AR15 rivals worth checking out?

Even within the AR family, there's now a lot of divergence. I've been collecting AR's since 1968, and I've noticed that there has been an explosion of options in the last few years, so that some of the offerings now are hardly recognizable as classic AR's. I've made it a rule to more or less stick to the military configuration. Otherwise the choices are just overwhelming.

On a functional basis there really isn't much difference between the stuff you mentioned and the AR. They all function (if you get a good one), It's just that the AR is the American rifle, and it is easy to source guns and parts. The AR is the top dog here for good reason, it works and has the US military backing it up, with a lot of R&D and an industrial base.

It's hard to beat the AR in terms of cost, practicality, and overall effectiveness. What is driving, in part I believe, the increasing interest in .223/5.56 variants are the senseless and onerous regulations certain states are using to neuter these rifles.

In MA, if I want a collapsible or folding stock, we're talking about paying nearly $2k for a 25 year old (pre-1994 AWB) rifle, or lower receiver that costs nearly as much, just to get started. Throw in a reasonable optic, now you're getting closer to $3k. Obviously, deals can still be found, but this is by no means exaggerating the costs (this is a state where Gen 2-3 used Glocks are routinely sold for $600-$700)

This is why I went with a Tavor recently. They're definitely not cheap, but to get an AR to be anywhere close to what I wanted, it actually would have been more expensive. With the Tavor, there is no stock to pin, and it's as close to a free-state rifle as I'll probably get.

HPCadm17 said:

I went with a Ruger Mini-14 Ranch, mostly for the nostalgic appearance, it doesn't look mean & scary (sic), and that fact that it can still use detachable magazines here in CT (for now).

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Me too....I have a 581 series Mini 14 with wood stock /blued steel.
Sadly, I cannot buy an AR15 in Massachusetts anymore thanks to an Attorney General who banned them along with the AK47 rifles.

The Exile said:

Did the AR15 truly earn it's popularity by being the best of the best?

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Popularity? Nope. After the AWB ended in 2004, there was still a general perception of AR-15 rifles being "for military use" or otherwise scary. At that time, when people saw one at the range, they asked what seem like weird questions now: "Is that legal to own?" "Are you in the military?" etc. When a 2008 democratic president and congress made threats somewhere between registration and another ban of 30 round, magazine fed semi-autos, people responded with their wallets and made it the most popular rifle in the USA. It was similar to the mid 90's, when everyone got their first home computer with Windows 95. Questions - what's good, what's bad? What's mil spec? What is commerical? Full auto vs semi auto carriers. Parkerizing under the FSB, etc.

The aftermarket exploded, with every little piece of modularity was either CNC'd or injection molded into something new, improved, and a must have for every would be "operator."
Now it is strange to go to a typical shooting range and not see an AR-15. Literally, everybody has one... and they want to tell you about their parts list... or caliber other than 223... or optic... etc. I mean no disrespect to the OP or well meaning people just looking for information, but now, it feels like those who ask questions like "I'm interested in one of these AR-15's. What can you tell me about them?" remind me of the last person who wants a tribal tattoo around their bicep or the guy who still has a flip phone. Again, no disrespect, it's just that the market has advanced so much and literally they are everywhere, except localities that have in some way "neutered" them.

The Exile said:

Are there guns that aren't really available on the general market (SA80, G36, FAMAS, etc.) that might be able to dethrone the AR if there was consumer versions available?

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They tried, but failed. The best chance was with the "modern AR-180 designs" when the military was at least testing some of these types of rifles. These are gas piston, with recoil systems that do not require the buffer tube. Think Beretta ARX 100, Bushmaster ACR, HK G36, etc.
The big problem with these is that people got used to the AR-15's modularity. "What do you mean, I can't change the grip... or handguard... or mount a flashlight literally anywhere?" Add in high cost for the competitors. Then lack of sales, lack of aftermarket support, and lack of availability for most people.

If one of the AR-180 designs had been chosen by the military, this may be a different story.

