Can you legally buy handguns at tag sales in some states?

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He doesn’t have to hand it to me, but he does have to show me one that was issued by KY. I’m perfectly happy if he holds his thumb over the address, but I want to see that he’s the same person on the license photo. I live pretty close to Cincinnati and have had more than one Ohio resident who seemingly doesn’t know the law try to buy a gun from an Armslist ad. I have the gut feeling that one of them was either a reporter fishing for a story or a LEO fishing for an arrest based on how hard he tried to convince me it would be OK.


I also ask to see a DL or CHL. Not copy it, just make a good faith attempt to verify age and residency. I also state that CHL holders are preferred. This sends a message that I fully expect the buyer to be armed so suspect that I am too. I can’t remember the last time I sold a gun on Armslist a non-CHL holder. It’s not a perfect plan, but I feel that it helps.
 
I was unclear. I wasn’t referring to private gun sales with my definition, but to true loopholes like obscure tax code stuff and things like that. Private gun sales aren’t loopholes-they fit the “ legal but we don’t like it” definition. . . .
Fair enough. :thumbup:

. . . . Individual to individual requires no paperwork, but according to an ATF agent I talked to, it is the responsibility of the seller to make sure the buyer is legal to own a gun as far as age and being a resident of the state if it is a handgun sale....
Just to be clear, though, I have quoted federal law above. It's a "know or have reason to know" test. Individual ATF agents may want private sellers to do things ("....highly recommended the seller get a bill of sale signed and a copy or at least a driver license number...."), but they really can't require it.

....It is also highly recommended the seller get a bill of sale signed and a copy or at least a driver license number just to cya....
That particular agent may have said it's "highly recommended," but I suspect that the responses here will indicate that it's not a universal recommendation. As for my practices (on the rare occasion that I buy and sell guns):
--> As a buyer, the seller may see my DL or my CHCL. The seller may not take a picture, or write down the license or address. Attempting to do so will void the sale.
--> As a seller, I'll need to see a DL or (even better) a CHCL. I will not attempt to take a picture or write down the address. I always tells prospective buyers this before we ever meet. If that's a deal-breaker for them, I don't want to waste their time or mine.
 
Okay, lots of information and opinions in this thread.

To add to the conversation, I was at my lake home in Wisconsin and was at a garage sale.

Had a nice (over-priced) used pistol for sale. I have a Minnesota CC permit, Wisconsin reciprocates, could I have purchased it without FFL?
 
Okay, lots of information and opinions in this thread.

To add to the conversation, I was at my lake home in Wisconsin and was at a garage sale.

Had a nice (over-priced) used pistol for sale. I have a Minnesota CC permit, Wisconsin reciprocates, could I have purchased it without FFL?
I think (with the admission that my knowledge is a little weak here) that it's a question of whether you'd established dual residency. Anybody who knows more than I should feel free to chime in and correct me.
 
Okay, lots of information and opinions in this thread.

To add to the conversation, I was at my lake home in Wisconsin and was at a garage sale.

Had a nice (over-priced) used pistol for sale. I have a Minnesota CC permit, Wisconsin reciprocates, could I have purchased it without FFL?
Yes (at least under federal law, I don’t know Wisconsin law). If you were living at your lake home in Wisconsin at the time you did a private transfer in Wisconsin, that’s legal under federal law.

I think (with the admission that my knowledge is a little weak here) that it's a question of whether you'd established dual residency. Anybody who knows more than I should feel free to chime in and correct me.
To meet the definition of residency for the purpose of buying firearms under federal law, you simply need to be living in the state at that time. If you have multiple residences in multiple states, then you’re a resident of the state where you’re living at the time.

Residency is discussed in detail in ATF Ruling 2010-6, and here’s an excerpt about dual residency:

“ATF has previously addressed the eligibility of individuals to acquire firearms who maintain residences in more than one State. Federal regulations at 27 CFR 478.11 (definition of State of Residence), Example 2, clarify that a U.S. citizen with homes in two States may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a firearm in that State.”

The main issue with dual residency in different states is that a gun buyer can sometimes have a hard time providing the necessary government documentation to prove residency. But that’s not an issue for a private transfer since those documents don’t establish residency, they simply prove it. And there’s no requirement to prove residency during a private transfer (at least under federal law; state laws may vary).
 
