USSS to the Dark Side

Status
Not open for further replies.
a big .357 Sig fan I think a move to 9mm is probably the right move at this time for cost reduction.

I'm a big 10mm/40 user. I also agree with you on the move to 9 for an agency for a host of reasons.
I also like hammer fired guns personally, but I think the simple, lightweight, slab sided Glock is a perfect choice in agency numbers. Cost/ availability of accessories, and parts as well as the guns themselves etc makes it hard to argue with. Personal preference aside there just isn't much one could say against such a move
 
When the FBI decided to blame the 9m.m. Silvertip bullet for the poor performance of it agents in the Miami shoot out, it could have gone with the SIG 220 in .45ACP. NOPE, it had to have a new caliber, the 10m.m. A round that already had a reputation for heavy recoil in full power loads and could be hard on guns and shooter. So it bought a 10m.m. in a LARGE pistol and it was a disaster. So they went back to the 9m.m. till the .40 came along. WHY?

The FBI is a example of protecting their image. In doing so they ignored real problems that exist even until today.

Agencies are bureaucracies and they are every bit as emotional and irrational in what they do as people.
My experience in the Federal bureaucracy has taught me that.

Another big problem is how agencies budgets are determined. There is no incentive to save money. A agency might come up with some one time ideas to cut their budget say for example $100,000. Since it was a only one time idea the agency will not be able to operate at the same level of service the following year with $100,000 less money. However bean counters only see that since they did it that year then they are being overfunded and can operate on the previous budget.

As for all D.H.S. agencies carrying the same gun and ammunition research by a independent company / committee could compile data on all of the shootings done over the last five years and tabulate the results into number of rounds fired, conditions, type of incidents (for example Officer being attacked, serving arrest warrants, etc.). Hundreds of thousand of dollars could be spent to gather this information only to be it ignored and forgotten about by the powers that be that are unwilling to give up any authority. A perfect example is the feud between the Army and Marines over using the same 5.56 ammunition.
 
The US military used the 1911 for 70 years. Now the military and other armed federal agencies change handguns like changing sox. And every time they do a small fortune is spent on accessories. with a 1911 a magazine from 1911 will still work in a newly made 1911. The holster, mag carriers and so on are also still useable. Going to 9mm required a fresh stock of ammo. Ammo as old as WWII if stored properly is still useable.

Somewhere, someone made a whole lot of money on these changes. And I'm not talking about the suppliers.
 
…. with a 1911 a magazine from 1911 will still work in a newly made 1911.
Funny, no one I know that carries a 1911 uses WWII era magazines. While they may function, I sure as heck wouldn't trust my life to a military surplus magazine from 1943.



The holster, mag carriers and so on are also still useable.
Really?o_O Have you looked at the price of WWII era holsters and magazine pouches on Ebay lately?
And for goodness sake...…….virtually no soldier wants to go into combat using a leather holster with a flap and snap.



Going to 9mm required a fresh stock of ammo. Ammo as old as WWII if stored properly is still useable.
Oh good grief. "If stored properly"? "still useable"?
No one really knows how a particular box of WWII era .45acp was stored for the last SEVENTY FIVE YEARS. I wouldn't send out a mall security guard with magazines and ammunition from seventy five years ago. And I figure no one else would want that for federal agents either.

Somewhere, someone made a whole lot of money on these changes. And I'm not talking about the suppliers.
Well, no kidding.
It is the duty of government to spend our money.
That said, using WWII era 1911's, holsters, mag pouches and ammunition for current military/law enforcement officers is the dumbest idea I've heard in quite some time.
 
BSA!,

Before I went into law enforcement, I worked in the private sector and remember one manager coming out and telling people to order things because it was free money. It is not just the government. It is how bureaucrats work and think.

Jim
 
Funny, no one I know that carries a 1911 uses WWII era magazines. While they may function, I sure as heck wouldn't trust my life to a military surplus magazine from 1943.




Really?o_O Have you looked at the price of WWII era holsters and magazine pouches on Ebay lately?
And for goodness sake...…….virtually no soldier wants to go into combat using a leather holster with a flap and snap.




Oh good grief. "If stored properly"? "still useable"?
No one really knows how a particular box of WWII era .45acp was stored for the last SEVENTY FIVE YEARS. I wouldn't send out a mall security guard with magazines and ammunition from seventy five years ago. And I figure no one else would want that for federal agents either.