But seriously, everyday, people can purchase a stripped lower from a gun store (or have it transferred), then purchase a parts kit online. It is possible to do all this and have a functioning rifle for $400 (or less). At that price point, you don't have "the best of the best," but it is hard to beat the value.

In .223/5.56mm I can't think of a rival. In 7.62x51mm a decent rival is the M1A. Fell bad for those living in states that are banned from having them, way things are going we all might be banned eventually.

You absolutely can not find a better rifle than the AR-15 at current prices. I’ve got ARs, SCARs, M1As, a Mini-14, and AK variants in the safe. The ARs and SCARs are the only ones that get shot on a regular basis. They are accurate, reliable and ergonomic. Mags are cheap. Ammo is cheap and of good quality. Parts and accessories are everywhere and can be had at low cost. It is the American rifle. Buy a couple and be glad.

marksman13 said:

You absolutely can not find a better rifle than the AR-15 at current prices. I’ve got ARs, SCARs, M1As, a Mini-14, and AK variants in the safe. The ARs and SCARs are the only ones that get shot on a regular basis. They are accurate, reliable and ergonomic. Mags are cheap. Ammo is cheap and of good quality. Parts and accessories are everywhere and can be had at low cost. It is the American rifle. Buy a couple and be glad.

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In terms of reliability and cheap ammo a AK from certain sources is also. Not as accurate as a AR , but fun also. Never tried a SCAR , prices are way high and just too box looking for me.

lionking said:

In terms of reliability and cheap ammo a AK from certain sources is also. Not as accurate as a AR , but fun also. Never tried a SCAR , prices are way high and just too box looking for me.

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Honestly doubt my AKs ever have another hundred rounds out through them. Reliability is good. Accuracy is mediocre. Ergonomics SUCK. Mounting optics is ridiculous compared to an AR or SCAR. They’ll hang around, but I just won’t shoot them much. Some people love them. I just bought them because Barack Obama was the president.

I’ve got 2 AR’s in 5.56, 2 in 6.8 SPC, 3 in 7.62x39, and 2 in 450 Bushmaster. They cover the spectrum of anything I can hunt or target shoot in my area. The 450’s are my favorite because I like the power!

Show me another rifle platform that provides that modularity and I’ll kiss your shorts. Haters are gonna hate....

The Exile said:

Did the AR15 truly earn it's popularity by being the best of the best?

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It was foisted on the military by bean counters who were looking at the bottom dollar. That said, it was improved continuously over 50+ years, (My issue M16A1 was as old as I was!) and is now a decent rifle (M16A4) and carbine (M4 variants). Best of the best is subjective and hard to answer.

The Exile said:

Is it just because it's so easy to customize and tune for yourself?

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That is definitely a reason for it's popularity.

The Exile said:

Are there guns that aren't really available on the general market (SA80, G36, FAMAS, etc.) that might be able to dethrone the AR if there was consumer versions available?

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There are commercial versions of the G36; the UMP is one example. I suspect there aren't commercial versions of the SA-80 because it was not that good. I certainly was unimpressed with the samples the British Artillery guys brought with them when training the 7th's Arty on the Light Gun. FAMAS....

<*(((>< said:

Like I said before, it is my belief currently there is no rival on the market today for semi auto 556, anyone who says otherwise more than likely has a personal bias against the platform. There are far too many pros to the AR platform that cannot be overlooked.

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That about sums it up.

The AR15/ M16 is not an inherently reliable rifle. If built right, and employed along with quality magazines and quality ammo, it can be reliable. However, use cheap magazines, or an upper without m4 feedramps, you will see hiccups. There have been and will continue to be warriors killed with jammed M16's in their hands. In that category alone there are many rifles which are worthy competitors. A good straight Russian AK74 for example. No one will ever win a land war in RoossEEa as long as the sons of Kievan Rus' have the AK-74 in their hands (unless the Mongolians get the band back together). But the AR shines in accuracy and Optics mounting.

mshootnit said:

The AR15/ M16 is not an inherently reliable rifle. If built right, and employed along with quality magazines and quality ammo, it can be reliable. However, use cheap magazines, or an upper without m4 feedramps, you will see hiccups. There have been and will continue to be warriors killed with jammed M16's in their hands. In that category alone there are many rifles which are worthy competitors. A good straight Russian AK74 for example. No one will ever win a land war in RoossEEa as long as the sons of Kievan Rus' have the AK-74 in their hands (unless the Mongolians get the band back together). But the AR shines in accuracy and Optics mounting.