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The main issue with dual residency in different states is that a gun buyer can sometimes have a hard time providing the necessary government documentation to prove residency. But that’s not an issue for a private transfer since those documents don’t establish residency, they simply prove it. And there’s no requirement to prove residency during a private transfer (at least under federal law; state laws may vary).

Typically, a utility bill, tax bill or similar in your name should suffice in that regard
 
As long as it’s from a government entity. Keep in mind that some utility companies are private, so in that case a utility bill wouldn’t work.
Correct. Where I live, ALL my utilities are run by my city. Where my mom lived in SC, the water was county which is why I also said a tax bill (as in property tax)
 
Not gun related but a good example of how the term loophole is used to mean “legal but I don’t like it”: https://amp.kentucky.com/news/local/education/article233993192.html?__twitter_impression=true

Law says you must display "in god we trust" in schools. School snubs lawmakers by displaying a dollar bill instead of what lawmakers wanted to be a prominent display. Letter of law met, intent evaded.

Matches up with the Merriam-Webster definition of the word:
2: a means of escape
especially: an ambiguity or omission in the text through which the intent of a statute, contract, or obligation may be evaded

Congress did not intend for the Brady act to apply to private transfers. Can't evade the intent if there was no intent :p
 
All firearms laws are some variety of "Catch 22". Governments can do anything you cannot stop them from doing. It is easy to pass laws, difficult or next to impossible to get rid of them.

Strictly speaking, a "Catch-22" is "a problematic situation for which the only solution is denied by a circumstance inherent in the problem or by a rule."[13] For example, losing something is typically a conventional problem; to solve it, one looks for the lost item until one finds it. But if the thing lost is one's glasses, one cannot see to look for them — a Catch-22. The term "Catch-22" is also used more broadly to mean a tricky problem or a no-win or absurd situation.

The 2d Amendment says very clearly "the people" can own and carry firearms. It prohibits government, state and federal, from banning or restricting ownership and use.

Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Catch 22 comes in when government passes laws that violate the 2d Amendment. The National Firearms Act did not ban any firearms or accessories, it merely taxed them and banned the importation. When it was challenged, in 1938, the United States District Court for the Western District of Arkansas ruled the statute unconstitutional in United States v. Miller. The government's argument was that the short barreled shotgun was not a military-type weapon and thus not a "militia" weapon protected by the Second Amendment, from federal infringement. The District Court agreed with Miller's argument that the shotgun was legal under the Second Amendment.

The District Court ruling was overturned on a direct appeal to the United States Supreme Court (see United States v. Miller). No brief was filed on behalf of the defendants, and the defendants themselves did not appear before the Supreme Court. Miller himself had been murdered one month prior to the Supreme Court's decision. No evidence that such a firearm was "ordinary military equipment" had been presented at the trial court (apparently because the case had been thrown out—at the defendants' request—before evidence could be presented), although two Supreme Court justices at the time had been United States Army officers during World War I and may have had personal knowledge of the use of such weapons in combat. The Supreme Court indicated it could not take judicial notice of such a contention.

Mostly, courts brushed off 2d Amendment challenges, and when defendants try to take 2d Amendment cases to the SCOTUS it has not accepted them, at least until 2008, when the SCOTUS decided in DC v Heller that DC's ban on handguns violated the 2d Amendment. Heller was extended to the States in McDonald V Chicago.

SCOTUS has accepted a challenge to NYC's draconian firearms, and the Left is in such a panic that some senators are threatening to pack the court if the SCOTUS does not throw out the case. One can only hope that the justices show some backbone.
 
Post 86--well said!

That's exactly what it seems like to me--that we have the Second Amendment, but yet governments (Federal, State, and local) pass laws that are in direct violation of this. Seems like they make up the rules as they go along, and if you don't like it, tough!

I question the Constitutionality of requiring ANY paperwork when it comes to the purchase of ANY firearm, and banning certain types/classes of firearms. Never mind that it is probably not a good idea for you or your friends and neighbors to have a machine gun at home--independent of all that--not sure how, given the wording of the Second Amendment, that anything can be restricted. Again, independent of it being a good idea to not allow everyone in America the right to own these, I just don't understand the legality of all that.

EXCEPT, you do have a significant amount of paperwork and registration that is required for the ownership and operation of a common object owned by most individuals--the automobile. Never mind that it probably is a good idea to have a way to track them, with unique identifiers (VIN numbers and license plates)--regardless of all that, not sure how that could be required, but it is. If it is done with the automobile, then not surprising that firearms are likewise documented/registered, etc.
 
