Why not control neck tension with the expander ball?

Check out Widden dies they have a FL sizing die with expander ball, they also have the same die with bushings. In my mind you only want to use a bushing die if you are turning the neck. If you don't turn the necks and use a bushing die with no expander you are just pushing any inconsistencies to the inside of the neck just where you don't want it.

Isn't the current hot setup to size the case and then expand the neck with a mandrel die?

pert near said:

Why don't the die makers produce dies that reduce the neck to a little under minimum & then control the final diameter with the expander button?

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Am I missing something? Isn't this what a standard sizing die does?

yes but it's all about degrees. Manufacturers have to be able to work any brand of brass, at various thicknesses and case wall thickness and symmetry. So with their "normal" dies they over-size then push a ball back out. Unless you want to pay a lot more......read the competition die thread on the latest from RCBS, and you get the picture, and choose your brand of expensive dies......if you think you have a need.

There are two purposes involved in neck resizing with a bushing.

Consistent neck tension

and

Just the right amount of neck tension

If the necks are not turned, then indeed you are just pushing the inconsistencies in or out. It doesn't matter whether they're in or out. The bullet will push them out anyway, but they will be there until you turn them off.

But even if the necks are not turned, a neck-only bushing die can be used to resize the neck to an ID 0.001" or 0.002" under the bullet diameter with a minimal amount of work-hardening the brass. The alternative is to squish the brass much smaller and then expand it out. Since brass has different thickness, a one-size-fits-all die will work different brass to a different degree.

I'm confused. I'm not a bench rest shooter and just use Lee, RCBS, Redding and Herters dies, but I believe the sizing dies reduce the neck diameter both OD and ID and the neck tension is determined by the expander plug being pulled through the sized neck to a specific ID, thus "controlling" neck tension?

mdi said:

I'm confused. I'm not a bench rest shooter and just use Lee, RCBS, Redding and Herters dies, but I believe the sizing dies reduce the neck diameter both OD and ID and the neck tension is determined by the expander plug being pulled through the sized neck to a specific ID, thus "controlling" neck tension?

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Yes that's correct. Sometimes the expander ball expands the neck too much. Perfect example is my 8mm Mauser. When using the Lee full length sizing die the expander ball expands the neck to an internal diameter of 0.322". Normally, bullets used for 8mm Mauser should be of 0.323" diameter but all the privi/PPU bullets I've used mic at 0.322" to 0.3225". After seating I can sometimes push these bullets in by hand force as there's almost zero neck tension.

I use S&B bullets now which are the correct dimension, but I suppose I could also polish the expander ball a wee bit to ensure adequate neck tension.

You could hone you die to prevent the OD/ID from being reduced too much but the expander ball would still have the final say in the overall OD/ID. However, this could improve brass life by reducing hardening of brass which could make it brittle.

I know a fellow who hones the necks of his ordinary F.L. sizers......and he buys a sizer and hones it for each brand (same caliber) of brass he uses. He turns his expander balls until they don't expand at all but merely hold the depriming rod. That means the O.D. is perfect and the I.D. is not. Then he inside reams his necks to the amount of tension he requires. He considers this even better than bushings. He is serious about this and his winning ways in long range and benchrest proves it. For non-competitors like me who have other interests in life....it's not going to happen.

But if the above intrigues anyone, they might like to know that Forster will hone one of their sizers for you to your specs, for a minuscule amount of cash.
Oh! I forgot to mention, that Forster also makes the inside reamers for the purpose. No donuts ever..... (no stretched necks either)

Gents
I quit using Dies with expander balls and switched to F/L bushing type dies that have a decapper Rod. I was seeing a lot of case neck stretching /thinning followed by constant trimming, E-Gads”””

im much happier with bushing Dies even with a no turn neck pushing the so called inconsistencies inward I doubt if I or anyone else could even shoot the difference. It’s a non factor folks , trust me on this one...

pert near said:

I have a couple of sizing die sets that use bushings to control neck tension. Slick but expensive idea. Additional bushings vary from $10 to $25 a piece! Kinda shuts down a lot of experimentation.

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A little off topic. I form cases for 22x6.8 from 6.8 SPC (AR-15) as well as 22 Bench Rest (Savage Competition Bolt Action) from 6mm Bench Rest. In both cases, I use a bushing die to reduce the neck diameter to the appropriate size.

The 22x6.8 takes several steps (several bushings) to go from 270 caliber down to 22 caliber while the 6mm to 22 caliber for 22 Bench Rest is a bit easier.

Both rifles are expected to be used for prairie dogs so "Bench Rest" competition accuracy is not as necessary but I make things as uniform as reasonably possible.