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So, you’re saying that improperly built AR-15s are less reliable than properly built AKs? I don’t think you’ll find anybody to argue that point. That said, a properly built AR is just as reliable as an AK and is more accurate, more adaptable to the end user and much better designed for a modern fighting rifle in terms of adding lights and other necessities. I’ve seen AKs fail and I’ve seen ARs fail. The failure rates I’ve observed have been roughly the same across those two platforms. If you prefer an AK for ergonomics, that’s your choice, but the narrative that AKs are some unstoppable force is a bit ridiculous.

mshootnit said:

The AR15/ M16 is not an inherently reliable rifle. If built right, and employed along with quality magazines and quality ammo, it can be reliable. However, use cheap magazines, or an upper without m4 feedramps, you will see hiccups. There have been and will continue to be warriors killed with jammed M16's in their hands. In that category alone there are many rifles which are worthy competitors. A good straight Russian AK74 for example. No one will ever win a land war in RoossEEa as long as the sons of Kievan Rus' have the AK-74 in their hands (unless the Mongolians get the band back together). But the AR shines in accuracy and Optics mounting.

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Truly stated by someone that has never used ether rifle in combat. I carried the M16A1 and the A2. I used the M16A2 in combat against the AK47. At the end of the day i had ammo for my M16A2 and an AK47 that someone no longer had any use for. The saying is true, The first one to run out of ammo losses the fight.

Like I said I can't think of a good alternative when it comes to 5.56mm/.223 AR but have heard good things about the Galil and FN FNC but real ones will cost A LOT. Maybe a Steyr AUG but bullpup isn't my cup of tea.

A lot of good info has been discussed here.

I will try not to beat a dead horse or rehash what’s already been said and I will try and be constructive.

Like the OP I wanted a quality semi-auto rifle that was not an AR-15, some years ago.
I was in the Navy when the M-14 was the rifle. I was a Gunner’s Mate (Missile) but worked in the ship’s armory and fired and worked with the M-14 a lot. I really didn’t care for the M-16, which I had very little experience with.
I have owned a Garand and a couple of M-1 Carbines and a couple of SKS’s but my favorite guns were all Cowboy guns and older military guns.

I thought I wanted a Mini-14. I figured why not go with familiarity? I did not like the way it felt when shouldered. I got to fire one. I realized the Mini-14 wasn’t for me. It felt “small”.

I bought an AK-47 because my friends all had them and they “are the world’s battle rifle”. I tried to like it...I really did. I don’t. They are made for, well, they are not made for me.

I resisted the AR Trend at every turn. I turned my nose up at them and avoided them at gun shows, at the range, with my friends, etc. I was not going to be a sheep following the crowd...

In 2008 I bought a Century Arms AR-15 rifle that was built using CA receivers and Colt parts. I really wasn’t looking for an AR. The LGS was having a smokin’ sale on them and I figured “What the heck?!”.

I became hooked on the AR-15. I was fun. It was fairly simple. It was easy to work on. IF one was willing to change their thinking on gun platforms.

I looked at numerous other options for a semi auto rifle or carbine, but cost, availability of parts and accessories, information on building, repair and upkeep is easily accessible and plentiful. It does not hurt that one can pretty much customize their gun to to own liking and individualize it with different accessories and even colors.

I used to get turned off by the phrase “LEGOs for men” (and Ladies too) in regards to AR based firearms but the moniker kind of fits.