Well, no kidding.
It is the duty of government to spend our money.
That said, using WWII era 1911's, holsters, mag pouches and ammunition for current military/law enforcement officers is the dumbest idea I've heard in quite some time.

You missed the point entirely. While old accessories may have worn out, the design remains the same. And I happen to have several WWII "surplus" magazines that work just fine. Buying replacements or even upgrades would likely have cost much less than completely changing the firearm and ammunition necessary.

The main thrust of my comments is simply that someone, somewhere got a huge bonus for making the change. And now they are doing it again.
 
BSA!,

Before I went into law enforcement, I worked in the private sector and remember one manager coming out and telling people to order things because it was free money. It is not just the government. It is how bureaucrats work and think.

Jim

I used to work as a contractor for a number of states' DOT and often got the question "hey, we're under budget ... What else can you sell us?". It was free money on our end, whatever we delivered didn't even have to work, they would never use it (data) or even look at it.

The joy of working with the government.
 
Adopting the .357 SIG was a poorly thought out move in the first place.

The SIG and the Glock are dead eqaul in quality, reliability, durability, accuracy etc. No harm, no foul there.

The only difference is one uses a decent round, and the other does not.

This was done merely to give the seat-warmers and little people an equal opportunity to qualify. There was no consideration given to actual field use. Just my opinion.
 
For some agencies, saving money in firearms acquisitions means more ammo practice/range time.
Broward Police in Florida moved from HK in .45 cal to Glock, some officers were very happy transitioning from huge guns, carriers with heavy ammo and BUG, taser and equipment to Glock 9 mm.
Sometimes common sense get closer to be best decision.
 
The only difference is one uses a decent round, and the other does not.

This was done merely to give the seat-warmers and little people an equal opportunity to qualify. There was no consideration given to actual field use. Just my opinion.
An opinion based on what?
Certainly not research done by the US military, FBI, Secret Service and others.
Being a fanboy is fine, but claiming "no consideration given to actual field use" is flat out ignorant. I have several customers who are USSS, they love the .357sig round, but not a one is complaining about the new Glock or the 9mm. In fact, two carry Glock 43's off duty.

This was passed on to me:
Where were you in 1998? Well in 1998 the U.S. Secret Service was purchasing duty weapons for sworn personnel - the Sig Sauer P229 to be exact.
Since 1998, many things within the Secret Service evolved - our integrated mission, as well as our duty weapon requirements. When Director Randolph Alles began his tenure with the Secret Service in 2017, he recognized the need to prioritize and address the need to modernize the Secret Service duty weapon; the P229 no longer met all of our updated mission requirements and was due for lifecycle replacement.

Discussions with end-users and RTC firearms instructors continually echoed concerns such as the lack of integrated light/accessory rail, the legacy DA/SA design, the increased weight compared to modern polymer-framed designs, and limited grip adaptability/customization for gun carriers. As discussions progressed, a need was also recognized for an updated assessment of ammunition and/or caliber requirements, as the .357SIG round accelerated wear and maintenance issues on existing weapons, not to mention the increasingly limited offering of various training munitions required by RTC, such as ‘Simunitions’, Frangible, Blank, and “Green” ammo.

By August 2017, the Use of Force Review Board requested RTC’s Firearms Policy and Development Section to formally take steps necessary to identify, procure, and deploy a new handgun system suitable for adoption and use by all Secret Service gun-carriers. In addition to the ammunition assessment, this process would also include addressing any necessary transition-related training, possible changes to the re-qualification requirements, capture technical and design requirements, and lay out testing procedures, all with relevant input from identified gun-carrying stakeholders, principally: INV, UND, SII, OPO, to include SOD, and TEC.

In December 2017, following comprehensive ballistic testing, RTC’s Firearms Policy and Development and Armory staff presented comparative ammunition performance data to the Use of Force Board. Citing no significant loss of critical terminal performance, the Board’s unanimous recommendation was to transition the Secret Service to modern 9mm ammunition for the future duty handgun.
Ultimately, this decision was concurred by Director Alles in January 2018.