In both instances, the cases are not modified except for case mouth diameter so the bushing dies make an economical alternative to custom forming dies.

Allen One1 said:

Isn't the current hot setup to size the case and then expand the neck with a mandrel die?

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Sorta but Not really,
we mostly use an expander Mandrel on virgin brass especially Lapua to ensure nice and round in addition virgin Lapua brass as you probably know has quite bit of hold so opening them up slightly more is helpful on the Arbor press linkage.
J

pert near said:

I have a couple of sizing die sets that use bushings to control neck tension. Slick but expensive idea. Additional bushings vary from $10 to $25 a piece! Kinda shuts down a lot of experimentation.

Why don't the die makers produce dies that reduce the neck to a little under minimum & then control the final diameter with the expander button? (I believe most dies probably already under size the neck plenty already.) A DIY'er could even polish down a steel oversize bushing a thousand or two himself. Sure seems like it'd be cheaper - or is that the reason for not doing it?

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I’ll try to answer a couple of these,

Manufacturers try to control the final diameter with the expander,their just not very good at it.

It’s pretty violent in there dragging that ball back and forth. Brass takes a beating ( pie dough effect)

DIY’er polishing dies and bushing that are case harden and heat treated? Humm sounds like a lot of work to me.

Anyone who wants great dies at great prices, check Wilson F/L Dies at Brunos,

FYI a supply of bushings to select from just goes with the territory

Why don't the die makers produce dies that reduce the neck to a little under minimum & then control the final diameter with the expander button?

Click to expand...

Most do for the reasons stated above.

If you size to a given OD, you ID is dependent on case wall thickness. If the wall thickness varies by .001 the ID will be .002 different (assuming the wall thickness is the same all the way around both cases). So pulling an expander back through is a cheap and easy way to have all the ID’s the same but requires one to make the neck smaller than necessary.

How much smaller might be the next question. Remove the decapping pin/expander from your size die, size a case and measure vs one that has been expanded and you can see the difference.

I'm just getting into bushing dies and although I have several calibers I'm currently only doing it for a 30-06. I really like the concept and after buying several bushings I found that a 329 bushing works good with Winchester cases. This gives a neck tension where I can push the lever on my press down when seating with slight thump pressure. I do anneal my case necks.

Wow, those dies look precise and expensive?

I have never gotten into the precision game or I would probably have similar tools. I guess I started shooting too late in life.

I guess I'll be different. I'm not a bushing die fan unless you turn the case necks. I do have a few rifles with tight neck chambers that I turn the necks for and I use bushing dies for them. Even with turning the necks I probably have 3 bushings per caliber. I have polished the expander ball on all of my FL die sets and this smoothes them up some. I have also bought carbide expander balls for the calibers that I load the most.

ArchAngelCD said:

Wow, those dies look precise and expensive?

I have never gotten into the precision game or I would probably have similar tools. I guess I started shooting too late in life.

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Considering the cost of powder brass Bullets and the misc reloading equipment, why not have good Dies?
They size brass like a hot knife through butter
Example- Wilson F/L bushing type dies are $59 and the bushing $12 at Brunos

Walkalong said:

A Wilson threaded FL bushing sizer and a Wilson micrometer hand die seater is what I finally chose to load 6 Dasher recently and they have done a fine job.

Yep, I bought two Wilson bushings to go with the sizer, guessed pretty well, and may not need another one, but no one ever ends up with just one.

.22 Hornet. Three Redding bushings.
View attachment 855553

6 Dasher stuff. Two Wilson bushings. (So far, but think I am good)
View attachment 855556

.308 dies. Two Redding & two RCBS bushings.
View attachment 855551

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That Wilson Die is a work of art imo

I didn’t mention the collet dies because you were asking about expanders.

That is another solution as the ID is “fixed” the same (collet compresses case to mandrel) as using expanders and not subject to ID variations due to wall thickness like using a die without an expander or bushings.



You could machine a custom mandrel the same as you could make a special expander both will also depend on brass condition as it can be more or less “springy” depending on its condition.

Sinclair sells an expander only die where you can change just that part as well.



Lots of ways to skin this cat.

South Prairie Jim said:

Considering the cost of powder brass Bullets and the misc reloading equipment, why not have good Dies?
They size brass like a hot knife through butter
Example- Wilson F/L bushing type dies are $59 and the bushing $12 at Brunos

Click to expand...

I'm in no way saying the dies are not worth the price, it's just that the rifles I own/shoot would not benefit from them. I'm happy with standard RCBS dies.