I have owned 5 different ARs. One was purchased already built. The other 4 I built though I did buy a built upper - A Ruger SR556 piston upper. I joined the piston upper bandwagon. Nice way to take a light, easy handling gun and increase it’s weight to beyond sensible for the round...but I digress. ( couldn’t sell that thing fast enough)

My 2 cents is this. If you have no experience with the AR-15 and are looking for other options that aren’t AR-15s because they aren’t AR-15s you at least owe it to yourself to try the AR-15 and make sure you really don’t want one. It would be a shame to find out a few years from now that you spent 2 or 3 times more money on a gun type just because it wasn’t an AR-15 only to find you should have gone with an AR in the first place.

I was in same camp as you for a long time, Pat Riot, but for a different reason- I was burnt out on them. I was an Armorer, and had to fix them, and teach people how to clean them at least well enough to keep them running, (it was a REMF unit) though I did have some fun coming up with a solution for the recon unit in the 7th for a short rifle. The XM177E2 had been withdrawn, and the m4 yet to be issued.
I did build an XM177E2 clone (with pinned flash hider to make 16") after I got out, back when building and AR was actually complete assembly, not popping two pins in on assembled uppers and lowers. It was a fun range toy, but that was it, and a new kid and the Clinton ban made selling it a good option. I made many times what I had into it.
But I got out of them for a while after that, and when someone had one at the range and offered me a magful, I'd pass. I built myself an AK, had fun with that, but my oldest wanted an AR so I assisted him in finding a good deal on a DPMS Sportical. ( I got the 500 rounds of Silver Bear 62 gr. that came with it, he didn't want it) Then he decided he wanted a Savage Axis again, he had sold his first one to buy the AR, and he wanted his old 870 back. (I had that, and an Axis.) So we traded, even though I wasn't all that enthused about the AR. (even though it shoots well with the load I worked up for him to hunt with) Then I was at a show with a buddy, and a dealer had Anderson lowers so cheap he's like "C'mon you can't pass that up!" So we each bought one. I built a pistol on mine. Then Fleet Farm had them on sale, and again, now I have another pistol in the works. They insidiously reproduce whenever my wallet has spare cash.....

I built my first one because I took a break from racing and was basically bored. I had never liked AR15's or any semi auto rifle in general really. I thought the operating mechanism was stupid and grew up hearing the horror stories from the early Vietnam vets on the history channel. I certainly never really thought I would ever own one and was always really puzzled why they were so popular. I had shot a few but they didn't do anything for me.

I like to challenge my own prejudices so one day I decided I wanted to see what all the hype was about building them so I decided I was going to build one and try to correct all the things I don't like about them. First being the charging handle. I can see the utility of the charging handle for its intended military role, but I just hate it. So I found a bear creek side charging upper on a really good sale. I also hate collapsible stocks so I got an A2 stock. I wasn't sure which direction I wanted to go with it so I ordered a 16" carbine barrel kit from delton with a front sight post, and a 20 varmint barrel from bergara with a 15" tube forend. Figured I would try both and see what sticks.

I decided early I didn't want the front sight so this was the 16" setup with chopped front sight



This was the 20” Bergara varmint barrel weighing 60 ounces



So I learned two things from this, the 16" delton barrel was not accurate enough to be interesting, so I learned I was not going to be entertained with a 3 moa AR15. Secondly the 20" bull barrel was so ungainly and front heavy that I had zero interest in it even though it was quite accurate.

From there I got a couple more 16" barrels that were better shooters, but I really was not into a 16" 223 just because of the muzzle blast and the poor ballistics of the short barrel. So at that point I was still pretty cold on this whole AR15 concept. I decided maybe I would try a different caliber so I decided to try a 300 blackout barrel. I really really loved the 300 blackout. It was accurate, soft report, good thump on my steel plates.



