrictions alone. This is just another layer of gun control nonsense IMHO.

Mowgli Terry said:

Addendum: I know personally of an individual who had to deal with a misdemeanor from 1971 several years ago. The person was standing in the LGS when his sale was put on hold for 30 days. He got a sarcastic response from a clerk at the TBI where they did the checks. This guy was standing in the LGS with a newly renewed carry permit. He called the city where all this happened as spoke to a cop who sounded as if he had done nothing lately. I mean nothing. This guy made Barney Fife look good. Luckily, friend was able to get the court records plus finger prints to clear up the mess If those court records were not available what do you think would have happened to my friend. Wonder how many others had to jump through the hoops?

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There are tons of areas that need to be fixed. Which means throwing added bureaucracy of UBC or Red flag laws on top will just make the issue worse. You have to fix the crumbling foundation of a house before you add a second or third floor. I was arrested a few years back on a felony charge. The charge was dropped and I spent less than 1 day incarcerated. Occasionally I have to jump through the hoop when renewing my carry permit or buying a firearm. The arrest shows up in NICS, but there is no conviction. When buying something new it might get a delay, and at some big box stores that might as well be a denial. In essence my rights are being infringed upon over a minor prosecutor error from years ago, and I would not want that nonsense on anyone else with the addition of UBC or red flag laws.