At the same time, the Office of Training (TNG) began the process of identifying and requesting necessary funds for the purchase of new handguns, accessories, as well as the associated training costs, through the submission of the Resource Allocation Process.

Throughout 2018, RTC Firearms Policy and Development Section met with representatives from relevant end-users to identify the critical features for the new handgun selective process. These included:
• Striker-Fired: to provide enhanced trigger manipulation during training and qualification,
• Integrated Accessory/Light Rail: to allow for enhanced target identification in low visibility,
• Grip Modularity: to provide customization capability to support individual physical characteristics,
• “Family” Design (full-size to subcompact): to support diverse USSS missions such as the unique missions of SOD, CSU, etc.
• Marking-style Models: to support realistic and cutting-edge training, simunition, UTM, laser
• Next Generation Considerations: future compatibility with developing technologies (i.e. electronic sighting systems, RFID for inventory controls, etc.)

Market research also accelerated at this time as RTC procured sample guns from a variety of manufacturers to assess their reliability, accuracy, and ergonomics. By late 2018, using those features identified by relevant stakeholders, RTC drafted an acquisition proposal packet and began active engagement with the USSS Procurement Division.
RTC Firearms Policy and Development also stepped up efforts to leverage relationships with our law enforcement and military partners to ensure the next gen Secret Service handgun offered the most modern capabilities of the day, and was also optimized to address the future needs of the Secret Service.

After the Government Shutdown in January 2019, RTC was allocated FY19 funding to begin formal acquisition of a new handgun. Following the April 2019 contract award by Customs and Border Protection (CBP), RTC began a comprehensive validation testing process to determine if those selected handguns would meet the Secret Services’ stringent requirements. RTC procured and tested three distinct models and conducted an exhaustive assessment of accuracy, safety, technical compliance, and 10,000 round live-fire testing.

Upon conclusion, it was determined that the tested Glock handguns had proven themselves, both in Secret Service testing and in critical operations around the globe, to meet the ‘no-fail’ mission carried out every day by our workforce.
With this and other ongoing equipment modernization efforts, Secret Service personnel can have the trust and confidence that their issued gear and training is ready to meet 21st century challenges.

These Glock handguns have met or exceeded all Secret Service requirements and represent the highest-quality law enforcement equipment available today. They will provide a significant step forward in capabilities for when our personnel are engaged in lethal force situations” said ATSAIC John Pessia, RTC Firearms and Policy Development Section.
In July 2019, Director James Murray authorized the Secret Service to pursue the acquisition of the new Glock 9mm handgun.

By leveraging the latest DHS contract, the Secret Service was able to meet significant milestones and maximize its allotted funding, thereby ensuring the new handguns will be immediately deployable with issued weapon-mounted lights, holsters, and training to meet the modern demands of the workforce.
 
Reports from Iraq are that both the .357 in a revolver and the .45 acp in a 1911 are much more effective than a 9 mm from a Beretta.

These are from two Marines who were not issued handguns ut followed the generationally passed down advice to “find a handgun as soon as you get in country”. Amazing how advice from WWI through the current conflict remains spot on.
 
Reports from Iraq are that both the .357 in a revolver and the .45 acp in a 1911 are much more effective than a 9 mm from a Beretta.

These are from two Marines who were not issued handguns ut followed the generationally passed down advice to “find a handgun as soon as you get in country”. Amazing how advice from WWI through the current conflict remains spot on.

And yet from a realitive that carried an M9 daily in Iraq and Afghanistan was perfectly happy with 9mm as his only weapon.

Well, ok I guess he had his Blackhawk too :)

I worked with a couple other Army guys who were happy with both 9mm and 5.56 from their experiences in the sandbox as well. Guess everyone is different and all that.
 
Reports from Iraq are that both the .357 in a revolver and the .45 acp in a 1911 are much more effective than a 9 mm from a Beretta.

These are from two Marines who were not issued handguns ut followed the generationally passed down advice to “find a handgun as soon as you get in country”. Amazing how advice from WWI through the current conflict remains spot on.
Oh good grief. That "generationally passed down advice" will get you court martialed.
It's pretty well known that any US soldier carrying an unauthorized firearm is in serious violation of Army/Navy/Marine/Air Force regulations.

Anecdotal+anonymous+violation of standing orders= probably not a shred of fact.
 