....That's exactly what it seems like to me--that we have the Second Amendment, but yet governments (Federal, State, and local) pass laws that are in direct violation of this. Seems like they make up the rules as they go along, and if you don't like it, tough!

I question the Constitutionality of requiring ANY paperwork when it comes to the purchase of ANY firearm, and banning certain types/classes of firearms....

This will be a bit of a digression, but a dose of reality wouldn't hurt. The reality is that this is the system the Founding Fathers put in place, and your opinion of what is or is not constitutional doesn't count.

The Founding Fathers assigned the job of deciding what the Constitution means and how it applies to the federal courts (Constitution of the United States, Article III, Sections 1 and 2):
Section 1.

The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish....
Section 2.

The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution,...​

The exercise of judicial power and the deciding of cases arising under the Constitution necessarily involves interpreting and applying the Constitution to the circumstances of the matter in controversy in order to decide the dispute. Many of the Founding Fathers were lawyers and well understood what the exercise of judicial power meant and entailed.

What our Constitution states and how it applies has been a matter for dispute almost as soon as the ink was dry. Hylton v. United States in 1796 appears to be the first major litigation involving a question of the interpretation and application of the Constitution. Then came Marbury v. Madison decided in 1803; and McCulloch v. Maryland was decided 10 years later, in 1813.

So, as the Founding Fathers provided in the Constitution, if there is disagreement about whether a law is constitutional, the matter is one within the province of the federal courts to decide. As the Supreme Court ruled back in 1803 (Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137, 2 L. Ed. 60, 1 Cranch 137 (1803), 1 Cranch at 177 -- 178):
...It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is. Those who apply the rule to particular cases, must of necessity expound and interpret that rule. If two laws conflict with each other, the courts must decide on the operation of each.....

And indeed, it is a general principle in the United States that courts give deference to legislative acts and presume statutes valid and enforceable, unless unconstitutionality is determined:

  1. As the Supreme Court said in Brown v. State of Maryland, 25 U.S. 419 (1827), at 437:
    ...It has been truly said, that the presumption is in favour of every legislative act, and that the whole burden of proof lies on him who denies its constitutionality...

  2. And much more recently in U.S. v Morrison, 529 U.S. 598 (2000), at 605:
    ......Due respect for the decisions of a coordinate branch of Government demands that we invalidate a congressional enactment only upon a plain showing that Congress has exceeded its constitutional bounds. See United States v. Lopez, 514 U.S., at 568, 577_578 (Kennedy, J., concurring); United States v. Harris, 106 U.S., at 635. With this presumption of constitutionality in mind, we turn to the question whether §13981 falls within Congress' power under Article I, §8, of the Constitution....

Holding on to cherished misconceptions about what the law is or how the law works doesn't help promote the RKBA. To deal effectively with reality we must first clearly understand it.

Of course in our system the people do have a say.

  • The Founding Fathers well understood how people do disagree and how politics works. They were active, mostly successfully, in the commercial and political world of the time. Almost all were very well educated. They were generally politically savvy. Many were members at various times of their home colonial assemblies or were otherwise active in local government or administration. They were solidly grounded in the real world and knew how to make things work in the real world. That is why they were able to bring our nation into being. Of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence, 25 were lawyers. Of the 55 framers of the Constitution, 32 were lawyers. And they left us a system in which we can influence what laws are enacted and how they are administered.

  • But we live in a pluralistic, political society, and not everyone thinks as you do. People have varying beliefs, values, needs, wants and fears. People have differing views on the proper role of government. So while you and those who share your views may use the tools the Constitution, our laws and our system give you to promote your vision of how things should be, others may and will be using those same tools to promote their visions.

  • The Constitution, our laws, and our system give you resources and remedies. You can associate with others who think as you do and exercise what political power that association gives you to influence legislation. You have the opportunity to try to join with enough other people to enable you to elect legislators and other public officials who you think will be more attuned to your interests. And others who believe differently have the same opportunities.

  • So if you want things to be different, by all means, get politically active and try to marshal sufficient political power to change things. But of course that doesn't guarantee that you will get your way. People who think that things should be different from the way you think things should be also have a say? If you don't believe that they do, you believe in tyranny -- as long as it's your tyranny.
 
Post #88, well written!

I did take the LSATs once, so that's as close as I got to a legal education, so I am far less knowledgeable about these things than you are.