A month earlier I had almost had had enough of the whole thing and was about to sell it all but the 300 blackout upper sparked new interest in me. From there I decided to invest some more money and I bought another upper so I could have a dedicated 223 and 300 blackout uppers. For the 2nd upper I got a 20" fluted ballistic advantage barrel which really gave me the best of both worlds, 20" velocities and report with 16" weight. Its a very accurate barrel and it handles nice. Its a full 2 pounds lighter than the bergara barrel it replaced. I am still not head over heals about it, but its a very effective tool.



So the next step was one day there was some talk on the forums about 7.62x39 AR's vs 300 blackout. I was a big blackout fan at that point and was pretty adamant in my thinking that there was just no reason for a 7.62x39 in an AR15. Well again I like to build stuff and experiment and challenge my own perceptions so I figured I would try one. I ordered a 7.62x39 barrel and put it on my 300 blackout upper. First impressions I was not really impressed. $4/20 is pretty nice as is leaving the steel cases to rot in my field, but the barrel I had only shot 2-3 moa with the stuff which is pretty unstimulating. So I bought two more barrels. The next one was also 2-3 moa and heavy, but the last one is magic. Its a mid weight profile and shoots anything you put in it sub moa. This was the first 5 shots ever put down the barrel with steel case wolf. The top one was the first shot before scope adjustment.



This is with 125 nosler accubonds loaded into steel cases with CFE BLK. Good for 2600 fps.



This gun is absolute love. Its already like an old friend. Its silly accurate with wolf ammo, it runs and runs and runs even when filthy, its very soft on the ears, the ergonomics are perfection for me, what else can a guy want?



I never ever thought I would deer hunt with an AR15 having looked down my nose at people who did for years, but I took it anyway just because I like it so much. Its a great rifle in the deer stand and brush and doesn't mind being wet.





I like it so much I even built a mini version in 9mm (yes I know the brake is upside down on the 20" upper, that was temporary till I got a thread protector for it)



For this year I have a 358 yeti barrel on order with another identical upper, handguard, scope, and mount waiting for it. I expect that will be my go to medium range hunting rifle from here on out.

With my MP10 I can and have made shots on running game. They are one of the best if not the best at quick shooting, maybe its the pistol grip. However shooting off a truck hood the old school wood rifle is pretty skick.

AndyP said:

One of the AR's greatest strengths is that it's an inherently accurate design. One would be hard pressed to come up with a semi-auto that shot better.
Generally, they shoot on par with bolt action rifles.

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That's definitely debatable. But not tonight.

The Exile said:

When you buy a rifle in the US there are a few options but when talking about things that fire 5.56 or similar typically most people will direct you to one of dozens of different AR choices. There's a few competitors out there like the AK 47/74 or things like the Tavor or the SCAR16.

I wanted to know because really I don't have the budget or the time to really go out and make a point to track down and rent all these different guns. Did the AR15 truly earn it's popularity by being the best of the best? Is it just because it's so easy to customize and tune for yourself? Are there guns that aren't really available on the general market (SA80, G36, FAMAS, etc.) that might be able to dethrone the AR if there was consumer versions available?

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Get an AR, you won't regret it ... unless they're all confiscated that is.

That said, IMHO, get an AR, get as good of an AR as you can afford. There are plenty of threads here on THR on how to do that.

They got banned in my state last year.....along with the AK47. The Mini 14 is still legal and selling like pancakes in fat camp

I like ARs just fine but if you just want to get something different for whatever reason I really love my Bren 805. Probably can't recommend it as CZ is already replacing it with a tweaked/upgraded version but the new one will likely be excellent as well. Personally I like my Bren more than an AR but I will always have ARs for all the reasons listed above.

Phaedrus/69 said:

I like ARs just fine but if you just want to get something different for whatever reason I really love my Bren 805. Probably can't recommend it as CZ is already replacing it with a tweaked/upgraded version but the new one will likely be excellent as well. Personally I like my Bren more than an AR but I will always have ARs for all the reasons listed above.

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The Bren 805 is a nice rifle, but at 8.5 lbs it’s a little heavy. And then there’s that hefty price tag that comes in around $2000.