Why can't we ever get an American firearm for American personnel ? Yes Glock and Sig make good guns, but man it's a bummer to see them carrying foreign stuff. Yes even the ones "made here". The Smith and Wesson and P exists ya know.
1. "American" manufacturers haven't been able to provide a handgun that can pass the military requirements. That's sad.
2. "Winning" a military contract means your production for the civilian market my take a back seat. (see Colt)
3. Profit. The MHS contract was awarded to SIG because it represented the best value over the Glock. SIG's price was significantly lower than Glock. (nevermind that the SIG fired when dropped :rofl:).
4. Some companies are unwilling to give up manufacturing "rights" to win military contracts. Usually a requirement is the US gov can have other companies manufacture the winning design in an emergency. (as in 1911's, M1 carbines, M1 rifles, M16's etc)
 
Why can't we ever get an American firearm for American personnel ? Yes Glock and Sig make good guns, but man it's a bummer to see them carrying foreign stuff. Yes even the ones "made here". The Smith and Wesson and P exists ya know.

Did Ruger even submit a entry? Colt doesn't have the ability nor creativity to submit a entry. That pretty much leaves S&W.

As dogtown tom states most companies don't want to screw with their civilian side to fulfill a military contract.
 
Glock started manufacturing with intention of fulfill the military market in Austria first only, police and private owners came later locally and worldwide.
Glock did not follow crazy trends (never needed it to assure market) just little changes here and there but keep the navigation straight.
I would love to have an American manufacturer of firearms (again) producing a pistols to be use Worldwide again.
However, there are few manufactures with the capacity to supply both market.
 
You know after thinking about it I’d pay a premium for a secret service sig they should come with some kind of certificate when they are sold off. Who wouldn’t want a gun that protected the president no matter your political affiliation

I'd be willing to bet that 95% of Secret Service agents never get within five miles of the President.
 
Oh good grief. That "generationally passed down advice" will get you court martialed.
It's pretty well known that any US soldier carrying an unauthorized firearm is in serious violation of Army/Navy/Marine/Air Force regulations.

Anecdotal+anonymous+violation of standing orders= probably not a shred of fact.

Ok, my grandfather, father, sons and I are all liars. Now, do you feel better.
 
I'd be willing to bet that 95% of Secret Service agents never get within five miles of the President.
You would lose that bet....badly. Not only due to the fact that EVERY USSS will be on a protective detail during their career, but even those in Investigations are pulled out for protective assignments.
While the President has his protective detail, additional USSS agents are deployed whenever he travels. USSS agents all go through a protective detail phase of their career. USSS provides a protective detail to the current President and VP and their families, as well as former Presidents and Vice Presidents.

For example:
Trump visits El Paso, not only does his protective detail go, but additional USSS agents are pulled from other cities. They provide additional layers of security, often hundreds of yards away. Meanwhile, Melania has her own detail, as does each of Trumps kids.
 
Reports from Iraq are that both the .357 in a revolver and the .45 acp in a 1911 are much more effective than a 9 mm from a Beretta.

These are from two Marines who were not issued handguns ut followed the generationally passed down advice to “find a handgun as soon as you get in country”. Amazing how advice from WWI through the current conflict remains spot on.

Sounds like you talked to a couple of guys who are full of fecal matter.

I did the Iraq thing in 2004 while in the USMC as an infantryman. There is no regular command anywhere, in any branch, that would tolerate a soldier or Marine carrying a personally owned or acquired weapon. Period. Full stop. Go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200. There are zero officers who would risk their soldiers or Marines getting caught with a weapon in possible violation of The Hague Convention. That would be an immediate career ender.

I was able to capture or confiscate plenty of small arms, and can also state with no doubts that the quality of captured weapons were such that most were garbage. Iraqis like most non Americans don’t have any appreciation for handguns, and those we did find were all poorly maintained trash that no one in their right mind would trust their life with.

Even getting a souvenir back is a pain, much less a captured weapon as an individual (pretty much impossible unless you want to break some laws). We had to jump through our own butts to get the Air Farce pukes doing customs inspection to allow a bow and arrows to go back to CONUS that we used for recreation. No broad heads either: just field points, an old compound bow, and a very well used cube target. All captured weapons had to be declared as unit trophies and were deactivated.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top