My HUGE problem with society today is that a large segment of it is anti firearm/anti 2A, but what these folks fail to realize, and which the Founding Fathers did not, is that the firearm played a MAJOR, MAJOR role in the fight for American independence--and the ability to survive once arriving in the new world. Defense, obviously, which allowed for this country to even exist. Also the ability to hunt game, which would have been a necessity in the wilderness.

So, this segment of society fails to realize that without an armed citizenry, you might as well roll over an play dead. Can easily lead to defeat, and the creation of a government that does not value democracy.
 
Random thoughts related to all of the above:

It is legal to sell without going through a FFL here in GA as long as both buyer and seller are GA residents. I've sold/bought some guns at gunshows as well as through personal ads. I live pretty close to both the AL and TN state lines and it isn't uncommon for residents of those states to be at gun shows. I usually ask them to show me their DL just to confirm state of residence, and in some cases age.

The gun show loophole.

I've never attended a gun show in another state and I'd imagine it may well be much different in other places. Until recently private sales tables were uncommon. Virtually all of the tables were regular FFL dealers or people selling ammo and accessories. You always had a few people walking around with 1-3 firearms they were trying to sell/trade. I was often one of them. But in recent years I'd estimate that 1/3 of the tables are non-FFL folks selling firearms. That number may be more, or less in other states, but it is often those people that concern me. I have no issues with someone wanting to "thin the herd" and selling part of a collection at a gun show. But some of these guys are in fact firearms dealers operating without a FFL. They are at all of the shows, buying and selling on a regular basis. These are the ones that create the gun show loophole that makes us all look bad.

I don't know the answer. Perhaps the ATF should be checking out these guys and if they determine they are in fact dealing in firearms shut them down or require them to get a FFL.
 
...a large segment of it is anti firearm/anti 2A, but what these folks fail to realize, and which the Founding Fathers did not, is that the firearm played a MAJOR, MAJOR role in the fight for American independence--and the ability to survive once arriving in the new world. Defense, obviously, which allowed for this country to even exist. Also the ability to hunt game, which would have been a necessity in the wilderness.

So, this segment of society fails to realize that without an armed citizenry, you might as well roll over an play dead. Can easily lead to defeat, and the creation of a government that does not value democracy.

I think that's correct. But the real question is, "How do we change peoples' minds?" People believe what they believe. Just telling someone that what he believes is wrong isn't a particular effective way to convince him.

  • As has been discussed before, we're in a culture war. Younger urbanites just don't see guns or gun ownership as relevant to their lives. They're afraid of guns and people with guns; and, since guns aren't important to them personally, they're inclined to vote for folks who claim to be able to remove guns from society.

    Is it possible to convince a portion of such folks that guns can be relevant to their live? How?

  • As we become a more urban society gun owners are increasingly looked down upon as hicks or knuckle dragging Neanderthals.

    Much of today's anti-gun sentiment is a byproduct of the continuing urbanization of America. California, New York, Massachusetts, Illinois, etc., are strongly anti-gun in part because the bulk of the political power in those States is in a few major cities. The rural parts of those States are much more pro-gun or neutral. And in States like Washington and Oregon which generally have decent gun laws, the urban centers area still hot beds of anti-gun sentiment.

    People tend to look for support and validation from others who share their tastes and values; and they distinguish themselves, often in a denigrating manner, from those who do not. The city dweller likes to fancy himself sophisticated, socially liberal, well educated, urbane, fashionable, etc.; and he wants to associate with, and have his self image validated by, people he perceives are like him. And they set themselves apart from those they find different -- such as the type of person they believe usually owns guns.

    The there's the question of how to make a dent in urban anti-gun sentiments. Can we challenge those anti-gun sentiments by demonstrating that sophisticated, urbane perspectives on other things aren't inexorably intertwined with hating guns?

We're wandering off topic, so I don't want to see this go on too long. If folks want an in depth discussion another time and place (e. g., the General Discussion Forum) might be more suitable.
 
And in States like Washington and Oregon which generally have decent gun laws, the urban centers area still hot beds of anti-gun sentiment.

States which USED to have fairly decent gun laws.

Washington has long required registration handguns. Now they have UBC and extra requirements for buying "assault weapons" like the Ruger 10/22. Minor things like signing away your HIPPA rights.

Oregon also has UBC and is headed towards a Washington style regulation on "assault weapons".

Both states are trying extremely hard to out California California.
 
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