That's why I asked if it had ever happened. I've never heard of a lawsuit like that but obviously that doesn't mean it hasn't occurred. I think the risk is tiny, possibly close to non-existent, primarily because I've heard a fair number of stories of people talking to LE after a gun they sold was used in a crime, and yet I've never heard of anyone being sued over it.
Would you use a free background check service?
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That's why I asked if it had ever happened. I've never heard of a lawsuit like that but obviously that doesn't mean it hasn't occurred. I think the risk is tiny, possibly close to non-existent, primarily because I've heard a fair number of stories of people talking to LE after a gun they sold was used in a crime, and yet I've never heard of anyone being sued over it.
Mowgli Terry
Member
My mistake, I thought we were talking selling a firearm in a voluntary system of background checks.
FlSwampRat
Member
For example: https://www.kvia.com/news/texas/aca...selling-gun-to-texas-church-shooter/673553556
The important points are:
In a statement, the sporting goods retailer offered condolences to the victims but said it complied with all laws.
Kelley slaughtered 26 people at a Texas church and was able to buy weapons because the Air Force failed to report his domestic-violence conviction to the federal database that is used to conduct background checks on would-be gun purchasers, authorities said.
All laws complied with, Air Force dropped the ball, suit filed against the legal retailer. Doesn't matter if the suit was won or lost, it cost the retailer money f
FlSwampRat
Member
I am.
These are the reasons I would use a background check system and why I always say F&A background checks. Fast and Accurate. If it isn't fast it becomes a stumbling block and if it isn't accurate it's worthless.
Mowgli Terry
Member
FISwampRat: I should have dropped in quote to clarify which post that was being addressed.
DeepSouth
Random Guy
Perhaps I misunderstood. I was asking specifically about this statement.
Neither of the above examples have anything to do with a legal private sale of a firearm (though now that I reread it, perhaps FISwampRat didn't mean private sales when he said "direct"?)
A very quick Westlaw search across all states using " 'negligent entrustment' /p firearm," which should look for "negligent entrustment" in the same paragraph as "firearm," turned up 2,721 cases. Here is a more-or-less random sampling of those cases, except that I wanted to include only cases against individuals. I have not read them, but merely submit them to show that they do exist.
Attachments
A quick speed read through those revealed multiple cases where a gun (or in one case, a BB gun) were indeed provided to someone negligently. None of them that I saw were an example of someone legally selling a firearm in a private sale to someone who they had no reason to believe was a prohibited person. I'll read through them more carefully later if I get the chance.
Yes, but go back and read what you wrote. Better yet, let me show you how a lawyer reads that. You're looking for a case which is an example of:
- someone legally selling a firearm
- in a private sale
- to someone who
- they had no reason to believe
- was a prohibited person.
Exactly, which was kind of my point. My question, to put it succinctly, was, "Has anyone who legally sold a firearm in a private sale ever been sued, successfully or otherwise, when that firearm was used by the buyer to commit an illegal act".
Mowgli Terry
Member
With this system in place it would appear that realistically there's not much voluntary about it. There is a risk involved in not using the background check.
Perhaps that's the question you meant to ask, but I'm not convinced that it's the one that you actually asked. In any event, no harm, no foul. I just didn't want everyone to overlook negligent entrustment. The theory is out there.
FlSwampRat
Member
Just because someone hasn't launched a suit yet, doesn't mean that it won't happen. It may be unlikely, but it's possible. Odds are slim. Yet people still buy lottery tickets.
I asked,
in response to this post,
I assumed that, given the subject of this thread, FISwampRat was talking about private sales when he said "direct seller". Perhaps that assumption is the source of the confusion. Anyway, as you say,
Carry on.
I am still curious if anyone can cite a case of a private seller getting sued over a buyer's criminal use of the sold firearm.
Mowgli Terry
Member
This is a hoot. Americans are the most litigious race on the planet.
FlSwampRat
Member
Say that again and you'll hear from my lawyer!
BigSteve57
Member
I'm not really sure what liability I have now with a face to face sale. That's one reason why I would probably never do one. Gun manufacturers with deep pockets are being sued now despite having statutory protection.
However my post was in the context of a time where there would be a free background check. That was the point of this thread. I am speculating that if there were a free BC available and I were to sell a firearm, without using it, to a prohibited person and/or to someone that used the firearm in a crime I would be sued civilly or prosecuted. It would all depend on how the law was written.
I am also not speculating that if I made a FTF sale that I would actually lose a suit now or under some future arrangement where there were free BC's. You don't have to lose in court to go bankrupt defending yourself after all.
kimberkid
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I have no interest in selling a felon or otherwise restricted person buy a gun, but what about those that would mis-use the system? Or someone that wanted to make it appear they sold their guns by picking names out of a phone book ...
Just use your imagination, it's not the law abiding citizen you have to worry about.
Just use your imagination, it's not the law abiding citizen you have to worry about.
BigSteve57
Member
LOL. The phone book sales would rank right up there with all those people that lost entire gun collections in boating accidents.
For purposes of negligent entrustment, I'm not convinced that a sale would be any different than a loan. I could make an argument that it is, but I haven't seen any authority to support it. Then again, I haven't done any significant research on that issue.
huntsman
Member
If you’re counting on a voluntary BC to dodge liability you have more faith in the system than I would, if you’re suspicious of someone enough to ask for a voluntary check just don’t sell to them.
The only way I see the system as safe(from liability) would be if its mandatory then you just blame the bureaucrats for the screwup
The only way I see the system as safe(from liability) would be if its mandatory then you just blame the bureaucrats for the screwup
Mowgli Terry
Member
Tell it to the judge!
BSA1
member
Only a fool will give his full name, address, race, sex, date of birth and Social Security number to the seller whom he does not know without any guarantee that all of this information is only going to be used to do a criminal background check and will be destroyed by both the seller and the Government after it is done.
But the real heart of the question is how many people want permission from the Government to sell / buy a firearm.
But the real heart of the question is how many people want permission from the Government to sell / buy a firearm.
Jenrick
Member
As I mentioned earlier, a background check system that is similar to the NCIC system, only takes a name and a DOB.
Also what the heck are people putting in bills of sale that has everyone freaked out about it. Mine usually read something like: On (date), (buyers name) purchased the following (make model and S/N of gun) from (my name) for (dollar amount). We both sign below. I ask to see a CHL (well LTC here in Texas) or DL to verify identity, and ask them verbally if they are a prohibited person.
Also what the heck are people putting in bills of sale that has everyone freaked out about it. Mine usually read something like: On (date), (buyers name) purchased the following (make model and S/N of gun) from (my name) for (dollar amount). We both sign below. I ask to see a CHL (well LTC here in Texas) or DL to verify identity, and ask them verbally if they are a prohibited person.
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